4
   

Ulta-orthodox Jews Insist on Segregation from Sephardi Jews in Classrooms

 
 
firefly
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jun, 2010 06:35 pm
@talk72000,
The Rabbis involved in the formation of the ultra-orthodox sects in the 18th and 19th centuries made no Messianic claims.

However, in 1991, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, a prominent hasidic rabbi who was the seventh and most recent Rebbe (hasidic leader) of the Chabad-Lubavitch, declared to his followers: "I have done everything I can [to bring Moshiach], now I am handing over to you [the mission]; do everything you can to bring Moshiach!" A campaign was then started to usher in the Messianic age through "acts of goodness and kindness," and some of his followers placed advertisements in the mass media, including many full-page ads in the New York Times, declaring in Rabbi Schneerson's name that the Moshiach's arrival was imminent, and urging everyone to prepare for and hasten it by increasing their good deeds.

Quote:
Among the Chabad Lubavitch movement of Hasidic Judaism, there was a growing messianic fervour in the late 1980s and early 1990s due to the belief that their Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson was about to reveal himself to be the messiah. Schneerson died in 1994 and some of his followers still believe he will be the messiah and will reveal himself when the time is right. A few years before he died, Rabbi Schneerson accepted a delegation of non Hassidic Rabbis who came to ask him general and specific questions. One of the questions was if he was the Messiah. Rabbi Schneerson vehemently denied the assumption.

Before Schneerson's death in 1994 a significant body of Chabad Hasidim believed that he was soon to become manifest as the Messiah—an event that would herald the Messianic Age and the construction of the Third Temple. Books and pamphlets were written arguing that the Rabbi was the Messiah.

In Schneersohn's later years a movement arose believing that it was their mission to convince the world of his messiahship, and that general acceptance of this claim would lead to his revelation. Adherents to this belief were termed Meshichist. After his stroke, followers routinely sang the song "Yechi Adoneinu Moreinu v'Rabbeinu Melech haMoshiach l'olom vo'ed!" (In English: "Long Live our Master, our Teacher, and our Rabbi, King Messiah, for ever and ever!").

A spectrum of beliefs exists today within the Chabad movement regarding Schneerson and his purported position as the Messiah.While some believe that he died but will return as the messiah, others believe that he is merely "hidden." Other groups believe that he has God-like powers, while a few negate the idea that he is the messiah entirely. The prevalence of these views within the movement is disputed, though very few will openly say that Schneerson cannot be the Messiah.

The belief that Schneerson is the messiah can be traced to the 1950s; it picked up momentum during the decade preceding Schneerson's death in 1994, and has continued to develop since his death.The response of the wider Haredi and Modern Orthodox communities to this belief has been antagonistic; the issue remains controversial within the Jewish world.

Some followers believe that he is able to answer their questions from beyond the grave, through a process of bibliomancy using his collected letters. This practice is known as "Igrot Kodesh", by which answers to questions are derived through consultating the published collections of Schneerson’s letters known as the Igrot Kodesh,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Mendel_Schneerson#.22Moshiach.22_fervor
.
Baal
 
  1  
Sat 19 Jun, 2010 07:17 pm
@firefly,
This is probably the major point of contention that brings much popular sentiment against the Haredi community in Israel. Whereas in the USA most of their schools are funded privately and are indeed not associated with the government at all, in Israel there is something called the "Status Quo", which amounts to a certain amount of state support and sanctioning of the Haredi community. It was a deal brokered with members of Agudath Israel during the foundation of the state -- as the population was sharply divided between the secular who were generally Zionists, and the Haredi (though the term did not really exist that much then, since it was not much time before that where it was considered mainstream Judaism in most of the world) community who were generally apathetic if not antagonistic to the Zionist/Nationalist cause..

And the Status Quo is falling apart because both the Secular and Religious (Haredi) community have radicalized.. hence all the protests and the court decisions against them.. 30 years ago something like this in Israel would have passed without much incident.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Sun 20 Jun, 2010 07:01 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Baal wrote:

While there is a bit of racism in the Hassidic/Harerdi-Ashkenaz community, it is far more complicated than that. Hassidic Jews and Sephardic Jews have different customs and rites, and it has nothing to do with 'racial purity' as the vehemently anti-religious Israeli press prefers to portray it, and which the international press prefers to sensationalize.

