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A Failure To Convince Me That Any Gods Exist

 
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2010 09:55 pm
@jeeprs,
The fruit fly experiments in the early decades of the 1900s were a textbook disproof of the main concepts of evolutionism.


MICROEVOLUTION is a proven fact of life and nobody argues over it. Microevolution means brown moths changing to white ones, finches with short beaks changing to finches with longer beaks, and that sort of thing.

MACROEVOLUTION is the notion that new KINDS of animals can somehow arise via an accumulation of the changes involved in microevolution and/or via mutations and this is the thing which is normally referred to as the theory of evolution.

There is no evidence supporting macroevolution at all. In fact when scientists tried to prove the concept in the early 1900s, they utterly failed and the failure was so stark and garish that a number of the scientists involved publically renounced evolution at the time, most notably Goldschmidt who devised his "hopeful monster" theory as a possible replacement.

What they did, over a period of about twenty years, involved fruit flies which breed new generations every few days. Twenty years worth of that is equal to tens of thousands of generations of any normal animal, i.e. enough for any possibility of macroevolution to be observed without requiring millions of years.

What they did was to subject those flies to everything in the world known to cause mutations, including electricity, chemicals, heat, cold, noise, silence, blast, vibration, and basically just everything, and then recombine like mutants in every possible way.

And all they ever got was what the breeders told Charles Darwin was all he would ever get via mutation when they told him he was full of **** in the 1850s, i.e. fruit flies, sterile mutants, and next generations of mutants which returned, boomarang-like, to the norm for a fruit fly. Basically, all they had to show for their work after 20 years was fruit flies. No wasps, ants, spiders, mantises, beetles, hornets, mosquitos, or any other kind of animal whatsoever; just fruit flies.

Basically, the typical yuppie who believes in evolution does not really understand the meaning of "natural selection" and assumes it to be some sort of magical process which produces new kinds of animals. Natural selection in fact is a destructive process and not a constructive one. You could no more create a new species with natural selection than you could build a skyscraper with a wrecking ball. Natural selection is the conservative process which weeds out everything an iota to the left or right of dead center for the norm of a given animal species. It is an agent of stasis and not of change.

What the theory of evolution actually says is that chance mutations create new kinds of animals and that, amongst these new kinds of animals, natural selection then weeds out the "unfit".

The only problem is that, in real life, mutations all have names, such as "Down's Syndrome", "Tay-Sachs", "cri-du-chat syndrome", phoco-locii etc. etc. etc. Ever notice the women walking door to door collecting money for the Mothers' March of Dimes? Ever notice that they are ALWAYS collecting money for research to PREVENT mutations, and never for money for research to CAUSE them? Think there might be a reason for that??

Charles Darwin's theory demands that these kinds of mutations which are invariably destructive and detrimental, are the root cause of our entire biosphere, starting from one-celled animals. The whole idea is basically idiotic.



More info on fruit flies:

http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/Encyclopedia/10mut10.htm
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2010 10:03 pm
@gungasnake,
thanks for the explanation. It is an important distinction and when you put it like that I am inclined to agree. I personally believe that there must be some kind of teleological explanation behind the development of intelligent life. Not like ID, rather more Platonist.

Actually, here is an interesting question. I know that teleological explanations are generally taboo in science. The question is, is this because they are not likely to be true, or that even if they were true, it is not the kind of theory for which scientific verification, or falsification, would be possible?
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2010 10:16 pm
@jeeprs,
I agree Marvin Minski et. al. have underestimated the difficulty of artificial intelligence. But that doesn't mean it's impossible.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2010 10:42 pm
1 - Is my view that Artificial Intelligence will be a natural fact given the right time...a hopeful guess, as I am by no means an expert on the issue... nevertheless an acceptable and quite tangible guess to where I stand.

2 - As for "Gods" not being Necessary it all depends on looking to Reality as a Unified Whole or a mere Chaotic incident...don´t get me wrong, I am not on Creation/Creator Duality here...I am just addressing the Ontological Nature of the World itself as not necessarily denying a inner sense of Unity almost in the Mathematical sense. Could n´t be simpler !

