6
   

Does Anything In The Quantum Exceed Light Speed?

 
 
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 04:09 pm
Hi All,
I know it's only theory down there, but, is it so hard to determine (maybe with the use of math) whether or not any, or all variables at the quantum, or even sub-quantum, level - are, indeed, exceeding the speed of light?

Why I ask - When I consider the electron, and the possibility that it is potentially one event at all possible locations, I get the impression that, if so - Light speed would be very slow and ordinary in comparison to.

Any ideas or equations that prove for or against will be appreciated!

Thank you guys/gals!

Mark...
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Type: Question • Score: 6 • Views: 3,001 • Replies: 16

 
failures art
 
  3  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 04:22 pm
Why is this tagged "philosophy?"

A
R
T
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 04:27 pm
@failures art,
Hi Failures!

Because it is what it will boil down to, once the physics have been exhausted. IMO.
If I'm wrong, I apologise.

Kind regards.
Mark...
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 04:35 pm
Krumple
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 04:42 pm
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:

Hi All,
I know it's only theory down there, but, is it so hard to determine (maybe with the use of math) whether or not any, or all variables at the quantum, or even sub-quantum, level - are, indeed, exceeding the speed of light?

Why I ask - When I consider the electron, and the possibility that it is potentially one event at all possible locations, I get the impression that, if so - Light speed would be very slow and ordinary in comparison to.

Any ideas or equations that prove for or against will be appreciated!

Thank you guys/gals!

Mark...


I actually have a theory as to how the electron can be in all possible locations at the same time. I am still ironing out the concept, so bear with me, but if you have questions I'll definitely entertain them.

The electron shouldn't be thought of as a particle, or even as a wave function. Abandon both of those ideas for a minute. Instead, think of the electron as an expanding bubble of energy that expands and then almost immediately collapses. The reason it collapses is because it's expansion rate grows beyond the force which drives it's expansion, the negative charge, weak force. So it expands at the speed of light, once it reaches it's threshold it collapses, this is actually why the position of the electron is difficult to determine. It does not completely disappear because the "seed" force is still present. Also don't think of it as bursting, but instead think of it more like "breathing" expand and contraction at the speed of light.

So what is it's position then? The electron "bubble" if you will, surrounds the nucleolus of the atom and every electron as well. So if an atom has five electrons all of them completely surround the nucleolus on all sides.

So why don't the electrons interact or interfere with each other then?

They do. In fact for each additional electron the rate of expansion is actually a higher threshold meaning the energy for it's expansion and collapse is higher.

So how can electrons be stripped from atoms and maintain this expansion bubble theory?

The electron will still expand and contract even if it not captured by any atoms, however; it's expansion and contraction rate is lower.

Why is it even necessary to think of it as a bubble. Well the "edge" of the bubble is where the charge is focused. This causes an equal weak force on all sides of the electron.

So why doesn't the electron "bubble" just settle at some kind of stable expansion point? Why not find an equilibrium?

The weak force is what starts the process of expansion and what happens is cascading effect of this energy causes the expansion to continue but once the threshold is reached the weak force is not strong enough to over come the collapse to maintain the "bubble" so it condenses completely (possibly even blinks out of existence as well).

I know I haven't fully explained it but you get the very basic idea. If you have any questions, I'll explain them. If you have any math questions I'll entertain them as well but I know not everyone will care about the math which is why I left it out.

fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 04:46 pm
@mark noble,
I may be wrong but I understood that "non-locality" is a term for the finding that what were thought to be separate particles seemed to communicating instaneously. Since this would violate the speed of light axiom, the conclusion is that the particles could not be considered "separated" in space, i.e they were in fact "the same particle" simultaneously appearing in "different locations". Einstein (et al) had in fact challenged this paradoxical prediction by QM but they were forced to concede when technological advances eventually gave empirical confirmation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 04:53 pm
@Krumple,
Hi Krumple!

I see it as a bubbling process too. Not to get overly intricate right away. Could you perceive this (our) universe as having the same characteristics as an atomic particle. And - If this one effect (bubbling-electron theory) is universal (At every location) doesn't it exceed the speed of light, even preempt it?

mark...
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 04:58 pm
@djjd62,
Hi Djj,

Lovely song! Shame about the use of "curly" in the first verse.
Didn't need that.

