4
   

Oz Election Thread #4 - Gillard's Labor

 
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2011 05:11 am
On the builder/olgs debate.

I go for the simple deep one liner. Judge a society by how it treats its outliers. #marriageequality makes us a better society in my opinion. To say 'forget about being able to see your life partner on their death bed because you're not legally family because the economy is more important' isn't an option, it's a cop out.

It seems the right side of politics is being very silent on this one - or is that because of what I monitor? All I've seen so far is some action on the Oz Christian Lobby's facebook page.

Speaking of simple deep oneliners - a Penny Wong quote (not related to this topic at all, but in my mind related to all topics)

All the easy decisions have been made.

From the ALP conf - 2 of my favourite ministers with Peter Garrett
http://s1-04.twitpicproxy.com/photos/large/462799969.jpg
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2011 07:02 pm
@hingehead,
Yes, Couldn't agree with you more hinge.
But more on that later ...

Right now I'm watching the ALP conference via the ABC live stream....(in between pruning, getting drenched by sudden downpours, coming inside for a bit of A2K, a bit more Alp conference, then back out again. ..... multi-tasking & not too successfully. Smile )

I just heard Julia speak in favour of uranium sales to India, now listening to the seconder ...

I must say my heart is in my mouth right now. This is an issue I feel really strongly about & I'm certain the previous ALP policy will be overturned & the uranium sales will proceed (despite India not being a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.)

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=nuclear+non+proliferation+treaty&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

I'm totally with the Greens on this one, as I was with previous ALP policy.

http://greens.org.au/content/uranium-%E2%80%98debate%E2%80%99-alp-will-regret-0

Trying not to become too depressed here.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2011 07:22 pm
@msolga,
Agh.
This is so hard to watch!

Just watched senator Doug Cameron give a rousing speech in support of the ALP's existing uranium policy. He received a standing ovation. (from me at home, too! Wink )

"Prime minister, you are wrong!"

"Are jobs more important than nuclear proliferation? I say NO!"


But all the same, I expect the left will be screwed by the right of the ALP on this one.
It's times like this I almost regret so many of us lefties having defected to the Greens when Labor moved to the right.

msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2011 07:59 pm
@msolga,
So the amendment (to allow uranium sales to India) has been carried.
Oh well ... Sad

There seem to be a number of delegates leaving the conference after that vote.
I don't blame them. I would too, if I was an ALP member.

So now it's ALP policy.
Which the Labor government will certainly act on. And the opposition is hardly likely to object. Since when did they have principled policies about such issues? They would be at one with the government on this.

My hunch is that there will now be even more ALP members defecting to the Greens.
I wouldn't blame them, either.

It's a real shame, I think, that so much of this debate (from the right) focused on supporting the prime minister's authority.
In my book, the principles were far more important.

A sad day.
I think I'll get back to my garden now.
-
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2011 12:05 am
@msolga,
Quote:
Labor votes in favour of selling uranium to India
December 4, 2011 - 4:13PM/the AGE

http://images.theage.com.au/2011/12/04/2816404/art_uranium-420x0.jpg
Labor has cleared the way for Australian uranium to be sold to India. Photo: Glenn Campbell

Federal Labor has cleared the way for Australian uranium to be exported to India after a fiery debate on the floor of the party's 46th national conference.

Despite feisty resistance from opponents, the landmark policy change was carried today by a majority of delegates, paving the way for the first Australian country-to-country agreement to sell yellowcake to a nation outside the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.


Contention started early, with anti-uranium protesters drowning out Infrastructure Minister Anthony Albanese as he spoke against any change to Labor's policy.

The protesters were ejected from Sydney's Darling Harbour Convention Centre before the debate went into full swing — leaving the heat and emotion largely to the conference floor.

Mr Albanese told the conference Labor should not be seeking to go deeper into the nuclear industry only months after Japan's profound nuclear crisis at Fukushima.

He said the world had not yet solved proliferation risks, or come up with a solution for treating radioactive waste.

"I say that until we have resolved the issues of nuclear proliferation and we have resolved the issue of nuclear waste we should not change our platform to further expand our commitment to the nuclear fuel cycle," Mr Albanese said.

"I ask you delegates to stick with principle."

He was backed by speakers including Peter Garrett, backbench firebrand Doug Cameron — who declared Prime Minister Julia Gillard "wrong" — and Left factional convener Stephen Jones.

