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Oz Election Thread #4 - Gillard's Labor

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2011 07:55 pm
@ragnel,
Quote:
Olga, I've mentioned before I do not often get involved in political arguments. I do believe everyone is entitled to their own views and I do read your posts with interest (and sometimes I even agree with you!).

However, I feel the need to tell you that I do NOT appreciate you using the forum to raise money for your cause.

Sorry, darl, I don't mean to be bitchy, but I just had to say it.

Fair enough, ragnel.
I don't think you are being bitchy.

Clearly I do have strong views on this issue, but I did attempt to remove the requests for funding from the quoted parts of the email I received. Couldn't do the same with the links GetUp provided within the text though, though.

0 Replies
 
ragnel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2011 08:02 pm
@msolga,
Yes, The worms have finally turned!

Not that the die-hard Labor supporters are worms, but 16 years of being milked dry with little result, continuing corruption, in-fighting and back-stabbing in high places, utter contempt for the plebs, etc have all combined to create a loud 'THAT'S ENOUGH!' among the voters. Selling Energy Australia (the electricity company) cheaply to the Chinese was, I think the straw and Julia's carbon tax announcement was the hand that placed it on the camel's back.

Now one can only hope and pray that the Coalition will do something to get the state back on track before they, too, start carving up the pie.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2011 08:17 pm
@ragnel,
Well it certainly was a stunning rejection of Labor!
How much of it had to do with the party's control by the NSW right, do you think? (If this is further ammunition for the right's demise I'll be absolutely delighted!)

We experienced a similar rejection of Labor in Victoria at our not-so-long-ago election. Though not quite so dramatic a fall from grace!
It was very much a rejection of a government which had totally lost touch with the electorate (say nothing of its members!) for pretty much an unknown quantity Liberal alternative. A vote for change, as much as anything else, I think. Trouble is, the replacement government is now starting to show cracks, too. Broken promises, ill-judged policies .. etc, etc ..
It's turned out (pretty quickly!) to be not quite the squeaky clean transparent alternative many of us were hoping for.
Seems like whichever side you vote for (I didn't vote for either of the big 2) , you just end up the bloody government! Wink
ragnel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2011 09:56 pm
@msolga,
Yes, I think it was a rejection of those same back-room boys who have been pulling the strings for so long, setting up puppets and then dumping them when the voters get noisy. Everyone is so sick of it. I didn't really like Kristina Kenneally, but I feel sorry for her.

I think I made an observation when Julia Gillard became PM that I feared she was made leader purely as a 'face' for these people, and that her being a woman made it easier for them to say she couldn't handle the job if things went wrong. Regular contributors to this thread all seemed to think I was overdoing the 'female' bit. Sadly I think not. Already the comments are starting. So unfair - Kristina was handed a whip, led to the dead horse and instructed to keep beating it until it got up and ran.

New South is in a bad way.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2011 11:04 pm
@ragnel,
Quote:
Yes, I think it was a rejection of those same back-room boys who have been pulling the strings for so long, setting up puppets and then dumping them when the voters get noisy. Everyone is so sick of it.

Well, as I said, if this election result hastens their departure from control of the Labor Party, I certainly won't be complaining!
There is a certain lack of vision which marks their endeavors. To put it politely. Wink
And (in my honest opinion) the Labor Party is lost without clear vision.
That's why so many former Labor Party members & supporters have defected to the Greens.

Quote:
I didn't really like Kristina Kenneally, but I feel sorry for her.

I know very little about Kristina Kenneally & her political affiliations & history within the Labor Party. (Not being from NSW) she seemed to come from nowhere as the latest new leader. You would know a whole lot more about all this than I do.

However, I don't envy anyone being given the opportunity to lead a party & government in an election under such circumstances. The NSW Labor government had been well & truly on the nose with the electorate for years before she became leader.
(What is this Labor thing about giving women a chance when it's too late to influence the electorate? I saw much the same thing happen to Joan Kirner in Victoria. A capable politician (who happened to be a woman) who was finally given her chance when it was way too late. The Labor government had already done its dash with the electorate. She was in an impossible situation. Why wasn't she given the opportunity to lead in better political times?
... Having said that, I can't think of a single Liberal woman politician who has even gotten this far. )

Quote:
I think I made an observation when Julia Gillard became PM that I feared she was made leader purely as a 'face' for these people, and that her being a woman made it easier for them to say she couldn't handle the job if things went wrong. Regular contributors to this thread all seemed to think I was overdoing the 'female' bit.

