12
   

If We Dropped A Billion Balls From The Same Height.

 
 
g day
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 04:02 pm
@raprap,
Only if time is quantised, which we don't know yet. If time is not quantised then ever interaction may change the outcome - so long as its doesn't invalidate the Uncertainity principal. The point's rather abstract - as our ability to measure to this level - well we'd need another 10 ^20 improvement in accuracy to probe dwon from atomic levels to Planck levels of reality.

If spacetime is scale invariant (fractal) at those levels the answer to the question becomes even more unsual. But at least this gives a framework to consider this sort of question.

Cheers!
0 Replies
 
AM1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Dec, 2010 12:17 pm
@mark noble,
Hello Mark,

Since I'm new member of this forum, I assume that my respnse
is not so actual.

However , I want is to make something clear:

According to what has been wriiten before, under the assumption that
the balls don't bump into each other in their way to the ground and the air resistance is neglectable, they will reach to the ground at the same time.

According to Newton law of motion, the gravitation force that
is activated on the balls depends on their mass only, and its value is mg.
(m is the mass of each ball, g is constnt and equals to 9.81m/sqrsec approxim.)

URL: http://able2know.org/reply/post-4187552

URL: http://able2know.org/reply/post-4187552)
It does not matter the height each ball is dropped from.
However the time it takes to each one of them to reach to the ground depends
on the height they are dropped from, and its value is (2gh)^0.5.(h is the height where the bals are located at the beginning, g is constnt). So according to this formula, if they are dropped from the same height, the time it takes is the same to each one of them.

If we drop a feather and a heavy body in vacuum from the same height,
they'll reach to the ground in the same time, although there is a difference
between the weights. In real life, the heavy body reaches first due to
air resistance that delays the feather

URL: http://able2know.org/reply/post-4187552.

Thank you,
Amos
[email protected]






URL: http://able2know.org/topic/153538-1
spidergal
 
  3  
Reply Wed 22 Dec, 2010 01:02 pm
I'm such a pervert. The first thing I thought about when I saw the thread title was hundred male genitalia falling from the same height.

Sorry. Go on, gentlemen and ladies.
0 Replies
 
g day
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Dec, 2010 06:06 pm
@AM1,
AM1

Your analysis about dropping a feather and heavy body in a vaccuum (which is technically wrong if you get precise enough measuring time) as the three bodies each have mass - so as you add each new body to the equation it changes (ever, ever so slightly) the barycentre of the N body equation.

The way you simplified the argument - you viewed the planet as a constant and had the feather and a heavy weight falling toward it. In reality each has mass so you have a 3-Body equation to solve - each body is falling towards the other two according to how each warps spacetime around it. So if you could record events to even near a Planck level precision of time (10 ^ -45 seconds) - then a 1kg weight, a 10 gram feather and a 10^ 26 kg planet will all fall towards each others centre of mass.

Now to the billion ball hypothesis. You have to know their mass and distribution in space to the planet if you are dealing with Planck levels of time precision - as the billions balls tiny mass will affect the planet's trajectory in spacetime.

Fun isn't it how traditional thinking gets thrown out if the precision you want in your answers approaches the limits of our physical theoretical models.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2010 05:22 pm
And then there is the oddity that golf balls would beat similarly sized smooth balls to the ground...
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  0  
Reply Fri 7 Jan, 2011 01:56 pm
Hi guys!

What I am trying to determine (albeit clearly immeasurable) is whether ANY 2 events occur simultaneously.

Imagine touching a pen to a piece of paper (It leaves a mark of ink). Do this a million times in variable locations on the paper and you have one big blotch. Speed this process up (massively) and it could appear to take no more than an instant.

But, ultimately, it is a succession of events.

Now apply this to the universe.

Any feedback would be appreciated Smile

Thank you and have a great everything!
Mark...
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Jan, 2011 11:03 am
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:

Hi guys!

What I am trying to determine (albeit clearly immeasurable) is whether ANY 2 events occur simultaneously.

They do not. Quantum uncertainty prevents simultaneity when measured at small enough levels.
0 Replies
 
prithul
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Jan, 2011 01:08 pm
@mark noble,
if theres no resistance of air and all the balls fall from the exact same height,each and every ball will hit ground at the same time.the balls dont have to be of the same weight or shape.actually they dont even have to be balls.if u take a feather and a stone and drop them provided that the above mentioned criteria are met,they will fall at the same time.it sounds weird but its Galilio's 1st law of fallimg body...hope that answers the question.
0 Replies
 
David Smith
 
  2  
Reply Sun 16 Dec, 2012 05:31 pm
@rosborne979,
"In religion you have certainty without proof.
In science you have proof without certainty."