"I don't want Labor's light on the hill to be a green, pulsating nuclear light," Senator Cameron told the conference to enthusiastic applause.

In moving the platform change, Ms Gillard acknowledged the party's internal differences. But she declared uranium sales to India in Australia's national interest.

"We are not a political party that shirks hard decisions," Ms Gillard told conference.

"At this conference we should take a decision in the national interest."

She said as Australians contemplated living in the Asian century, they should consider India's emergence as well as China.

The Prime Minister argued Australia could sell uranium to India without breaching its obligations under the NPT. She said any agreement to sell uranium to India would include strict safeguards to minimise proliferation risks.

The policy change was seconded by South Australian Premier Jay Weatherill, and backed by fellow advocates including Martin Ferguson, Stephen Smith, union boss Paul Howes and Warren Mundine.

The only right-winger to speak publicly against change was Stephen Conroy, who was overwhelmed by emotion as he recounted negative family history with the nuclear industry in the UK.

The vote to amend the platform was carried affirmatively 206 to 185.

Former prime minister John Howard had approved uranium sales to India in 2007 but that policy was reversed by the incoming Rudd Government, because it was inconsistent with Labor's longtime ban on selling uranium to countries outside the NPT. ...<cont>


http://www.theage.com.au/national/labor-votes-in-favour-of-selling-uranium-to-india-20111204-1od53.html?comments=42#comments
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2011 01:10 am
@msolga,
I'm torn on this one - I think fission nuclear power is a dangerous dead end. I think the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty is a joke. I know Australian uranium sold to signatories of the NNPT is being 'retailed' to India . I know there are NNTP signatories much less 'trustworthy' than India. Just hoping we get cold fusion happening before the nuclear waste becomes insurmountable.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2011 02:39 am
@hingehead,
Yes, but, but .....
(Last word from me, I hope)

If the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty is a joke, it's because the signatories to it have not honored the treaty they are signatories to. Selling uranium to a country which refuses to sign it (& making our own, alternative "safety" arrangements with that country) simply weakens the Treaty even further, makes it more of a joke ....
This really concerns me & was brought up in the debate today. What is the point of such treaties when the member countries don't adhere to their obligations as signatories? If member countries no longer agree with the terms of the treaty, to my mind, they should either cease being signatories, or else work to amend the treaty to one they can support.

Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT):
http://www.un.org/disarmament/WMD/Nuclear/NPT.shtml

The same goes for countries who want to buy Australia's uranium. If India believes the Treaty is "flawed" & "discriminatory", then what's stopping India from moving amendments to remove the perceived flaws & discrimination?
Heck, I just want a treaty that works!

Given that Australia holds something like 40% of the uranium reserves in the world, I think we have a special responsibility in regard to who we sell it to.

I read somewhere (& I thought I bookmarked it but apparently I haven't, because I can't find the article now) that this new deal to sell uranium to India is a sop to the mining industry, compensation for the mining tax. And they will certainly be making big money as a result!

Quote:
.....Delhi has insisted that the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty is flawed and discriminatory, and won't sign it.

But Australia's Resources Minister Martin Ferguson is unconcerned.
Beverley Mine The Beverley uranium mine in South Australia is one of four in the country

"India is not a rogue nuclear nation. We can sell uranium to countries such as China and Russia, but our existing policy (towards India) is outdated, it's a hangover from the 1970s. It was appropriate in the 1970s but the world has moved on," he said.

The United States certainly thinks so too. Washington struck a nuclear co-operation deal with India in 2008 that permitted uranium exports for civil use.

Australian producers are watching and waiting.

"If the government changed its policy in relation to uranium sales to India and ensures the appropriate safeguards are in place, we would review our position and take those matters into consideration," said Samantha Stevens from BHP Billiton, which owns the mighty Olympic Dam mine 600km north of Adelaide.

It is the biggest uranium facility anywhere, and expansion plans could see its annual 4,000-tonne capacity soar to 19,000 tonnes. ...Australia's uranium industry poised for growth .....


Australia's uranium industry poised for growth:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15751130


hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2011 05:26 am
@msolga,
A great tweet today said, basically, if Doug Cameron and Malcolm Turnbull decide to resurrect the Democrats they've got my vote....
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2011 05:32 am
@hingehead,
I know there's nothing worse than having to explain, but what does that mean, hinge? Confused Smile
(Perhaps I'm a bit slow tonight?)
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2011 03:48 pm
@msolga,
The tweeter was suggesting that if Malcolm Turnbull and Doug Cameron were to get together and reform the Democrats they would get his vote. - Both being men of principle (apparently) holding to convictions that put them at odds with their parties. i.e. They have DonChippness....
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2011 03:59 pm
The day after ....

