4
   

Oz Election Thread #4 - Gillard's Labor

 
 
Dutchy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jan, 2012 05:02 pm
@msolga,
msolga there is only one solution to the boat people problem. Send them all back where they came from and make them apply to enter the Country through normal channels, like hundreds of thousands of us from Europe had to do! They only have to send one load back and there will be no more boats heading this way. Unfortunately we have weak leaders, both Labor and Liberal, who are unable to make strong decisions.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jan, 2012 05:32 pm
@Dutchy,
Ah, Dutchy ....
I think the problem is far more complex than that, though I agree we need a far more orderly & workable system of "processing" refugees.
But "sending them back to where they came from" would mean returning them to Indonesia. Can you imagine the logistics & political implications of that? It is just not going to happen.

My feeling is that the Australian government should seriously work at a solution which directly involves the cooperation of Indonesia. As that is the last destination, the starting off point, of the boats.
There is little doubt that endemic corruption of Indonesian officials is playing a huge part in the "people smuggling trade". And the Indonesian government requires considerable support if it is going to address this issue in it's own country. It is just not acceptable that something like 200 "boat people" perish off the coast of Java directly as a result of this "trade".
At the same time, genuine refugees have every right to seek asylum in safer countries & we are obliged to support that right as signatories to UN conventions.

The problem is there is no orderly system in our region to process & reallocate them. And that is another reason for the "boat trade". What is the alternative for them? To languish for years in refugee camps & wait for their turn to be "processed"?
I maintain this is not just an Australian issue. And it is not being anywhere near adequately addressed by the authorities who should be addressing it.

The problem, also, is that it has become one of those highly emotive "political football" issues in Oz domestic politics, which makes reaching workable solutions almost impossible.
<sigh>

.
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 03:28 pm
@msolga,
Thought you might appreciate this from facebook olgs

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/383107_10150422510030662_687820661_8694375_433083887_n.jpg
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 07:13 pm
@hingehead,
Thanks for posting that, hinge.
I'd also be interested in finding recent stats about asylum seeker intake, comparing different countries, per head of population.
I looked, but haven't managed to find any recent figures yet.
The period of detainment before being accepted as a refuge in Oz is rather remarkable, isn't it?

I confess that I had become quite despondent about the ongoing "asylum seeker debate".
Both sides of politics , both sides of the community seemingly locked permanently into their rigid black & white, pro & anti positions.
It seemed that no workable/acceptable solution could ever be found, that we would all remain locked permanently in our inflexible positions on the issue.

So you can imagine my surprise a few weeks ago, when Robert Manne (the person most of us - in Melbourne, anyway - would view as being the strongest public advocate of asylum seekers ... often in the opinion pages of the AGE) appeared to be taking a fresh approach (with some pragmatic compromises from his previously held position).

This article was also published in the AGE & caused quite a bit of debate, but I've thought about what he said quite a bit since... & some of it makes quite a bit of sense to me, in this stalemate position we've found ourselves stuck in.
I also found some of the responses to his thoughts (after the article, in the link) quite valid, too.

But the most important thing, as I see it, is that we keep trying to find a better, more workable policy for genuine asylum seekers in this country.

See what you think:



Quote:

The Search for the Least Bad Asylum Seeker Policy

Robert Manne

Blog | Wednesday, 21 December 2011 - 10:28am


http://www.themonthly.com.au/files/imagecache/article_image_enlarged2/MetroTVnewsAsylumSeekersDrown.jpg
Indonesian search and rescue service responds to sinking ship containing asylum seekers headed for Australia. Metrotvnews.com

“When the facts change I change my mind. What do you do, Sir?”
– John Maynard Keynes


On the weekend perhaps two hundred asylum seekers bound for Australia perished off the coast of Java. One key question about Australia’s asylum seeker problem was finally resolved. No one can any longer pretend that a regime of spontaneous asylum seeker boat arrivals and onshore processing does not carry with it grave and arguably unacceptable risks. In such circumstances, a conscientious national search for a solution to the asylum seeker problem can no longer be postponed. Unfortunately such a search is made almost impossible by two different kinds of stalemate – one political, the other ideological.