Thank you for the song though.

have a terrific weekend, Djj.
Mark...
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 04:59 pm
@mark noble,
the alabama3 version replaces curly with f'ed up, but i couldn't find a decent version on the net
0 Replies
 
urangutan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 07:08 pm
The conversation has the same paradocial boundaries as comparing emotion to thought. Thought is a growth or expansion, while emotion is a simultaneous, co-existance of presence.

Wierd set of titles I have encountered this morning. God, Fear and the Quantum. Am I just over imaginative, tying this into a knot or is is in plain sight and I am simply stating the obvious. Of corse there is the third option not to say there are no others, that I am merely being foolish within my own domain of insight.

There is an old English gramatical.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 07:55 pm
@Krumple,
I like this idea very much.

Joe(beats my idea: electrons approaching the Speed of Light enter other dimensions)Nation
0 Replies
 
Soul Brother
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 11:13 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
I actually have a theory as to how the electron can be in all possible locations at the same time. I am still ironing out the concept, so bear with me, but if you have questions I'll definitely entertain them.

The electron shouldn't be thought of as a particle, or even as a wave function. Abandon both of those ideas for a minute. Instead, think of the electron as an expanding bubble of energy that expands and then almost immediately collapses. The reason it collapses is because it's expansion rate grows beyond the force which drives it's expansion, the negative charge, weak force. So it expands at the speed of light, once it reaches it's threshold it collapses, this is actually why the position of the electron is difficult to determine. It does not completely disappear because the "seed" force is still present. Also don't think of it as bursting, but instead think of it more like "breathing" expand and contraction at the speed of light.

So what is it's position then? The electron "bubble" if you will, surrounds the nucleolus of the atom and every electron as well. So if an atom has five electrons all of them completely surround the nucleolus on all sides.

So why don't the electrons interact or interfere with each other then?

They do. In fact for each additional electron the rate of expansion is actually a higher threshold meaning the energy for it's expansion and collapse is higher.

So how can electrons be stripped from atoms and maintain this expansion bubble theory?

The electron will still expand and contract even if it not captured by any atoms, however; it's expansion and contraction rate is lower.

Why is it even necessary to think of it as a bubble. Well the "edge" of the bubble is where the charge is focused. This causes an equal weak force on all sides of the electron.

So why doesn't the electron "bubble" just settle at some kind of stable expansion point? Why not find an equilibrium?

The weak force is what starts the process of expansion and what happens is cascading effect of this energy causes the expansion to continue but once the threshold is reached the weak force is not strong enough to over come the collapse to maintain the "bubble" so it condenses completely (possibly even blinks out of existence as well).

I know I haven't fully explained it but you get the very basic idea. If you have any questions, I'll explain them. If you have any math questions I'll entertain them as well but I know not everyone will care about the math which is why I left it out.


Krumple, your theory is very wrong in many ways. The wave function collapses because it's expansion rate grows beyond the force which drives it's expansion? I see you have never heard of decoherence. The reason a wave function collapses is due to decoherence. One entity can indeed occupy several positions simultaneously, but in order to do so it needs to be very small, why you ask? Well when a particle is small enough, say an electron, it is able to slip through the regulations of classical physics (therefore allowing it simultaneous occupation of multiple positions), however when the particle exceeds this size limit it cannot pass through, and this is all to do with the communicating of information. When a particle classifies as small enough (quantum), it is thereby so small that its surrounding environment is rather not able to peculate and extract any information from it (position, velocity,etc), since this information is not able to be conceived by its environment the particle is able to slip through no longer confined by the restricting limitations of classical physics thereby passing into the quantum. So now you can see how this precisely explains the wave function collapse that is unavoidably caused when a measurement is made. What is a measurement? a measurement of anything requires knowing some sort of information about the subject in question, and this "knowing of information" being a crucial element in the distinction between classical and quantum i.e particle or wave function, it is not hard to see where the act of measurement imposes troubles. So as you might have guessed, when a measurement is taken of the particle at hand, we are unavoidably "knowing" crucial information about the particle, eg its position, velocity, etc. So it is this "knowing", this sharing of the particles bits with the environment (in this case being the measuring apparatus used) that impedes the particle from slipping by undetected that causes it to be confined by the classical, i.e collapses the wave function.

