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Does criminalizing women's clothing help to promote women's rights

 
 
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 06:03 am
Just wondering since Spain on Wednesday became another European country to advance legislation to ban burqas and other such face veils ... promoting female rights, like it was said in Belgium, and France, and ...

And on that very same Wednesday, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, known as PACE, passed a resolution urging European Union member states not to issue a ban on burqas "or other religious or special clothing." Rather, the resolution read, EU countries should focus their energies on protecting women's "free choice to wear religious or special clothing." (In other words, PACE seemed to be saying, religious freedoms and human rights are at the crux of the burqa debate. And preventing them from wearing what they want is anti-feminist.)

Spain planning burqa ban
PACE unanimously opposed to a general ban on wearing of the burqa
[NB: PACE is the parliamentary asembly og the Council of Europe. The Council of Europe covers virtually the entire European continent with 47 member countries. (= not at all related to the EU)]
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 06:26 am
I had viewed the banning of burqas as a security thing. No one knows who is wearing it and it hides those with criminal intent from identification.

Hadn't thought the ban was being advanced for the purpose of womens rights. If that be the reason behind it, I disagree. Women should have the choice to wear whatever they like, just as men do. Have they banned Muslim men from wearing their robes?
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 06:27 am
Ha! My sig line is funny in this thread.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 07:00 am
@Walter Hinteler,
"I'm going to take this choice away, in order to make you free."

Doesn't really seem logical to me.
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 07:02 am
@Walter Hinteler,
You might also be interested in this not so long ago thread:

http://able2know.org/topic/145240-1
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 07:18 am
@squinney,
Give family pressures up to and including honor killings my question is how free are these Muslin women not to wear this kind of clothings in Europe?
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Mame
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 09:48 am
@squinney,
squinney wrote:

I had viewed the banning of burqas as a security thing. No one knows who is wearing it and it hides those with criminal intent from identification.



That would be my take on it, too. I don't see anything wrong with women wearing the complete burqa (face and head covering included) if they're just going about their everyday lives... however, when security is an issue, they should have to show their face (airport, customs & immigration, getting identification, etc).

And it's not a religious requirement, from what I've read. It's cultural.

I worked with many female doctors who wore burqas but not the face covering - they had to speak with patients, families, doctors, and decided it was more effective to not wear it (the niqab, I believe it's called).

It was very easy to identify which doctor was which just from their eyes and body structure and movements (the way they stood, walked, etc). So, unless it's a security situation, let them wear what they like.

If wearing the burqa is somehow tied to forwarding women's rights, that should be their choice, not forced upon them. I know the doctors I knew that wore them wanted to, while others of their faith and culture chose not to.
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 10:49 pm
Body language and facial expression assists in interpreting the correct meaning of words.
If covered i am unable to use these concious and subconciouse signals.
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Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 07:46 pm
All Muhammad said on the matter was religious women should be modestly dressed. In the Arabian desert, this had a new twist on it. The burkha. What it really means is if you are on the beach do not dress to draw attention to yourself, but rather dress typically for the occassion.

Are we really supposed to believe that these women are so beautiful that if men looked at them they would have to rape them ? That the only way men could look at them is lustfully ? Obviously there is something seriously wrong with Arab men.

Some women are lazy and wear the burkha to prevent dressing up, others really do believe they are highly desirable, and some think their religion requires it.

Banning the burkha is not about security, it is about culture and whether people who support the burkha might be better off in Saudi Arabia, a country that does not allow Christian immigrants, though they have many Christians doing their work for Oily Dollars because they are too lazy.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2010 01:01 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter,

Irrespective of the sexual neuroses encapsulated by religiosity, "rights" are always relativistic. The "rights of society" are going to clash with "the rights of women", because we are using different reference frames.

In the particular case of "burqa banning for security reasons", it is interesting to contemplate the "logic" of "banning nudity". Smile
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BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2010 10:00 am
You know one thing that no one an address is the strong likelyhood that a large fraction of women now wearing the burqas and other such face veils in Europe are doing so not of their own free will but under pressure from their families and communities instead.

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shiva21
 
  2  
Reply Mon 17 Jan, 2011 02:09 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
No i definately will ban the burqa , I m sorry to say this really, but this is for security ,you cannot go out ,cover your face and no one knows who are you .
This is for security not something against the muslims .
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jan, 2011 03:29 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Some women are lazy and wear the burkha to prevent dressing up


That is the strangest thing I've ever heard about why some women wear the veil.