That being said, while that particular Hassidic sect (Slonim) does not have many people of Sephardic origin, there are quite a few others that have a large Sephardic contingent (Breslov and Habad in particular); and again Sephardic in the religious community refers more to a set of customs and rites rather than a specific lineage.. I am not taking sides here, but simply saying that the story is more complicated than it is portrayed.

If the Sephardic Jews would adopt the customs of the Slonim Hassidim, I am certain that the Ashkenaz would have no qualms about having their children in the same classroom.


Why should you have to have the exact same customs, to share a classroom of learning? I don't buy that for a second. It's just an excuse for racism, like many we've heard here in the states.

Cycloptichorn


In my opinion, if we were all not racist, we would all be happy if a child brought home a fiancee from another race/ethnicity. However, we know many, or most, parents/relatives really prefer a child to bring home a fiancee of the same racial/ethnic background. I believe many are in denial of our inherent racial attitudes, and how deep they run.

So, the world should not stand in judgement of other's racial attitudes, since as a world amalgam of societies, many are the pot calling the kettle black, so to speak, in my opinion.

Also, some religions do a better job of promulgating non-racist attitudes amongst their adherents, I believe. So, when someone from such a "universal" faith reacts negatively to racism in the world, it might be seen as a form of hubris in the eyes of some folks. In other words, arrogance may masquerade as self-rightousness, perhaps.

Miller
 
  1  
Mon 21 Jun, 2010 09:06 am
@Foofie,
I remember when a black woman was ordained as a reform rabbi ( at a seminary in Cleveland ) and did an internship ( or externship ) in Israel and complained on coming back to the USA, that she felt descrimated against while in Israel.

She is now the rabbi at a predominately white congregation in the USA.
Miller
 
  1  
Mon 21 Jun, 2010 09:15 am
@Miller,
Sexism in the Seminaries:

Non-orthodox seminaries have been granting ordination to women since the 1970s, while orthodox seminaries accept only men as candidates for the rabbinate.

A few orthodox American women have been ordinated following private instruction from an orthodox rabbi. These ordained women, as far as I know , however are not recognized in Israel.
Miller
 
  1  
Mon 21 Jun, 2010 09:17 am
@Miller,
Miller wrote:

I remember when a black woman was ordained as a reform rabbi ( at a seminary in Cleveland ) and did an internship ( or externship ) in Israel and complained on coming back to the USA, that she felt descrimated against while in Israel.

She is now the rabbi at a predominately white congregation in the USA.


Should be: discriminated.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Mon 21 Jun, 2010 09:51 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
In my opinion, if we were all not racist, we would all be happy if a child brought home a fiancee from another race/ethnicity


I would be happy with it. Why would anyone even care?

My wife and I aren't the same race. Who gives a ****? It is the least important factor in our relationship.

Quote:
However, we know many, or most, parents/relatives really prefer a child to bring home a fiancee of the same racial/ethnic background. I believe many are in denial of our inherent racial attitudes, and how deep they run.


I agree with this.

Quote:
So, the world should not stand in judgement of other's racial attitudes, since as a world amalgam of societies, many are the pot calling the kettle black, so to speak, in my opinion.


I disagree with this, completely. The world should stand in judgment of all those who would make race a issue of primary importance, when in truth it is the least important thing about a person.

Cycloptichorn
talk72000
 
  1  
Mon 21 Jun, 2010 11:54 am
@firefly,
I read all that and when he died there was talk that he was the messaih andwould come back alive.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Mon 21 Jun, 2010 02:00 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
You might just be ahead of the world by a millenium or two? There are always pioneers in every endeavor.

However, humans seem to crave an identity, so even when there is mixing between two original groups, the "hybrid" eventually takes on its own new identity. I will use for an example, my own identity - Ashkenazi Jew. No Semitic pedigree by far; however, an identity that many give credence to.

But, as an American you are in a society that in theory subscribes to your thinking. Not so in some other countries. Perhaps, that can be a plus for the U.S.A. in your mind?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Mon 21 Jun, 2010 02:12 pm
@Miller,
Miller wrote:

I remember when a black woman was ordained as a reform rabbi ( at a seminary in Cleveland ) and did an internship ( or externship ) in Israel and complained on coming back to the USA, that she felt descrimated against while in Israel.

She is now the rabbi at a predominately white congregation in the USA.