My own view is that it had more with her being seen as a "puppet" of the Right faction (in the Rudd demotion) than her being a woman.
Her history up until that point had been pretty impressive in the Labor government. Kevin Rudd was so often absent (on o/seas government business) that she was virtually running the country in his absence. Very competently. She'd shown she was perfectly capable of being a good PM.
It was the association with the ALP right (& the resultant incredibly pragmatic & dispiriting election campaign which followed) which undermined her credibility with many ALP voters. Especially the left of the party. The ALP appeared to stand for not much at all apart from winning office again.
I really wish she hadn't accepted that poisoned chalice, because I think she undermined her own political credibility as a result of having done so.
Her time for leadership would have come anyway, automtically, I'm certain.





0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 02:45 am
A recent (ABC) Drum article written by Barrie Cassidy.
"conviction politicians"

I'm asking the question he asks in the last paragraph: who do you think our genuine conviction politicians are in 2011?

I need to think a bit about this myself, before I can answer! Smile :


Quote:
Are you with me, Abbott asked Turnbull: I am not, he said
By Barrie Cassidy
Updated Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:26pm AEDT


http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200912/r482928_2469038.jpg
Former Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull has lashed out at new Leader Tony Abbott over his climate policy.

Conviction politicians are hard to find in Australia these days.

Ten years ago, the then Liberal Party federal director, Lynton Crosby, said his research turned up two genuine conviction politicians - John Howard and Bob Brown.

But today, the leaders of the two major parties - Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott - are constantly wrestling with the concept, confusing the public about their positions on key policies. Their approach to climate change is the most graphic demonstration of that.


Gillard by all accounts was instrumental in persuading Kevin Rudd to drop an ETS when he was running the country. Then, as leader and in the run up to the election, she ruled out a carbon tax.

Now she is arguing passionately for a tax and eventually an ETS.

Abbott one day questions the science and the next declares that man made climate change is a reality.

Gillard, from the Labor Party's left, an atheist with a live-in boyfriend, nevertheless resists gay marriage and euthanasia. The public wonders whether that is her political, as opposed to her personal position.

The vulnerability of both leaders was on display in the parliament yesterday as they stood toe to toe and hurled insults at one another.

Abbott said of Gilllard that the public sees "wooden Julia, teary Julia, all the way with LBJ Julia, the George Washington never tell a lie Julia." But, he said, they never see the truthful Julia.

He said if she really was a conviction politician then "she should have the guts to face the people, to seek a mandate for the carbon tax."

Gillard said of Abbott that he was a hollow, bitter man who constantly got the big judgments wrong, whether it be on the flood levy or the mining tax.

She said he was not a liberal in the tradition of liberals past and that "even John Howard went to an election proposing an ETS".

Gillard said the public was "disgusted by his negativity and repulsed by his arrogance" and that he "doesn't stand for one thing that would improve the lives of Australian families".

The fact is that both major parties in recent years have assumed the default position - not doing or saying anything that might upset people.

Only now is the government breaking free from that self imposed constraint and striking out with apparent conviction on climate change. Without putting too much weight on consecutive Newspolls, the tactic seems to have gone down well with a lot of people. As climate change gathers momentum as an issue Abbott's approval rating has suffered and Gillard has opened up a 19 point gap as preferred prime minister.

If that trend holds, then it's worth raising the question: what would have happened had Labor not met the Coalition half way during the election campaign on issues like climate change and a big Australia? Would a sharper focus on those issues have given the public a better sense of Abbott's real dispositions?

Clearly now, Abbott feels he needs a boost to his "direct action" policy on climate change. He recently sat down with former leader Malcolm Turnbull and asked him whether he would now embrace the Coalition's policy. Turnbull said he could not.

Abbott then tried to persuade him to at least soften his stance in some way; offer a gesture.

But again Turnbull refused telling Abbott that he had to understand he felt absolutely committed to his position.

The conversation is evidence that if Turnbull is intent on one day again leading the Liberal Party, it will be on his terms. He refused to give an inch when his leadership was challenged, and as a result, he went down by one vote. Had he offered the party just a semblance of compromise, he probably would have survived. And still he remains true to his convictions.

