Wimbledon and Bias

@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

snood wrote:
I think it's pretty common to consider all folks not anglo-saxon white as "of color".

that's a pretty broad brush to use - not many Europeans fall into the Angl0-Saxon category. Using that definition, you've got people of Swedish/Italian/French/etc etc etc backgrounds as not being "white" - not that I've met more than 3 or 4 people with truly white skin.

I think you've even managed to pull Walter H, Calamity Jane, urs and Thomas into your definition of folks "of color"

look it up, ehbeth, it's not "my definition"

~~~

Separately, Mr. Nadal is Spanish. Spain is in Europe.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

snood wrote:
I think it's pretty common to consider all folks not anglo-saxon white as "of color".

that's a pretty broad brush to use - not many Europeans fall into the Angl0-Saxon category. Using that definition, you've got people of Swedish/Italian/French/etc etc etc backgrounds as not being "white" - not that I've met more than 3 or 4 people with truly white skin.

I think you've even managed to pull Walter H, Calamity Jane, urs and Thomas into your definition of folks "of color"

~~~

And I...as I come from predominantly Celtic, not Anglo-Saxon, stock.

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I do see the point that Wimbledon has a long history of white privilege, and not just white privilege, but class privilege. I suppose there are still some aspects of that in place, as there may be some at our august US tennis facilities. I can imagine some comments have a racial background. I just don't see it in Snood's example, except for the bitchy "her rightful place" remark, and even that I may be misjudgeing.

The thing about this thread is that Nadal and Federer, power and finesse, are friends, if not close friends - there's respect going back and forth. Both are interesting men, from their different backgrounds.

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@snood,

snood wrote:

ehBeth wrote:

snood wrote:
I think it's pretty common to consider all folks not anglo-saxon white as "of color".

look it up, ehbeth, it's not "my definition"

what you said - which I quoted - is not what the definitions you offered said

anglo, saxon, and anglo-saxon have quite specific meanings

which makes

snood wrote:

I think it's pretty common to consider all folks not anglo-saxon white as "of color".

very much your definition

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I think we've all lived in different places and times. Me, I see the east coast of the u.s. as all neighborhooded out into enclaves. (What do I know, though? Nada, probably old ideas.)

Beth and I are from Toronto and LA; at least in LA's case, home of conflagrations, but also some ease, ease and conflagration rubbing elbows. I now live in a place without all so much diversity, and it is weird to me. It's natural for me not to think of race first or second re what is going on - though it may be where you are, or it may be for me in a different part of Los Angeles.

Robert has talked about Brazil and its comfort level (at least more than in the U.S., if I understand) re lots of colors.

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

I think we've all lived in different places and times.

I think this really is key. As much as we can try to look at things from different perspectives, it is difficult.

My life experience taught me that it didn't matter what colour you were - it mattered where you were from. I've come a long way from that place, but when I go back to my hometown, some people still ask if I'm UEL (United Empire Loyalist). They could get me a job if I was UEL.

The hamburgers were immigrants - as a child, I was asked if hamburgboy was Jewish, if he was from Jamaica, if he was French, was he Chinese etc etc. He was clearly "other", not UEL. The colour didn't matter, that we weren't UEL did.

hamburgboy is from Saxony. Not anglo, but at least part Saxon. Didn't matter to the locals - he was "other".

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

My mother told me stories about the irish (aka my family) walking to mass on Sundays in the Sawtelle area of west los angeles, people peering out of windows. I'll admit that is not the same as guns. But, she was from Boston, in the early nineteen hundreds, where no irish need apply. I never understood and was impatient with what I took as her paranoia, nor my aunt's about japs, so called, but they were both fearful, in my mother's case, of protestants, and my aunt about 'japs'.

This may or may not have anything to do with my having three japanese mentors in later life.

Sometimes our formation revolts.

Beth, I knew you weren't first from Toronto, I was just generalizing.

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

Beth, I knew you weren't first from Toronto, I was just generalizing.

I understand. I was appreciating your 'experience' point.

Toronto's a pretty grand place to live. You can't find a more mixed place in the world. It's glorious.

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@ehBeth,

I'm envious, really.

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(Whew)
You're right, ehBeth, the definitions don't say "anglo-saxon" (or anglo, or saxon, or anglosaxon)
But they do say any "any non-European, non-white person"

and that would include Nadal.

and that's not my definition but out of a dictionary.

2 Replies

@snood,

snood wrote:

panzade wrote:

Hello! Nadal is not a man of color!How can you cry racism?