0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2010 10:55 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs wrote:

Actually, here is an interesting question. I know that teleological explanations are generally taboo in science. The question is, is this because they are not likely to be true, or that even if they were true, it is not the kind of theory for which scientific verification, or falsification, would be possible?

If it is not falsifiable it cannot be called a "theory."

A
R
T
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2010 11:47 pm
@failures art,
well that is interesting, don't you think? Here we are coming up against an ideological question, not a scientific one. It is interesting that teleology - Aristotle's concept of the 'goal-directedness' of all living organisms - had to be replaced with 'teleonomy' which is identical, except that it refers to the apparent purposefulness and goal-directedness of organisms. This is because it is quite impossible to do without the idea of purpose in biology, but at the same time, any causal role for purpose is a scientific taboo, because it so easily spills over into tacky, non-scientific questions about meaning and intention and all the other immeasurables.

But let's give Aristotle the last word
Quote:
It is absurd to suppose that purpose is not present because we do not observe an agent deliberating. Craft does not deliberate. If the ship-building craft were in the wood, it would produce the same results by nature. If, therefore, purpose is present in craft, it is present also in nature. The best illustration is a doctor doctoring himself: nature is like that. It is plain that nature is a cause, a cause that operates for a purpose.
Physics, Book II, ch.8, 199b
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2010 02:07 am
@jeeprs,
Quote:
I personally believe that there must be some kind of teleological explanation behind the development of intelligent life


The only thing is, God doesn't use broken tools. The word 'evolution' means change via combinations of mutation and selection; what you're talking about is genetic engineering and re-engineering. THAT, I don't have any sort of a big problem with.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2010 02:58 am
@Thomas,
the point I am pressing is that the idea that the human intelligence is something that can be replicated via algorithms is a conceit and also a scientific fantasy. And I will stand by that.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2010 06:15 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs wrote:

the point I am pressing is that the idea that the human intelligence is something that can be replicated via algorithms is a conceit and also a scientific fantasy. And I will stand by that.

Given enough computer power and disk space why would n´t be possible ?
Is the "Soul" that you think that ultimately cannot be copied ?
If you mean a perfect, perfect copy down or close to the "infinity" I agree against anything...but we would n´t need so much, a rough approximation will do...
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2010 06:25 am
failures art, when you say that you don´t believe in any notion of God and yet feel that you don´t have to present a definition on it is just like saying that you don´t believe in the unknown, in any given X, so I figure that you must be omniscient to have that degree of confidence ! Mr. Green
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2010 07:49 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs wrote:
But let's give Aristotle the last word

... ignoring 2350 years of progress in the field of physics that have occured since he published his textbook on the subject ...

jeeprs, quoting Aristotle wrote:
It is absurd to suppose that purpose is not present because we do not observe an agent deliberating.

Aristotle's opinion that something is absurd doesn't make it absurd, let alone a fact.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2010 07:51 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs wrote:
the point I am pressing is that the idea that the human intelligence is something that can be replicated via algorithms is a conceit and also a scientific fantasy. And I will stand by that.

I understand the idea you're pressing. I just don't find it convincing.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2010 08:55 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
failures art, when you say that you don´t believe in any notion of God and yet feel that you don´t have to present a definition on it is just like saying that you don´t believe in the unknown, in any given X, so I figure that you must be omniscient to have that degree of confidence ! Mr. Green

Your request simply doesn't make any sense.

I don't believe in ANY gods. Simply put, no cogent argument has been put forth for ANY god by any definition presented. I'm simply not convinced. If YOU would like to present a defined god or gods for consideration, by all means, go nuts. No god is necessary, so why would defining any be necessary?

One does not need to be omniscient. I do not claim to know that there are no gods, I simply am unconvinced by the people who claim to know that a specific god or gods do exist.

Atheism is far more humble than Theism
R
T

Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2010 09:05 am
@Thomas,
thomas wrote:
Aristotle's opinion that something is absurd doesn't make it absurd, let alone a fact.