If Lynton Crosby was to update his research after 10 years, whose name do you think would now emerge as a genuine conviction politician? But the Coalition is unlikely to ask the question for fear they may not like the answer.

First posted Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:21am AEDT


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/25/3173248.htm
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 02:57 am
@msolga,
OK, I've come up with 3 already ... and am still thinking, thinking, thinking ....
But I won't say at this stage.
I want to hear what you folk say!
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 03:17 am
@msolga,
I believe the independants are conviction politicians.
It scares me a little that Bob Katter is one of them. He's a loose cannon but his heart is in the right place. He just cant see long term and past his constituents interests to the bigger (whole of country and world) picture. I think thats a result of isolation.

Bob Brown Obviously is a conviction pollie.

But more than that, I want pollies to be able to change their minds. and to be able to change their minds. To be able to say This is my position and 2 weeks later soften or change that stance on advice or as a result of feedback from the electorates.

What I dont want is for pollies to change their position based on paid lobbying by big business or self interested groups but to be allowed take these concerns into account when poducing policy.

I also want for electors to go back to casting votes for a local meber NOT the party. Elect the person that you think can best represent you, your values and your elctorate from the pool of candidated available.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 03:48 am
@dadpad,
We are very much on the same page, dp.
My initial 3 were: Malcolm Turnbull, Andrew Wilkie (independent) & Bob Brown. (Leader of the Greens in federal parliament.)
I'd like to put Greg Combet (Labor) in there, but I'm not 100% certain at this stage.

Bob Katter is an interesting choice. I think he's been very brave (given his background) since the last election. He definitely deserves a pat on the back. So far, anyway ...
Quote:
But more than that, I want pollies to be able to change their minds. To be able to say This is my position and 2 weeks later soften or change that stance on advice or as a result of feedback from the electorates.

Yes. But I'd want such changes to be based on say, fresh information which has been presented to them. For the "right" reasons, in other words. Not based on polling results.
On the other hand, I admired (small "l" Liberals like) Petro Georgio & Judith Troeth enormously for sticking to their principles on asylum seekers (etc) in the face of what must have been incredible pressure in John Howard's government.

Quote:
I also want for electors to go back to casting votes for a local meber NOT the party. Elect the person that you think can best represent you, your values and your elctorate from the pool of candidated available.

I understand where you're coming from, dp.
The trouble is, often these days the local politician's policy positions can be pretty much identical to their party's policy.
I tend to vote for the polices I want these days & not so much for a particular party anymore.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 03:57 am
@msolga,
Any other opinions, Oz folk?
Who are our "conviction politicians" in 2011?
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 04:11 am
@msolga,


msolga wrote:
I'd like to put Greg Combet (Labor) in there, but I'm not 100% certain at this stage.

Hes a pollies pollie, doing his job supporting the party line. Watch him being interviewed and you will see him answer the question he want you to ask rather than the question you actually did ask and if he doesnt like the answer should give he'll just blame the opposition or the last government. He's good at it though, you really have to watch.

dadpad wrote:
But more than that, I want pollies to be able to change their minds. To be able to say This is my position and 2 weeks later soften or change that stance on advice or as a result of feedback from the electorates.

msolga wrote:
Yes. But I'd want such changes to be based on say, fresh information which has been presented to them. For the "right" reasons, in other words. Not based on polling results.

Correct, and to be able to cite the evidence and articulate the reason why their stance has changed. I'm convinced they believe the electorate is too dumb/unble to understand so avoid explaining.

0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 04:14 am
Dadpad, what is the name of the Victorian government independent MP from East Gippsland who lost his at the last state election? The one who did so much work toward restoring the Snowy River flow?
I'd put him in that "conviction" category. He was certainly very committed!
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 04:19 am
@msolga,
do you mean state?
Craig Ingram?
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 04:23 am
@dadpad,
Yes, state pollie.

Quote:
Craig Ingram?

That's who I meant!
Thanks. My mind went blank, trying to remember his name.
Thoroughly committed, he was.
Too bad he's lost his seat.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 05:40 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
Well it certainly was a stunning rejection of Labor!
How much of it had to do with the party's control by the NSW right, do you think? (If this is further ammunition for the right's demise I'll be absolutely delighted!)