The political stalemate is the more familiar. It can be summarised like this. Both the Labor Government and the Coalition Opposition now support one or another form of offshore processing of asylum seekers, as a means of deterring further asylum seeker boats. Labor supports sending eight hundred asylum seekers to Malaysia. The Coalition supports recreating the detention camp on Nauru. Since the High Court judgment in August this year, the Malaysian Solution has been rendered unlawful and the Nauru solution at least dubious from the legal point of view. If offshore processing is to proceed an amendment to the law is thus required. Yet, with extraordinary bloody-mindedness, neither the Labor Government nor the Coalition will support the amendment that would facilitate the Solution favoured by the other side.

On both sides, from the point of view of principle, the resistance is hypocritical. The Coalition opposes the Malaysian Solution on the ground that Malaysia is not a signatory to the UN Refugee Convention. It advocates towing boats of asylum seekers back to Indonesia. Indonesia is however not a signatory to the UN Refugee Convention. Labor’s favoured solution followed closely the collapse of its hopes for an East Timor internment camp. The Government’s East Timor Solution would however have hardly differed from Nauru. Moreover, its Malaysian Solution assumes, as a logical premise, the opening of a Nauru-style offshore processing camp if more than 800 asylum seekers arrive by boat in the next four years. The asylum seeker policy differences between Labor and the Coalition are, in short, very largely confected.

The political stalemate has had, of course, a paradoxical outcome. Despite the fact that both Labor and the Coalition now support offshore processing of the claims of asylum seekers who arrive by boat, entirely by default Australia finds itself with a more liberal version of onshore processing than the one that prevailed before the institution of the Pacific Solution in late 2001 – no temporary protection visas and mandatory detention with a somewhat more human face.

The disastrous consequences of the political stalemate have now become quite obvious. Despite the coming of the monsoon season, there has been an increase in recent weeks in the number of asylum seeker boats setting off from Indonesia for Australia. Two of these boats have sunk. On the weekend, a very large number of people died.

These recent events have also accentuated the continuing significance of the ideological dimension of the asylum seeker stalemate. Ever since the Howard government opted to solve the asylum seeker problem by military means – either by forcing asylum seeker boats back to Indonesia or, when that failed, by despatching the asylum seekers to offshore processing camps on Nauru and Manus Island – asylum seeker policy has been one of the most explosive issues of the ideological battle in Australia between the culture-war camps of Left and Right. Just as in the political stalemate where there has been hypocrisy on both sides, so in the ideological stalemate there has been dishonesty in both camps.

Howard defenders have been unwilling to concede that the Pacific Solution that they supported both undermined the rule of international law and was also, for those who were towed back to Indonesia or who were interned for years on Nauru or Manus Island or who were repatriated to Afghanistan and Iran, extraordinarily cruel or exceedingly dangerous. Because of Australian policy, thousands of lives were blighted or even ruined. So far as I am aware, no one on the Right has ever conceded that the success of the Howard deterrent policy came at a terrible human cost.

For its part, the Left has generally been unwilling to concede that as a means for deterring asylum seeker boats the Pacific Solution actually “worked”. The evidence here is straightforward. Between 1999 and the introduction of the Pacific Solution in late 2001, 12,176 asylum seekers arrived by boat. In the years of the Pacific Solution – 2002 to 2008 – 449 arrived. Since the abandonment of the Pacific Solution toward the end of 2008, 14,008 asylum seekers have reached Australian shores. Yet on the Left the meaning of these facts, for some reason, continues to be resisted. The Left’s unwillingness to acknowledge what ought to have been self-evident has been of even greater political significance in recent years than the moral callousness of the Right.

