The veil

Forums: France, Burqas, Freedom And Dress
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Burqa wearing has come up again in France.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/26/france.burqa.ban/index.html
http://www.theage.com.au/national/most-would-back-burqa-ban-20100525-wb1g.html?autostart=1

I have very mixed feelings, but to date agree with Wajahat Ali in her article today on Slate.com, especially given her noted exceptions towards the end of the piece that I think is worth reading:
Veiled Threat

My own anti burqa emotion probably starts with my later reaction to myself almost joining the convent in 1959, a time when that order of roman catholic nuns was among the most conservative in the country (US) and years away from any modification of their habits, if they ever did modify them. I could ramble on and on about how I don't like burqas, but I'll not go into it. And yet I see Wajahat Ali's points, given, as I said, her stated exceptions.

There is on slate.com today a magnum photo series on variations re veil, burqa, hijab and some photos of protests re France's stance back in 2004.
link to photo series - http://todayspictures.slate.com/20100525/
At least one of the photos triggers my anger, one strikes me as funny and likeable, and several induce my sympathy.

There was at least one other a2k thread on this subject, probably in 2004, and
I'll try to find that and link it.

Opinions?

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I can't immediately find that old thread. Oh, well.

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

i remember that thread ( topic ) caused a lot of discussion - but where is it ?

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I think that until and unless Islam is controlled by non hate filled extremists that states have the right to limit the freedom of Islamic individuals. We see over and over again Islamists trying to other throw sectarian governments, and these governments are entitled to take protective action.

While I am a proponent of personal freedom we must always be aware of reality and be willing to compromise beliefs for self interest. In this case the reality of the culture wars between a radical Islam and Western Civilization can not be ignored.

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I think the idea of legislating what people are and are not allowed to wear is pretty silly. Are we going to come up with some percentage of the face that must be free of obstruction? Do beards count? It's ridiculous. This proposed ban in France is simply religious intolerance, IMO.

On the other hand, if someone decides to walk around with their face covered, they should probably expect to be viewed with suspicion. If someone in a burqa tried to write me a check, I'd damn sure be checking her driver's license.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Quote:

I think the idea of legislating what people are and are not allowed to wear is pretty silly

Would you feel the same way about KKK Garb? How about Swastikas? Braless women in see through shirts?

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@hawkeye10,

i would love to see more braless women in see through t shirts

KKK members and nazis don't really bother me either

i think that someone who wants to wear a face covering, has to uncover for any official document photo (passport, drivers licence, etc) and should have to uncover if requested at security checkpoints (airports, border crossings, etc)

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

I don't buy that islam is controlled by hate filled extremists. They just get more press.

Did you read the ali article? Her exceptions at the end of it help me support her view.

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

agree about the majority of islam not controlled by extremists, the problem is, the majority who aren't extremist, aren't very vocal in their condemnation of the radicals

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@hamburgboy,

I probably don't have the right key words for the google/a2k search window. It might have been a dlowan thread - but also maybe not.

I'll see if I can pull up anything by tags, but not right now. A lot of old threads were never tagged - I did that for a few categories and assume it was silly of me - especially when I went nuts while laughing and tagged all the western breakfast threads - and I know a few others tagged oldies, or selected oldies.

1 Reply

@djjd62,

Yes, and so does Ali.

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@djjd62,

Quote:

agree about the majority of islam not controlled by extremists

Islam has been controlled by the fundamentalist for hundreds of years. Most of them feel no different about proselytizing then Evangelical Missionaries feel about non Christians. The "other" is something to be fixed, to be shown the way towards righteousness. You ignore this reality at your own risk, I am not going there.

On the other hand, if they can demonstrate a willingness to co-exist I would feel differently.

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@djjd62,

Women should be allowed to wear what they want to. JMHO. For ID purposes (driver's license/passport photos, etc.) the face should be visible, of course.

1 Reply

@djjd62,

Fear in a big motivator, but I've no idea how that might work in many different communities. Plus there is the rest of us yammering about islamofascists, which would be offputting to me if I were a regular old muslim. Of course it it not all of the rest of us, but it could seem like it, especially if people in mixed communities turn against ordinary muslims.

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@hamburgboy,

Quote:

i remember that thread ( topic ) caused a lot of discussion - but where is it ?

Someone might have misplaced it in an inside pocket of a burqa and it might have been thrown in with the washer machine. So of course you can't find it silly. Wink

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@Irishk,

On the other hand, what is the value of a good picture on a drivers license when it has to be compared to a veil?

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@djjd62,

Quote:

i would love to see more braless women in see through t shirts

Let's flip it around and ask your opinion on assless pants for very large obese men? Embarrassed

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@ossobuco,

From "Veiled Threat"

Quote:

France is selfishly using women as silent chess pawns in the greater game of cultural domination and control

This is anthropomorphic claptrap. What the writer does by using phrases like this is to underscore their own perception of close proximity of "self identity" to "group identity" (aka tribalism) which ironically forms a logical basis for their lack of "individual freedom" as seen by non-tribal observers. To then lump such observers together as a single entity such as "France" or "the West" is nothing more than a simplistic projective defence mechanism on their part.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
I think the idea of legislating what people are and are not allowed to wear is pretty silly

Would you feel the same way about KKK Garb? How about Swastikas? Braless women in see through shirts?

Yup. Wear the sheets, wear the swastikas, wear the confederate flag, wear the mullet, wear the handlebar mustache, wear whatever you damned well please.

The idea that the majority of Islam is controlled by extremists is silly, though.

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@roger,

I would assume it wouldn't have to be compared to a veil, but that is another whole ball of wax with legalities. Sheriff/sharif tears veil from woman..
Or woman must unveil upon being stopped. Each with its ickyness.

0 Replies

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