Something I was wondering about yesterday, in my discussion with ragnel, following the NSW election result.

Shaun Carney's article in this morning's Age.

I do hope he's right about this!!!


Quote:

The death of politics, Richo-style

March 28, 2011/the AGE
http://images.theage.com.au/2011/03/27/2254966/art_svOPED_MARCH28-200x0.jpg
Julia Gillard and Kristina Keneally. Photo: Andrew Meares

The "whatever it takes" school of Labor politics has been shut down by Saturday's massacre in NSW.

Quote:
A GENERATION ago, the New South Wales Right grouping within the Labor Party was considered a political outfit par excellence. In Labor's miserable months after the Whitlam collapse, it had demonstrated that the ALP could still win elections when Neville Wran took office in 1976. Within the Hawke government, the most talented politician ever produced by the NSW Right, Paul Keating, played a stellar role and eventually won the prime ministership.

The faction's chief backroom operator during that time, Graham Richardson, who refined and deployed new and effective forms of electoral campaigning, became a national figure in his own right. He encapsulated his - and his faction's - modus operandi in the title of his memoir: Whatever It Takes. When the ruthless manner of the NSW Right worked, it was a thing to behold. When it did not work, which was the case for at least the last four years of the Iemma-Rees-Keneally government, it was a joke, an embarrassment, a disgrace.

On Saturday, the voters of NSW killed the Labor Right's view of politics, a style that obsesses about the short term, eschews hard decisions in favour of populism and favours intrigue for its own sake. They then gave it a pauper's burial and danced on the grave. And then they threw a party, which is likely to go on for many years.


Of course, the NSW Right itself lives on. But do its members understand that their way of campaigning, communicating and negotiating are dead? This is the vital question when the 2011 NSW election result is assessed for its national significance. ....


Quote:
The NSW Right made and then unmade Rudd as Labor leader. Then it moved on to Gillard. The central player in these manoeuvres was Mark Arbib, a former NSW state secretary, now a federal minister.

Gillard's initial liaison with the NSW Right was a Faustian pact. She embraced its political methods: an exhaustive and unyielding reliance on focus-group research that eventually converts political leaders into followers and shreds credibility.

Guided by another ex-NSW party secretary Karl Bitar, who had been elevated to the federal secretary's post, Gillard lost last year's election but managed to hang on by securing the support of independents Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott.

There are signs that after six months of doing things the NSW Right's way, Gillard is heading off in a different direction. Two months ago, she pushed out her chief of staff Amanda Lampe, who, as a former press secretary to ex-NSW premier Bob Carr, was steeped in the ways of the NSW Right, in favour of a Victorian, Ben Hubbard. Earlier this month, Bitar also got the chop.


Quote:
There will be plenty of analysis about what the NSW result means for the Gillard government. The truth is, no one can say for certain. Maybe a boil for Labor has been lanced, maybe not. What we do know is that at the federal election only seven months ago, when the state Labor government in NSW was well and truly shot and headed for Saturday's monumental drubbing, the ALP under Gillard won 48.8 per cent of the vote after preferences and got enough marginal seats in Sydney to allow it to keep governing. On Saturday, state Labor achieved about 36 per cent.

The ''whatever it takes'' school of Labor politics has been shut down. The surviving alumni will need to learn how to be contrite and pick up a whole new way of political conduct. All Gillard needs to do is to ignore everything they tell her.


http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/the-death-of-politics-richostyle-20110327-1cbw9.html
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 05:46 pm
@msolga,
http://images.theage.com.au/2011/03/28/2255519/petty4-620x0.jpg
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 05:49 pm
@msolga,
http://images.theage.com.au/2011/03/24/2250459/1_Moir-250311-600x400.jpg
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2011 05:51 pm
@msolga,
http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2011/03/27/1226029/017004-bill-leak-280311-web.jpg
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 02:53 am
Oh bugger, here we go again!
Can't Abbott & the conservatives think of some new targets to persecute for a change?
Lowest common denominator populist politics. Neutral Rolling Eyes

http://images.theage.com.au/2011/04/02/2276348/Tandberg-Bludgers-2-Apr-600x400.gif
0 Replies
 
Prickle
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2011 12:49 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Any other opinions, Oz folk?
Who are our "conviction politicians" in 2011?


Pauline Hanson
 

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