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Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history

 
 
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 06:56 am
@Pinochet73,
Pinochet73;14850 wrote:
"Church lead Europe, Communism, radical Islam. All proof the less civil freedom a society has the more senseless genocide occurs."

If you like Western Civilization and yet refue to give the Catholic Church credit for holding it together from AD 476 and the 11th Century, you are either ignorant or a nihilist. You remind me of someone who has been educated primarily by the television, which is a common curse upon many Americans.

Look at your representative icon here. You come across as a total relativist. Relativists aren't helping anybody. By trying to appease everyone, they appease no one. By trying to be all things to all people, they are nothing to anyone.


I am certainly not all things to all people, neither do I try to be. But I am an inclusionist who believes in acceptance of others so long as they accept others as well.

My knowledge of history is deep. So much so I CLEP'ed out of US History 1 and 2 in college (and it's not even my favorite period in History). The only "TV History" I'm guilty of is the History Channel, which I would think is anything but uniformed. I even have a decent level of knowledge about "History as told by Christian Churches" the problem with that is it's flavored with agenda, and isn't unattached enough from the history of Western Europe to provide a neutral view.

Giving the church credit for holding Europe together during and after the fall of Rome is a semi reasonable thing, but it's like giving credit to the uncle who paid your way through college, but molested you. For all the help they provided they also did allot of harm.
0 Replies
 
couchp
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 07:32 am
@Drnaline,
I think religion has 'in the name of God' killed more people than any atheist(s) have ever done. Every war is usually fought, with the pretext of 'God is on our side'. Certainly the christian church is guilty of this. I think religion like the party system in politics needs a rethink. To 'what' is debatable.
If there is a God, why isn't he (?) talking. The world is a mess, where is he.
Do I believe in God? I honestly don't know. I do believe in good people and the faith of human kindness, whether atheist, christian or islam there are good people from all creeds out there. We are all human, so, for 'War' we are all to blame.
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 01:10 pm
@Drnaline,
Quote:
Giving the church credit for holding Europe together during and after the fall of Rome is a semi reasonable thing, but it's like giving credit to the uncle who paid your way through college, but molested you. For all the help they provided they also did allot of harm.


Not that much in Europe to Europeans. By holding Europe together and uniting it, they were able to ensure Europe could effectively fight other collective powers like the Islamic Caliphate.
0 Replies
 
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 01:18 pm
@Drnaline,
My reference was to social issues, civil rights of non christians, women, and probably (although it's not well known) blacks. I'll admit it's a bit unfair to judge them by our modern standards, but it still is what it is.
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 01:26 pm
@Drnaline,
This is all relative, especially considering you look at it from a modern point of view. Anti-semitism in Europe, for example, was mainly opposed by the Church (the Pope at the time of the Black Plague pointed out there could be no Jewish conspiracy to poison the water, as Jews were dieing in equal numbers to Christians) and done by individuals or governments.

I don't think you can say civil rights. There was no such thing. Not saying they didn't deserve them, just that they didn't exist.

And blacks? Was there even that much contact with the African world, besides Arab or Moorish areas that they could do anything substantial against blacks?
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 02:50 pm
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;14912 wrote:
This is all relative, especially considering you look at it from a modern point of view. Anti-semitism in Europe, for example, was mainly opposed by the Church (the Pope at the time of the Black Plague pointed out there could be no Jewish conspiracy to poison the water, as Jews were dieing in equal numbers to Christians) and done by individuals or governments.

I don't think you can say civil rights. There was no such thing. Not saying they didn't deserve them, just that they didn't exist.

And blacks? Was there even that much contact with the African world, besides Arab or Moorish areas that they could do anything substantial against blacks?


that's why I said you coudn't probably find any examples of racisim, it's pur speculation.

BUT

your thoery of reliavity is baseless. You say I can't accuse them of civil rights violeations because there were no such things? I could say the same about China today, but wouldn't you agree they are in fact terrible violators of civil rights? Middle period Europe doesn't get a free pass because it was Christian.

You can't have your cake and eat it to: On one hand you say "God's word is timeless" and on the other you say "Well things were different then".

It's similar to the stoning of children in the 1st convenant. Child Abuse is Child Abuse, today, tomorrow, or 1500BCE.
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 03:51 pm
@Drnaline,
I disagree. There was no such concept of civil rights anywhere during the time, but China was and is surrounded by free countries. From a modern point of view, there were civil rights violations. But who would have thought about it that way then?

I never said anything about God's word. Though God's word certainly supports civil rights (in the usual definition of the word), it is a matter of interpretation. The Constitution is not God's word.
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 04:01 pm
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;14933 wrote:
God's word certainly supports civil rights


this is exactly my point, it doesn't and it isn't a matter of interpretation

In the New Testament women aren't allowed to speak in church, and must wear head coverings, while men aren't tied down by these gender specific laws. Men also rule the household in marriage.

The Apostles said that slaves should be obedient of their masters, Especially so when they have a Christian master.