It is now clear that when the Rudd government was elected in 2007 a wise asylum seeker policy would have involved leaving the legal and institutional framework of the Pacific Solution intact and humanising Australia’s asylum seeker policy by increasing the annual quota of refugees and abandoning temporary protection visas and mandatory detention. By 2007, it was obvious that the Pacific Solution had succeeded as a deterrent. The internment camps on Nauru and Manus Island were empty. The undeniable cruelty of the policy had reached its natural end. No Government in its right mind would have intentionally introduced a policy encouraging the return of the asylum seeker boats.

So far as I know no one on the Left with an interest in asylum seeker policy – and I include myself – was farsighted or independent or courageous enough to offer the incoming Rudd government advice along these lines. Having pretended for years that the Howard government’s Pacific Solution had not succeeded as a deterrent, both the Rudd Government and the opponents of the Howard government’s asylum seeker policies were utterly unprepared for the altogether predictable arrival of significant numbers of asylum seekers following its dismantling.

With the return of the boats, the ideological contest between Left and Right on the asylum seeker question erupted once more. One issue was the question of whether the spontaneous arrival of the boats from Indonesia posed an unacceptable risk to the lives of the asylum seekers. For years the supporters of the Howard policy had warned about the dangers facing asylum seekers who travelled here by boat. Howard’s opponents were convinced that the warnings arose not from genuine concern but as a cynical debating point. If concern for the wellbeing of the asylum seekers was sincere, Howard’s defenders would not have tolerated soul-destroying indefinite mandatory detention in Australia or on Nauru or the policy of towing the asylum seeker boats back to Indonesia.

In their suspicions about the motivations of the supporters of the Howard policy, the Left was largely correct. The trouble here was that even if it was true that the argument about dangers facing asylum seekers was often advanced by Howard’s defenders in bad faith, this of course did not prove that the dangers they warned of were not real.

In a similar way, the friends of the asylum seekers were often suspicious about the ways in which the defenders of Howard used high-minded rhetoric about the evils of the people smugglers as a way of justifying their punitive anti-asylum seeker policies and actions. Often the friends of the asylum seekers pointed out that during the Second World War “so-called people smugglers” had saved the lives of large numbers of Jewish refugees.

We now know that these arguments were badly flawed. Even if it was true that the defenders of harsh asylum seeker policies used the people smuggler issue opportunistically and as a debating point; even if it was also true that in different historical circumstances people smugglers once did indeed save very many lives – none of this shows that the kind of people smugglers involved in the contemporary movement of people from the Middle East and Central Asia to Australia were not indeed what the defenders of the deterrent policies had always claimed them to be – profiteering criminals and contemptible human beings.

Last weekend these arguments were more or less definitively resolved. Many desperate human beings died because a people smuggler was willing to massively overload a frail fishing boat during the monsoon season to collect a fee of $5000 a head. Whoever was responsible for this deed is more akin to a mass murderer than a modern-day Oskar Schindler. The danger of the asylum seeker passage from Indonesia to Australia is terrifyingly real.

For all Australians with an interest in the wellbeing of asylum seekers, but especially for the former opponents of the Howard policy like myself, the tragic events of the weekend demand policy re-evaluation, ideological self-scrutiny and an open-minded search for some plausible exit from the current political and ideological stalemate.

What follows is a blunt summary of the position I have now reached: .... <cont>

http://www.themonthly.com.au/blog-search-least-bad-asylum-seeker-policy-robert-manne-4447

-
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 07:23 pm
I found this video-d address to the Lowy Institute on the same site as Robert Manne's article.

More interesting insights & different approaches to consider.

Well worth a look.

Quote:
VIDEO: How To Stop the Boats. Khalid Koser

At this Lowy Lecture, global migration expert Dr Khalid Koser reviews and assesses the Australian government's efforts to reduce unauthorised boat arrivals over the last year. He provides a roadmap to more effective policy over the next year, drawing on lessons learned from European experiences of reducing flows of asylum seekers and irregular migrants.

Presented by the Lowy Institute, December 2011


http://www.themonthly.com.au/how-stop-boats-khalid-koser-4452
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 12:40 am
@msolga,
Ah well ...
I tried to get some discussion going by posting those 2 (above) posts.