Bad choice of words on my part. Let me rephrase as follows: "Aristotle's opinion that something is absurd doesn't make it absurd. In particular, Aristotle's opinion that it's absurd to suppose that purpose is not present doesn't make it a fact that purpose is present.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2010 02:58 pm
@failures art,
failures art wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
failures art, when you say that you don´t believe in any notion of God and yet feel that you don´t have to present a definition on it is just like saying that you don´t believe in the unknown, in any given X, so I figure that you must be omniscient to have that degree of confidence ! Mr. Green

Your request simply doesn't make any sense.

I don't believe in ANY gods. Simply put, no cogent argument has been put forth for ANY god by any definition presented. I'm simply not convinced. If YOU would like to present a defined god or gods for consideration, by all means, go nuts. No god is necessary, so why would defining any be necessary?

One does not need to be omniscient. I do not claim to know that there are no gods, I simply am unconvinced by the people who claim to know that a specific god or gods do exist.

Atheism is far more humble than Theism
R
T




Very well...so neither forth nor against. Hardly what I see in the Thread !
Not very honest of you...
In order to be convinced you should have an expected theoretical model against which a "demonstration" would fit or not fit...without one there is no Thread, no debate and mainly nonsense !

Either in the opening post you refer, at least to, a theoretical expected model of what God is supposed to be if it were to be true, or you refer to nothing...enough reason to bring on the issue time and again.

What you are saying might well read something like I don´t believe in any "FTRYH"...
...means nothing, says nothing, presents no thing !...

I don´t believe in the, I don´t know what, does n´t make to much sense for me...
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2010 03:07 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I have stated very clearly that there is no need to believe against something. There is no need to make a negative proof. In other words, unicorns don't need to be disproved by non-believers in unicorns. The burden of proof is on the believers in unicorns to define and make the case.

The same rules apply for an evaluation on if there are gods.

As a counter example, I could intentionally define a false god. Could you disprove it exists? The most impressive example for this has been the Flying Spaghetti monster. One needs not form a stance against such a creature's existence, they simply need only evaluate if they are convinced or not by the case presented that the FSM exists. If they are not convinced, it's no fault of theirs.

A
R
T
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2010 03:20 pm
@Thomas,
well of course I acknowledge that in many respects Aristotle's physics is completely outmoded, but his ideas of teleology and entelechy are still interesting.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2010 03:37 pm
@failures art,
failures art wrote:

I have stated very clearly that there is no need to believe against something. There is no need to make a negative proof. In other words, unicorns don't need to be disproved by non-believers in unicorns. The burden of proof is on the believers in unicorns to define and make the case.

The same rules apply for an evaluation on if there are gods.

As a counter example, I could intentionally define a false god. Could you disprove it exists? The most impressive example for this has been the Flying Spaghetti monster. One needs not form a stance against such a creature's existence, they simply need only evaluate if they are convinced or not by the case presented that the FSM exists. If they are not convinced, it's no fault of theirs.

A
R
T


I well know this rule, I just don´t think it fits the case if any...
I have made you a very simple question, what is it that you don´t believe ?
When you say "God" to mean nothing, you might well be referring to the F.S.M. or less then that ... Is just non productive ! can you honestly make a case to disagree ?

To not know is not the same as to say that you know that God does not exist which seams to fit your interventions in matter of belief at least.

...On that concern you could just as well say that you know nothing, although you might of course, believe something...
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2010 03:48 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
I have made you a very simple question, what is it that you don´t believe ?

Simple or not, this question is unfair. There's an infinite number of conceivable entities that you don't believe in. It would be unfair of me to ask that you specify them all. By the same token, considering how many different things different people mean by the name "god", it's unfair of you to do demand that Failures Art enumerate and specify them.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2010 03:56 pm
As for the Flying Spaghetti Monster, you can't demonstrate any impact that the belief in this entity has had on the formation of Western civilization, which has been profoundly impacted by belief in Gog. In fact, aside from whether you believe God exists, it is an empirical fact that belief in God has had enormous formative impact on Western civilization. So trivializing it in this manner simply demonstrates ignorance of the issues.
 

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