I like that, I'm gonna use it but I would also say that:
' in science you have probability with no possibility of truth and in Jesus you have truth with no possibility of probability'

If you follow Poppers reasoning then 100% true i.e. no possibility of probability then you are outside the remit of science because there is no possibility of falsifiability.

Regards Dave
mark noble
 
  0  
Reply Fri 21 Dec, 2012 12:07 pm
@David Smith,
Sorry David, but I don't appear to have the 'Reply to all' ability.

So I'm replying here, but not to you.
Unless you understand 'Billy Meier's' meeting with Jesus (who loathed the name 'Jesus' btw). And was just a clever fella called Jmmanuel....then this is of little relation:)

NO two objects can occupy the same location in space/time -spacetime - therefore NO two events can occur simultaneously.

Time is the effect of the duration between events, not vice versa.
It is the event that is physical, not time - time is just a measuring tool....a label.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2013 09:26 am
If the balls have the same size, mass, are dropped from the same height with zero initial speed, there is no wind effect, and the balls are not so far apart to encounter differences in the strength of gravity, which varies very slightly at different locations, they will hit the ground simultaneously in the real world and in theory.
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Dec, 2013 07:48 am
Been thinking about that after a snort and have come to the conclusion that the standard deviation is a function of the independent variables you can control with your ball fall model.

Rap
0 Replies
 
Banana Breath
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Sep, 2015 12:22 pm
With questions like this, you will get different answers from people depending on their background/education and frame of reference. Engineers as a rule see a much different problem than mathematicians do. Mathematicians will look at the formulas, distance being absolute (as is typical in math problems) and equal, and say that they will all land at the same time. Any engineer however should be able to tell you that they won't; this is the answer you're looking for if you want the real-world answer. There are a myriad of reasons why, including slight irregularities of the balls, even if they were manufactured with the intention that they be identical. Air is a chaotic medium into which you drop these balls. It is transparent, but it is very real with density variations, eddies, temperature variations and so forth. As a ball passes through a temperature/pressure/density/humidity fluctuation patch, these will alter its speed and path, it will invariably introduce a wobble since such fluctuations will never be perfectly perpendicular to the path of the ball. Wobbles will introduce eddies, eddies will introduce drag, drag will affect the speed of the ball.
Some of the best research related to this topic has been from the golf world, where manufacturers have for years tried to develop balls that would travel further when hit, and subtle refinements of the surface characteristics (including dimples) have profoundly altered their aerodynamic properties.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/251716774_A_study_of_golf_ball_aerodynamic_drag
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Apr, 2016 08:53 am
@Banana Breath,
You are bypassing the issue - No 2 things can occur simultaneously - Every occurence is seperate (temporally). Even the 'measurement' problem is utter bollux.
Just because the speed of something's positioning is perceivable, only by 'recognised' (accepted) bollux einsteins' 'stolen', incorrect calculations (E=MC2) doesn't make it true.
Atoms do NOT (Nothing does) occupy 2 seperate temporal locations simultaneously.
The particle travels billions of times faster than light and to us (Slow-perceivers) only APPEARS to be in 2 places simultaneously.
Try 'Tesla'.
Banana Breath
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Apr, 2016 10:20 am
@mark noble,
Obviously you failed math.
Mathematical formulas produce the same result each and every time they are computed, and mathematically computing the falling time of a billion balls, or a trillion, quadrillion or googleplex of balls from the same height will produce the same mathematical result.
I already pointed out the limitations of the mathematical approach and accounted for the factors that keep the math from accounting for real world results.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Apr, 2016 10:37 am
@Banana Breath,
False physics= False calculations.
Do you agree?
Banana Breath
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Apr, 2016 10:49 pm
@mark noble,
It's not so much false as it is incomplete. But formulas that get you "99% of the way there" can be useful in the same way that other types of approximation are. The problems arise when someone mistakes an approximation for a definite statement of indisputable fact.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Apr, 2016 05:28 am
@Banana Breath,
I agree.
Question for you.
At what elevation (minimal) can, from the surface of earth's crust, we/anyone see the curviture of said planet?
Approx will suffice.
Banana Breath
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Apr, 2016 06:32 am
@mark noble,
-1,400.9 feet

That's the elevation of the Dead Sea, just over 1400 feet below sea level. Because the surface is usually ripple-free, it is effectively a level-but-rounded surface over 31 miles long. Sitting in the water, you can lower your eyes to near the surface, and the rise in the middle part of the Dead Sea will actually obscure things on the other side; I've done this when I visited.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Apr, 2016 06:42 am
@Banana Breath,
So, the curviture (12k) of the earth is visible from the dead sea?
I'd guess at 120 miles from the surface - Are you mad?
 

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