I wouldn't have minded at all if you'd totally disagreed.... but I was really interested to know if any Oz posters had any new perspectives, following those 200 deaths off Java, as Robert Manne had.

I'll leave it here then.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 01:01 am
So moving right along, then .....

A couple of days ago I heard an interview with Antony Green on my local ABC radio ....

I always pay attention to what Antony says & in this instance he said something that quite surprised me:

That Julia would not be at the helm of the Labor Party at the next election.
And that no, she would not suffer a similar fate to Kevin07 ... she would definitely not be forced out.
So .... given that I take Antony's predictions very seriously ......
I'd say there's a very good chance that someone, whose initials are BS, could be it.

I don't expect any response to this post, either. Wink
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 01:52 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Ah well ...
I tried to get some discussion going by posting those 2 (above) posts.

I wouldn't have minded at all if you'd totally disagreed.... but I was really interested to know if any Oz posters had any new perspectives, following those 200 deaths off Java, as Robert Manne had.

I'll leave it here then.


I'm just taking a bit of a holiday from worrying about it all Msolga. I only have so much capacity and it's taken up by other worries right now....I'll come back and comment another time!
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 05:11 pm
@dlowan,
I'm sorry to hear that, Deb.
That you have so much to worry you right now, I mean.
I hope things get better ..... & soon.
0 Replies
 
Prickle
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2012 12:51 am
How many are genuine "asylum" seekers or just people wanting to come to Australia for a better life. I know quite a few people in other countries who would like to come to live in Australia but do not have enough savings to satisfy the immigration requirements. A lot of people see the "boat people" as jumping the queue. There are genuine cases, but there are a lot that are not. The UN has a lot to say, but I don't see the UN opening the purse stings either. Australia must have the right to protect its borders or it will end up a free for all which it is almost at the moment. Lots of European countries are now coming to terms with unchecked immigration. It has become a real social problem from which we need to learn lessons.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2012 09:04 pm
Gina Rinehart buys big in Fairfax

http://www.thepowerindex.com.au/analysis/could-gina-rinehart-move-to-a-full-fairfax-takeover

Expecting Andrew Bolt editorials in the SMH and Age real soon.

Thank god insiders is back on this weekend and Media Watch restarts Monday - maybe Q&A too?
Dutchy
 
  3  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2012 01:53 am
@hingehead,
Julia's missing shoe.
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1200/rudd.jpg

0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2012 02:09 am
@hingehead,
I'm as alarmed as you are, hinge, at yet another extremely wealthy person with a clear conservative political agenda investing (even more $$$$) into our media outlets.
As if the Murdoch monopolies were not enough!
You'd of course be aware that there is more concentrated control of Oz newspapers/media in the hands of a small number of very powerful & wealthy people than any other similar "western" country.
(Something to do with very slack "rules" & bending them to accommodate the likes of Rupert Murdoch, etc, by both sides of politics when in government ..).

So I'm a bit perplexed by Alan Kohler's lack of concern at Rinehart's acquisition of 15% of Fairfax in the Drum article (below) ... then this morning on local ABC radio I heard Barrie Cassidy arguing pretty much the same thing.

So I'm rather confused. And quite worried. Fairfax does not only control the AGE, SMH, the Financial Review, but also quite a number of influential Australian radio & television outlets.
I wish I shared Barrie & Alan's confidence.
And what's to stop Rinehart buying even more shares in Fairfax?

Anyway, we shall see what we shall see ....

I loved this comment from one contributor in response to Alan Kohler's Drum Article. That's pretty much how I see this latest development. . Wink :

Ah democracy. If you can't beat it buy it.

Quote:
Rinehart's Fairfax investment experiment
By ABC's Alan Kohler/the Drum
Updated February 01, 2012 09:43:34

Gina Rinehart is likely to find investing in Fairfax Media a deeply frustrating experience, whether she's trying to influence the newspapers or just make money. ...<cont>


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-01/kohler-rineharts-fairfax-investment-experiment/3803906

-
Bootlace
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2012 01:59 pm
Quote:
MINING magnate Clive Palmer says he will consider a tilt at media ownership like his billionaire counterpart Gina Rinehart who has become Fairfax Media's biggest single shareholder.