•(formal) any non-European non-white person
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

•Person of color (plural: people of color; Commonwealth English: person of colour) is a term used, primarily in the United States and Germany, to describe all people who are not white. The term is meant to be inclusive among non-white groups, emphasizing common experiences of racism. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color

I already addressed the first definition you offered. Mr. Nadal is Spanish - so he can't fall into that definition of a person of colour.

I find the second definition a bit funny. A person of colour is a person who is not white. However, it doesn't define white. Not quite a winning definition.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

Let's explore for the hell of it, shall we?
So to your mind, a Mexican is a person of color, but not a Spanish person?

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@snood,

snood wrote:

(Whew)
You're right, ehBeth, the definitions don't say "anglo-saxon" (or anglo, or saxon, or anglosaxon)
But they do say any "any non-European, non-white person"

and that would include Nadal.

and that's not my definition but out of a dictionary.

Nadal is European; he's from Spain. So it doesn't seem to include him.

Quote:

Let's explore for the hell of it, shall we?
So to your mind, a Mexican is a person of color, but not a Spanish person?

That's why it's a stupid term.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@snood,

snood wrote:

So to your mind, a Mexican is a person of color, but not a Spanish person?

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I think a Mexican is a person of colour.

Again, I was responding to the definition you created and the ones you provided. I don't think they help the position you were hoping to buttress.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

snood wrote:

(Whew)
You're right, ehBeth, the definitions don't say "anglo-saxon" (or anglo, or saxon, or anglosaxon)
But they do say any "any non-European, non-white person"

and that would include Nadal.

and that's not my definition but out of a dictionary.

Nadal is European; he's from Spain. So it doesn't seem to include him.

Quote:

Let's explore for the hell of it, shall we?
So to your mind, a Mexican is a person of color, but not a Spanish person?

That's why it's a stupid term.

Cycloptichorn

Okay, let's look further... Laughing

I bet (look out! Unverifiable claim follows!)) that most people who dislike or avoid using the phrase person of color are negatively disposed toward the aims and ideals of political movements that are focused on rights of ethnic minorities.

I think it’s the same folks who winced at any newfangled terms like “African-American” (well, it was newfangled a while back) and who scornfully associate such terms with the dreaded “political correctness”.
See, I not only support wholeheartedly the kinds of legislative or social actions that are meant to ensure the rights of ethnic minorities, but I also support the rights of all racial groups to decide for themselves how they would like to be referred to. I’m a militant sumbitch.

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@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

snood wrote:
So to your mind, a Mexican is a person of color, but not a Spanish person?

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I think a Mexican is a person of colour.

Again, I was responding to the definition you created and the ones you provided. I don't think they help the position you were hoping to buttress.

...and I agree with you - didn't buttress it a bit. But I wasn't assuming anything, I was asking you a question to try and see who you think the term would and would not apply to. Or do you simply not see those kinds of divisions in human beings?

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I'm not Panzade, but I will say that the term 'person of color' is asinine and shouldn't be used.

In general, I agree. But not case. In this case, Snood alleged that Wimbledon reporters are discriminating against black players by over-reporting their physical abilities and under-reporting their strategical and tactical abilities. I responded to Snood by saying that the same reporters do the same to white players like Rafael Nadal. Snood countered that Nadal doesn't really count as a white player.

I think it's inevitable that at this point of the discussion, we talk about the classification of humans into races, as commonly understood. To this end, I took the liberty of checking Wikipedia's article on race. It has a map of how the five human races commonly recognized in the 20th century have been distributed over the globe after the Pleistocene. It looks like this:

Mallorca, Spain---Nadal's birthplace---is the biggest of three little Mediterranean islands just East of Central Spain. It sits firmly within the habitat of the Caucasian race.

Snood, if you have evidence that the racial classifications you apply to tennis players are shared by any substantial number of competent people, I'd be happy to look at it. But so far I don't see any.

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@snood,

Quote:

Hello?

Yeah, I wrote that to asiankobe because there's no way Nadal is not European. Maybe he thinks Mallorca is a Caribbean island.
edit
Obviously, Nadal has the Moorish heritage that many Spaniards have, but that shouldn't make him a non European

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@snood,

Snood wrote:

But they do say any "any non-European, non-white person"

and that would include Nadal.

How so? Nadal is a from Mallorca, Spain, Euorpe, with no distinguishable immigration background among his ancestors. So what exactly makes him "non-European, non-white" in your view?

1 Reply

@snood,

snood wrote:

Let's explore for the hell of it, shall we?
So to your mind, a Mexican is a person of color, but not a Spanish person?

EhBeth can respond for herself, but to my mind a Spanish person is usually not a "person of color" under the standard classifations of this term. A Mexican may or may not be a "person of color"---depending on the share of Native Americans among his or her ancestors, and on where you draw the line.

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