I don't feel like dressing up, so I obviously can't go into public without covering myself up. Laughing


This is aside, but I had an interesting experience last week.

2 nights in a row, I wanted to go for a walk when I came home, but it was bitchin' cold and somewhat windy. I knew if I could keep my skin covered, I'd be fine for a couple of miles.

Night 1, I wrapped a scarf around my head, tucked the ends inside my jacket, and went out with just my eyes uncovered. I also had on gloves. It was actually almost dark when I went out.
A block from my house, I passed a woman I know. She was taking a jog. I've walked by her plenty of times and we always said Hi. This time, as I came toward her, she did this looking away thing, didn't say a word. I walked down to main road, lot's traffic. Again passed someone, waiting to see if they'd say anything....nope

I then stopped in a little bead store I'd been meaning to go into many times. There were like 3 ladies working there, and they all looked at me, not with fear like I was going to rob them, but with what I thought was a strange look.

all in all, that kind of bummed me out.

The next night, I decided to do that again, but somehow I had a different attitude. I had more time, so I more carefully arranged my scarf so it was more comfortable. Again though, only my eyes showed. This time I just stayed within myself, and after a while, it was like the world went away. There were no worries that I was going to get unwelcome looks or catcalls from men. In fact, I passed a group of Mexican men (and I mean men born in Mexico, and rough worker types, probably illegals from N. Mexico) I'll be honest, sometimes passing a group of these men makes me a little nervous. I don't know what they are saying, they look at women boldly, as if it is their right to ogle, etc. This time, it was as if I didn't exist! I was starting to like this. I stopped on one occassion to read a sign, and the guy at the door of the store didn't try to entice me in, or speak to me. I stopped a couple of more times to gawp at something, and felt I was in a very private space. I actually did feel an aura of respect about myself. Like I wasn't out there for all the world to see.

It was really nice actually. I can start to see why many muslim women like it.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jan, 2011 06:13 pm
@chai2,
I know what you mean. I talked about this with my dental hygenist, who was once an Air Force Sergeant stationed in Turkey. They were never expected to cover, but a friend of hers (Anglo) in a more conservative area did sometimes wear the full burkha. She just liked being invisible, sometimes.

PS. N. Mexico is part of the same country as Texas. Do let us know if you really decide to leave, though.
chai2
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 08:02 am
@roger,
roger wrote:


PS. N. Mexico is part of the same country as Texas. Do let us know if you really decide to leave, though.


I didn't mean New Mexico, but Northern Mexico!

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saab
 
  3  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 08:28 am
If a woman likes to wear a burqa, a weil or whatever it might/might not be her descision.
As we often in the western world have to show our faces in connection with ID´s the women have to wear weils that can be removed away from the face.
A chadri or burqa(?) which covers a woman from head to toe cannot be removed for ID check. She has to lift it up and more or less take it off.
Those should be forbidden in our society, but not that a woman can wear a weil or headscarf. It is not long ago that we western women covered our heads with a scarf or hat. It was good in cold weather, it was the right thing when the sun was shining and it looked elegant when well dressed.
To criminalizing women´s clothing can hardly promote women´s rights.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 08:36 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
And on that very same Wednesday, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, known as PACE, passed a resolution urging European Union member states not to issue a ban on burqas "or other religious or special clothing." Rather, the resolution read, EU countries should focus their energies on protecting women's "free choice to wear religious or special clothing." (In other words, PACE seemed to be saying, religious freedoms and human rights are at the crux of the burqa debate. And preventing them from wearing what they want is anti-feminist.)


It has to really help a hell of a lot to make it legal for these women to go without burkas when their husbands, fathers, uncles, sons, nephews, and grandfathers are going to mutilate or kill them for doing so. The outright ban does a much better job of fixing the problem (while simultaneously eliminating much of the threat of female suicide bombers walking around with dynamite belts under burkas).



saab
 
  3  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 09:25 am
@gungasnake,
A woman in thight jeans and a T-shirt can carry dynamite in a rucksack, in a shoppingbag, under her top looking pregnant, in a babypram, in a carrier (?) for musical instruments, in her sportsbag..........
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