They're all on the band wagon.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/business/clive-palmer-doesnt-rule-out-media-tilt/story-fn7kjcme-1226261350515

0 Replies
 
Bootlace
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2012 02:05 pm
Quote:
QUEENSLAND'S Liberal National Party president Bruce McIver works for Australia's biggest political donor, Clive Palmer, and until late 2009 was a director in one of the magnate's mining companies.

And the plot thickens
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/elections/lnp-boss-denies-advance-knowledge-of-palmer-case/story-fnbsqt8f-1226261272893
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2012 02:49 pm
@msolga,
Maybe they're not concerned because this sort of news outlet's influence and profitability is on the wane? Commentary suggests that Rinehart has already lost big on her investment in Fairfax (big in our terms, not hers). That she continues to invest is proof that it's not about profit.

On a side note - latest in the battle between content creators and carriers:
Optus wins landmark web broadcast rights case
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2012 03:34 am
From GetUp! last week.
I meant to post it earlier but forgot.

Quote:
This video was first found by journalist Graham Readfearn. Read his article here: Monckton to Push for an Australian Fox News.

In July last year, climate-denialist Christopher Monckton advised mining industry insiders to create a US-style Fox News channel in Australia, supported by the "super wealthy" in order to provide supportive coverage for the mining industry.

The video, filmed in the boardrooms of pro-mining organisation Mannkal Economic Education Foundation, shows Mr Monckton offering to work with commentators such as Andrew Bolt to establish the channel.

Sound like anything that's happening at the moment? What happens to our media when it's owned by vested interests?


VIDEO: Monckton speaks to mining industry :
https://www.getup.org.au/campaigns/mining/monckton/monckton-speaks-to-mining-industry-share-this-video?t=dXNlcmlkPTc1NTE4NyxlbWFpbGlkPTU1Nw%3D%3D

-
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2012 03:40 am

If you pay any attention to opinion polls:

Gillard, Labor gain ground in latest poll
Updated February 06, 2012:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-06/nielsen-poll-sees-gillard-overtake-abbott/3812718
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2012 04:01 am
This should be interesting.
The launch of The Global Mail should be any time now.
Fingers crossed it's successful!

Quote:
What if public-interest journalism had a white knight: a media start-up is born, packed with pedigree
Paddy Manning
December 31, 2011/SMH


http://images.smh.com.au/2011/12/30/2866432/MAIL7-420x0.jpg
Front, from left: Graeme Wood, Monica Attard and staff at The Global Mail. Photo: Tamara Dean

PLENTY of people are worried about the future of quality, independent media in the internet age. Not many can do something about it. Enter philanthropist and internet entrepreneur Graeme Wood, who has pledged $15-20 million to a new, non-profit, online media venture, The Global Mail, with one goal in mind: produce public-interest journalism, no strings attached.

To be launched in February, The Global Mail will not charge readers, will not sell ads and is not chasing more donors. It was born of a dinner party conversation between Wood and former ABC journalist Monica Attard, the site's editor-in-chief....<cont>


http://www.smh.com.au/national/what-if-publicinterest-journalism-had-a-white-knight-a-media-startup-is-born-packed-with-pedigree-20111230-1pffl.html

-
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2012 04:06 am
Quote:
VIDEO:Clarke and Dawe and the changing face of news:

Broadcast: 02/02/2012

Reporter: John Clarke and Bryan Dawe

Bryan Dawe talks to a senior newspaper editor about the changing media world...

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3421921.htm
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Beached As Bro - Discussion by dadpad
Oz election thread #3 - Rudd's Labour - Discussion by msolga
Australian music - Discussion by Wilso
Oz Election Thread #6 - Abbott's LNP - Discussion by hingehead
AUstralian Philosophers - Discussion by dadpad
Australia voting system - Discussion by fbaezer
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.08 seconds on 11/22/2024 at 12:03:48