A long report from the ABC about the fallout from yesterday's ALP conference decision to sell uranium to India ...
Including video reports:

Quote:
Labor Left vows to fight uranium exports
Updated December 05, 2011 01:33:29/ABC online

Labor's Left faction has vowed not to give up its fight against uranium exports to India after the ALP national conference endorsed the Prime Minister's plan to lift the ban.

The Federal Government is now preparing negotiate an agreement with India to export Australian uranium to the country, a move which Julia Gillard says will boost trade and enhance Australia's relationship with India.

"We are at the right time in the history of the world to seize a new era of opportunity in this, the Asian century," she said......

.... Labor Senator Doug Cameron says there is no way Australia can get India to agree to proper safeguards.

"There is absolutely no way we can get these commitments that the Prime Minister is talking about," he said.

"If Bush couldn't do it, if the Canadians couldn't do it I don't think we can."

Senator Cameron says he will not give up the fight.

I think this is one of the worst decisions the Labor party has ever made.
Labor Senator Doug Cameron


"I think this is one of the worst decisions the Labor party has ever made in my time in the Labor party," he said.

"I'll be watching very closely about what we actually do in terms of getting commitments from the Indian Government.".......




Quote:
.....Domino effect

The Australian Conservation Foundation (ACF) has also condemned the decision to sell uranium to India.

ACF nuclear campaigner Dave Sweeney says exporting uranium to a country that is not a signatory to the non-proliferation treaty will undermine Australia's credibility and reputation on nuclear issues.

"It's only a matter of time before the pressure mounts within the ALP to 'oh, we export uranium, why don't we enrich it'," he said.

"And then it's 'we export uranium and enrich uranium, why don't we take back the waste and that will be custodianship and we'll be a responsible country and a good steward'.

"And then it'll be 'we do this, we do that to other countries that use nuclear power why don't we use nuclear power'.".......



Quote:
......But Opposition Leader Tony Abbott says Ms Gillard should have moved sooner to allow uranium exports to India.

"What she's trying to do is un-stuff a stuff-up," he said.

"The Howard Government wanted to sell uranium to India. ...




Quote:
.........Howard policies

Meanwhile, Greens Leader Bob Brown is predicting a surge in support for his party as disillusioned ALP supporters turn to the Greens.

Senator Brown says Labor's national conference has seen a number of policy changes that have meant the party has never been further to the conservative right side of politics.

He says the party's traditional progressive platform is being undermined by the leadership.

"We've got Julia Gillard as Prime Minister endorsing time after time the policies of John Howard as prime minister," he said.........


Labor Left vows to fight uranium exports:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-12-04/labor-left-to-fight-uranium-exports/3711938
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2011 04:10 pm
... and then there's this clanger, published in this morning's AGE & Sydney Morning Herald.
Yikes!:

Quote:
ALP post-mortem damns Rudd
December 5, 2011/the AGE

Comments 43

EXCLUSIVE

http://images.theage.com.au/2011/12/04/2817232/ipad-art-wide-Rudd-420x0.jpg
"The government was beginning to be seen by a portion of the population as lacking a core purpose and being driven by spin" ... a secret Labor Party report revealed about Kevin Rudd's administration. Photo: Jacky Ghossein

A SECRET Labor Party report has criticised the government led by Kevin Rudd as lacking purpose and being driven by spin and implies that the former prime minister or his supporters were behind the leaks that almost destroyed Julia Gillard's election campaign.

It says the leakers ''should be condemned by the party''.


The report is the so-called sealed section of the 2010 election review conducted by party elders John Faulkner, Steve Bracks and Bob Carr and was never meant to be made public.

Obtained by The Sydney Morning Herald, the report's findings will inflame tensions between Mr Rudd and Julia Gillard, which were on display throughout the three-day ALP national conference in Sydney which finished yesterday.

Mr Rudd was upset that his role as prime minister was clinically deleted from Ms Gillard's opening speech on Friday and from a tribute to Labor's handling of the global financial crisis.

The confidential report cites a period of drift and complacency for the Rudd government which began in mid-2009 after the opposition under Malcolm Turnbull was crippled by the Godwin Grech-utegate affair.

