Please Don't Feed our Bums

@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
I find you to be as completely absolutist as you consider me to be...

You seem to be saying I'm as radical or something, but I simply do not have your penchant for rhetorical absolutisms at all, not one bit. Not a single iota. Absolutely, positively nothing at all similar.

Was this intended to be ironic? Laughing

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I will say that giving money to street rats so they can buy dog food and ciggies doesn't help them one bit.

Upon what do you base this claim? Last time I asked, your response was just that you didn't give a **** about them. That is not substantiation for this claim.

I disagree that this does not help them at all, it's true that teaching a man to fish is better than giving him a fish but I don't think you do either and I happen to think that giving a man a fish is often a nice introduction and something that may gain some trust and maybe serve as a nice opening to teach him how to fish.

Sometimes the kindness does help, sometimes it is what they needed.

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Absolutely.

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@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
I will say that giving money to street rats so they can buy dog food and ciggies doesn't help them one bit.

I disagree that this does not help them at all, it's true that teaching a man to fish is better than giving him a fish but I don't think you do either and I happen to think that giving a man a fish is often a nice introduction and something that may gain some trust and maybe serve as a nice opening to teach him how to fish.

This is only true if you are willing to spend your time teaching people to fish. I'm not really willing to do this, though - as I said earlier - I do pay taxes to support those who are willing to do so. Therefore, my giving them money that they spend on wasteful stuff is just money wasted, and perpetuates the false idea that many of these guys hold that their lifestyle is viable.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

If what you advocate is not writing them off entirely perhaps you could explain in what way you are not writing them off?

I certainly don't wish for anyone to die. I'll help provide the necessities of life. Food. Shelter. Clothing. Hygienic needs. Basic medical care. Even education, both academic and vocational.

But I can't force people to make different choices. I can't make someone buy a bar of soap and a toothbrush instead of a pack of cigarettes.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I will say that giving money to street rats so they can buy dog food and ciggies doesn't help them one bit.

Well, it helps 'em buy dog food and butts.

I think you're saying it doesn't help them in a way that you want to help them. They're unwilling to change their circumstances, and you don't feel the need to support their current parasitic lifestyle.

That's the difference for me: some people really do need a hand up. Other people just want to be leeches.

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@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

Sometimes the kindness does help, sometimes it is what they needed.

Sometimes that is true.

If I have $100 to spend on charity, though, is it more effective to hand out $1 to the first 100 people who ask for it, or is it more effective to give $100 to the local food bank?

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

It depends on the food bank, but the thing is I don't often see that argument as support for giving $100 to the food bank but just as support for not giving to panhandlers.

I certainly wish food banks had $100 for every time someone claimed that their refusal to give to panhandlers is predicated on the superior ideal of giving to food banks.

1 Reply

I should mention that one reason that this particular sticker bothers me so much, by the way, is because it is coming from an area that for many years housed a bum that society kept picking on, that kept going to court, and that the world liked to step on and who the world didn't know had suffered more than they could ever dream of suffering. To most of those who encountered her she was just another OB meth head turning tricks on the street. But some people who knew of her horrific story kept trying to reach her and eventually got her off the streets.

To the causal observer not wanting to feel pangs of sympathy she was just trash, choosing substance abuse over a life of substance. I'm just saying the causal observer is self-serving, preferring comfortable narratives, and knows next to nothing about those they pass judgement on. Lots of these folks are fighting their own demons that you know nothing about.

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

My justification for not giving cash to panhandlers is that I don't believe it will result helping them beyond the moment, and may end up harming them in the near future if end up spending it on drugs or alcohol.

I will give them actual food, though.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

This is only true if you are willing to spend your time teaching people to fish.

Some here advocate for others not to do so either, so it goes well beyond what they personally are willing to spend their time on.

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@DrewDad,

Even though long-term help may be preferable, I don't mind helping people just for the moment. There are a lot of momentary indulgences that I afford myself (including alcohol on occasion). I won't begrudge a bum his just because his lot in life might be smaller than mine.

But I think for most people this is a false dilemma, and they actually aren't helping anyone at all.

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

But some people who knew of her horrific story kept trying to reach her and eventually got her off the streets.

But this supports what I'm saying; it wasn't someone casually handing her money that got her off the streets.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

But I can't force people to make different choices. I can't make someone buy a bar of soap and a toothbrush instead of a pack of cigarettes.

Agreed, but not giving up on them for making the wrong choice (as if we never did) is one way to help them make better choices. Society's ostracization of it's least fortunate is an additional obstacle for their integration into productive society.

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

I don't begrudge him a beer either; I just don't feel that I'm obliged to provide it.

I'll say this, too: these people are selling an experience, just like Disney does. The experience of helping someone, the experience of someone being grateful. I think that experience is a fantasy, though, and I don't buy into it anymore.

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@Robert Gentel,

But providing them the means to continue making the wrong choice is not the way to teach them to make different choices, either.

IMO, you have to actually provide them with a choice. Giving a panhandler $5 doesn't really provide him with much of a choice, whereas giving that $5 to Goodwill, so they can give someone the opportunity to have a job, does provide choices.

I donated some stuff to Goodwill just yesterday, a laundry basket of stuff all jumbled up. I started sorting it and the guy took it away from me and said to let him sort it because, "it's my job". He's the guy I want to help, and if he buys a beer with the money he earned, I have no problem with it.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Like I said, if people are really going to help that's one thing, I'm all for trying to maximize the effectiveness of your help, but more often I think the "teach a man to fish" argument is just a pretext not to part with any fish. When I was homeless there were days I wouldn't have minded $5 to have been a less hungry homeless person, and while long-term choices might be preferable nothing at all isn't.

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@DrewDad,

Sometimes it was. The folks who would try to lecture her would drive her nuts. The folks who wanted her to confront her monsters and solve her life in an instant drove her mad.

I am not privy to the exact kind of help that brought her off the streets (I was no longer in town by then) but the help that I did witness that she responded most to was just to hang out with her, share a beer and some cigs and maybe that nice jacket you are wearing. Not to have strings attached and moralize but just to sit down with her on her level, and not make an ugly face at her smell.

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@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

When I was homeless there were days I wouldn't have minded $5 to have been a less hungry homeless person

For me, it comes down to trust, I guess. I don't trust that the panhandler will actually use it for food. I do trust that the food bank will.

The grocery stores here make it really easy for me to donate to the food bank. They have these little coupons that you scan at checkout which will donate various amounts to the local food bank.

Here's my belief:

If I donate to the food bank, someone's getting fed.
If I donate to a panhandler, someone's getting high.

You know why? Because when they get hungry, they can go to the effing food bank.

(Also, children get fed from the food bank, too. I'd much rather feed a kid than give money to an adult.)

0 Replies

@Robert Gentel,

And I'll say this again: I think you're buying an experience, not actually helping someone.

1 Reply

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