And Mark, to answer your question, mathematically, yes. Experimentally, no.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2010 12:35 am
@Soul Brother,
Soul Brother wrote:
Krumple, your theory is very wrong in many ways. The wave function collapses because it's expansion rate grows beyond the force which drives it's expansion?


Yes. To put it another way, if you have two magnets and push together the same poles so they touch then release them, they will repel each other up to a point. However with my electron bubble theory, the weak force is too weak to actually keep them apart unlike a magnet which can actually maintain the field. So in my senario for the electron what happens is the the bubble for the negative charge expands until it reaches the neutral point of the negative charge, which immediately halts the expansion however it is too weak to maintain the field so the collapse follows almost as quick as it expanded. Once it is completely collapsed it expands again repeating the process. There is no energy required for the process, it is just a field expansion and collapse.

Soul Brother wrote:

I see you have never heard of decoherence.


Yes I know what decoherence is, but since you bring it up, you are the one who does not seem to understand what decoherence is.

Soul Brother wrote:

The reason a wave function collapses is due to decoherence.


Well first of all, there is no actual collapse of the wave function. It is just a way to explain the loss of energy.

Soul Brother wrote:

One entity can indeed occupy several positions simultaneously, but in order to do so it needs to be very small, why you ask?


I disagree with this, but I'll let you continue.

Soul Brother wrote:

Well when a particle is small enough, say an electron, it is able to slip through the regulations of classical physics (therefore allowing it simultaneous occupation of multiple positions), however when the particle exceeds this size limit it cannot pass through, and this is all to do with the communicating of information.


The bubble theory is not limited by space nor by medium. The bubble can slip through any medium so it does not actually restrict the electron. The only way you can strip and electron is by catching it at its full expansion and applying some additional energy just before the collapse occurs. That small amount of energy will strip the electron free from the nucleolus.

Soul Brother wrote:

When a particle classifies as small enough (quantum), it is thereby so small that its surrounding environment is rather not able to peculate and extract any information from it (position, velocity,etc), since this information is not able to be conceived by its environment the particle is able to slip through no longer confined by the restricting limitations of classical physics thereby passing into the quantum. So now you can see how this precisely explains the wave function collapse that is unavoidably caused when a measurement is made. What is a measurement? a measurement of anything requires knowing some sort of information about the subject in question, and this "knowing of information" being a crucial element in the distinction between classical and quantum i.e particle or wave function, it is not hard to see where the act of measurement imposes troubles. So as you might have guessed, when a measurement is taken of the particle at hand, we are unavoidably "knowing" crucial information about the particle, eg its position, velocity, etc. So it is this "knowing", this sharing of the particles bits with the environment (in this case being the measuring apparatus used) that impedes the particle from slipping by undetected that causes it to be confined by the classical, i.e collapses the wave function.


Yeah I'm bored with superposition. I think it is a cope out in a lot of ways.
0 Replies
 
g day
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Dec, 2010 07:18 pm
@mark noble,

Theoretically yes but only for very, very short periods (if they operate in relativistic bound environments) and they can't transmit information (purely random).
0 Replies
 
Tifinden
 
  0  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 04:55 pm
@mark noble,
I must say, and I hope no one else has mentioned this, but according to reasoning and substantial logic, even if you were traveling at the speed of light, you might still witness light exceed your virulence, cantering off into the distance, as unattainable as ever, at the speed of light.
0 Replies
 
Tifinden
 
  0  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 05:15 pm
@mark noble,
Perhaps, the smallest particle of matter, oscillating in the most capricious depths of the time and space fabric will cheekily exceed the speed of light, however, when the human race will understand this, or come to contradict it resolutely, it is our only hope that our little and telling particle compatriot may one day reveal himself-
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 06:03 pm
@Tifinden,
I suspect that is probably why "they" miss higgs boson time and again...they canĀ“t catch up with it... Laughing
0 Replies
 
 

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