Internal research began to show public doubts about the government's economic credentials, direction and priorities, despite its strong poll figures ....<cont>


ALP post-mortem damns Rudd :
http://www.theage.com.au/national/alp-postmortem-damns-rudd-20111204-1odj8.html

-
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2011 04:16 pm
@msolga,
Today's Petty:

http://images.theage.com.au/2011/12/05/2817429/Pettymonday-620x0.jpg
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2011 04:18 pm
Moir:

http://images.theage.com.au/2011/12/02/2814645/port-CARTOON-moir-3-12-11-600x400.jpg
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2011 12:29 am
@msolga,
Interesting.
According to a new Galaxy poll, 76% of Lib/National Party voters support a conscience vote on the gay marriage bill, which will be put to parliament early next year.
Perhaps things are a wee bit more hopeful than many anticipated?

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how the Coalition deals with the notion of a conscience vote in its ranks. Tony Abbott's view just might be challenged & might not prevail.

Quote:
Abbott maintains gay marriage opposition
December 5, 2011 - 3:50PM/the AGE

http://images.theage.com.au/2011/09/07/2610180/ipad-art-wide-abbott-420x0.jpg
Against gay marriage ... Tony Abbott. Photo: Michelle Smith

Federal Coalition MPs who support same-sex marriage may have to wait until parliament resumes in February before learning whether they will be allowed a conscience vote on the issue.

Opposition Leader Tony Abbott continues to insist the Coalition strongly opposes any change to the Marriage Act.

But he is willing to allow shadow cabinet and the Coalition party room to consider a private member's bill likely to be introduced by Labor backbencher Stephen Jones or the Australian Greens.

"Everyone will have their say, but we do have a strong position," he told reporters in Perth today.

Mr Abbott would not say whether Coalition MPs will be allowed a conscience vote, even though an opinion poll shows strong vote support for such a move.

A Galaxy Research poll, released today by Australian Marriage Equality, found 76 per of Coalition voters back a conscience vote.

Liberal senator Simon Birmingham, a supporter of same-sex marriage, says any bill will struggle to get through parliament even if all MPs were allowed a conscience vote.

"There are some very strong and passionately held views on all sides of the debate," he said, adding it was very hard to predict the numbers until MPs declared their positions.

Another Liberal, Russell Broadbent, has indicated his support for a conscience vote on the bill.

Cabinet minister Penny Wong, who is in a same-sex relationship, is urging opposition MPs to back the measure in parliament.

"It's time to get behind this," she said ...<cont>


Abbott maintains gay marriage opposition:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/abbott-maintains-gay-marriage-opposition-20111205-1oes5.html

-
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2011 01:59 am
You know something I find really odd here?
That I post views & media reports about important issues (to me, anyway) like uranium sales to India & there is so little response.
I wish those of you who support or oppose this development would post your views, even if they are different to mine. Rather than remain silent.
I would love a discussion!
.
Dutchy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2011 02:15 am
@msolga,
Well msolga I congratulate you on your efforts here. May I make a small comment ? I think it was a wise move by our Government to finally do a turn about regarding the sale of uranium to India and even more so for relaxing the rules on the mining of uranium in this Country for export to various Countries. I may be a cinic but I have always felt if we didn't deliver to Asia that one day they would come and get it themselves! Remember there is only 20 odd million of us here against at least 2 billion Asians! Who is going to stop them?
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2011 02:28 am
@Dutchy,
Quote:
I have always felt if we didn't deliver to Asia that one day they would come and get it themselves! Remember there is only 20 odd million of us here against at least 2 billion Asians! Who is going to stop them?

I have heard this view expressed before, Dutchy.
I am going to put my own views on side, for the minute ,& ask other Oz A2kers what they think.
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2011 03:08 am
@msolga,
I think that if population was the only thing stopping 'asia' from invading PNG would already be annexed. Thinking of Asia as a bloc is silly. Buying minerals is much cheaper than launching an invasion.

I think the sale of uranium to India is a bit more Julia pragmatism - it's more about stifling the perception India has of Australia as 'racist' - largely fed by the appalling violence perpetrated on international students. I think Julia sees the uranium sales as a nothing, but the money education gets from India students is a something (think about what portfolio she had as a minister).
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2011 03:09 am
@hingehead,
I forgot to mention it's also a sop to the mining industry for accepting the mining tax graciously - except for Twiggy of course.
0 Replies
 
 

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