A Christian master? I thought god's word supported civil rights? Where's gods outrage over slavery? Where's god declaring that women should have equal rights?

the answer is neither Yahweh nor Jesus believed in those rights, and if you read the new and old testiment you'll find the bible confirms this
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 04:59 pm
@Drnaline,
Quote:
20Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him. 21Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave. 23You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24Brothers, each man, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation God called him to.


I'll rephrase. God's word does not conflict with civil rights and civil rights for slaves can be drawn in the Bible. The above quote seems to convey that everyone is equal in God's eyes, but they must remain in their respective places. This is probably because it would be a major upset to a society where such things were widely practiced. Now that it is possible, there is no one who is in the situation of slavery in our country. As was said in the quote, they found it possible to gain their freedom and did so with quite a lot of help.
0 Replies
 
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 05:04 pm
@Drnaline,
please provide a full scriptual reference
0 Replies
 
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 05:17 pm
@Drnaline,
Colossians 3:22

22Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.


Ephesians 6:5

5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

what you said

1 Corinthians 7:23

23You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.

is in direct reference to

Romans 6:22

22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
0 Replies
 
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 05:22 pm
@Drnaline,
Infact they say obey your master as you would obey Christ himself

Ephesians 6:6

6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.

And here's the New Testament addressing slave masters who are Christian, notice there is no message that slavery is wrong

Ephesians 6:9

9And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

And here's Peter saying that you should still obey an abusive or Harsh master

1 Peter 2:18-19

18Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God.


18Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God.
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 05:55 pm
@Drnaline,
Quote:

1 Peter 2:18-19

18Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God.


It continued:

Quote:
20But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22"He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth."[e] 23When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 25For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.


So this is because it is better to live as a slave, really, than a free man, because in this you bear a cross, like Christ bore his. It is commendable to make this sacrifice when you can rebel (though most could not). The more harsh the master, the greater the cross to bear.

and before it was:

Quote:
13Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.


So authority also was necessary because it stopped evils from being commited; so they could not use being free as an excuse for evils (something many do today.)
---
To expand on Colossians:

Quote:
22Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.


Again, doing this as a sacrifice and all are equal in God's consideration.

Quote:
5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.
9And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.


There seems to be no conflict with my previous point (in this post) here. It only reinforces that all are equal in God's eyes.
--

As for the Corinthians quote, that was the one I used (among much of the preceding and following material, much better than isolating a verse) and explained.

--

The Romans quote is a metaphor of slaves to sin and slaves to righteousness, nothing to do with actual slavery:

Quote:
Slaves to Righteousness
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.

0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 06:43 pm
@92b16vx,
92b16vx;14819 wrote:
Sorry, but that is just....stupid. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot did not kill in the name of atheism, they didn't seek out none atheist and kill them, they killed in the name of communisum, and most of the people doing the killing were more than likely religious to some faith, I know lots of Nazis were catholic.

IMO Hitler was NOT an atheist, he was more an agnostic that used christianity to further propagate his cause.


The same argument could be made for the Crusades and Inquisition, but we seem to be counting them. Atheism is an integral part of communism- the philosophy is hard to accept and enforce without it.

And religious people were persecuted by those regimes for not following the state religion. The Orthodox church was suppressed in Russia and the Dalai Llama had to leave Tibet.

Nazis who were Catholic were about as Catholic as Hitler because the Vatican was oppsed to Nazism and huge amounts of Catholics were killed by the Nazis.
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 06:53 pm
@Drnaline,
Quote:
huge amounts of Catholics were killed by the Nazis.
About the same amount as Jews, but you never hear about that holocaust.
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 06:59 pm
@Drnaline,
A million or so less because altogether with Gypsies and homosexuals, etc. they were the same as Jews.

And of course you never hear of that, we can only have either one minority at a time or an obscure group of people be mass murdered for premium conspiracy theory material and diversity filled history. After all, why would Pope Pius be Hitler's Pope if Hitler killed Catholics. It just doesn't fit into the Catholic bashing.
0 Replies
 
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 07:00 pm
@Drnaline,
Sorry Regal bust justifying slavery on any terms and for any reason is wrong. There is NEVER a time when it is right to enslave another, and never a time when a man should yield to bondage. And any religion or book that would say otherwise is not the word of god IMO
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 07:11 pm
@Drnaline,
Westerners have learned to not appreciate the role of Christianity in laying the foundations of their civilization. Read up on this guy: Christopher Dawson.
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 07:12 pm
@Drnaline,
Quote:
There is NEVER a time when it is right to enslave another, and never a time when a man should yield to bondage.
Yet it happens probably thousands of times a day?
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 07:15 pm
@Silverchild79,
Silverchild79;14987 wrote:
Sorry Regal bust justifying slavery on any terms and for any reason is wrong. There is NEVER a time when it is right to enslave another, and never a time when a man should yield to bondage. And any religion or book that would say otherwise is not the word of god IMO


I never jutified slavery. As it said, if you can make yourself free, do so. But if not, as was usually the case, take up your slavery as a sacrifice. You will be rewarded. That was the message.

Civilization would have collapsed had all slaves been freed, which would put slave and master under the slaver of some other outside power before long. That's just the way it was.
 

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