I would think Moses was Black, since at that time the Pharohs were probably Black Africans (Egypt was not yet conquered by the Arabs), and Moses did not stand out in the Royal Court.

In effect, my "whiteness" is an accident of history. So is my dislike for hot weather. Being Ashkenazi comes with a whole different story line than Sephardim. Like watching two WWII movies; one set in the Pacific, the other set in the European theater.

However, at this very moment I just feel American. Being Jewish (secular) and Ashkenazi is just the "packaging" I came in.



0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  0  
Mon 21 Jun, 2010 05:19 pm
cycloptichorn quote:
Quote:
Why would anyone even care?


For the same reasons that Obama doesn't send his kids to public school in either Washington DC or Chicago...
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Tue 22 Jun, 2010 01:03 pm
@Miller,
The ultra-orthodox Jewish sects are no more "sexist" in failing to ordain female rabbis than is the Catholic church in refusing to ordain female priests, or in wanting to retain nuns only as the brides of Christ. Both groups will cite religious reasons for these actions and decisions.

I'm not sure that "sexism" really applies to these religious groups. I don't think they should be judged by secular standards like "equality" in terms of civil rights. These religious groups are living by standards, norms, and rules, which are religiously based, and, therefore, quite separate and apart from the standards, moral authority, and civil rights laws of the secular world. I'm not sure the secular world has any right to tell these religious groups how they should be functioning and living, unless they break criminal laws.

And, it is important to remember that Israel is really a secular state. Therefore, some of these ultra-orthodox sects, like the Haredi, are always going to be at odds with the secularism of the state, and some of the other ultra-orthodox sects are actually anti-Zionist, which definitely puts them at odds with the state. This may be a situation which is rather unique to Israel.

Off-hand I can't think of other religions, besides Judaism where one would find secular members, in fairly large numbers. In other religions, you identify as a member because of how you were religiously brought up or educated, or whether or not you observe the rituals and practices of the religion. That is not entirely the case with Judaism. One is considered Jewish by birth, if born to a Jewish mother, whether or not one ever had any religious education, or ever stepped foot into a synagogue, or had a bar mitzvah, etc.--a person is matrilineally a Jew by birth. Therefore, one can be a Jewish atheist or agnostic, one can be a secular (or ethnic) Jew, with no religious framework to one's life at all. Jews can feel connected by ethnic, historical, and cultural factors, having nothing at all to do with religious observance. The whole issue of Jewish identity is rather complex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F

If one doesn't understand something of the nature of the clashes between secular Jews and ultra-orthodox Jews, the conflicts going on in Israel with the Haredi really don't make sense, or can easily be misinterpreted. The court ruling in Israel, regarding segregated schools, can be seen, by the Haredi, as the secular state slapping down, and interfering with, the religious beliefs and practices of their ultra-orthodox group, and that's why they protested in the streets.

The Haredi don't want their children even going to school with other children who have TVs in their homes, because TV violates their religious beliefs and practices--and that's one objection the Haredi have to the Sephardi/Mizrahi students being in the same classroom with their children, they don't want their children even indirectly exposed to such secular influences. These ultra-orthodox want to remain as insular and insulated from the secular world as possible. They do not want the form or nature of their religious practices, or those of their children, influenced by assimilation into the secular world, or even influenced by other forms of Judaism (as represented by the Sephardi).

I actually understood none of this before finding this thread. But, the topic peaked my curiosity, so I have been doing quite a bit of reading on the subject and the situation in Israel. I think I now have some idea of how complicated it all is.

The more liberal, and secular, Israeli media tend to portray the Haredi as being racist in wanting segregated schools, basing this on the fact that the Sephardi/Mizrahi students in these schools tend to be from Arab or African countries, and somewhat darker skinned. But, that's the view of a media which is biased toward a secular perspective, and it does ignore the very real religious differences between these groups. It is a somewhat negatively slanted view of the Haredi, which mirrors the larger ultra-orthodox/secular clashes going on in Israeli society.

After doing some reading, I'm not at all convinced that the Haredi are racist, I do think this school issue is more of a religious/ethnic conflict than one having to do with skin color. It is discrimination, but I suspect the Haredi probably discriminate against everyone who isn't a member of their group, and it has little or nothing to do with race. If they were in the U.S., they would likely run their own private schools and keep everyone else, besides Haredi, out. In Israel, the schools take money from the state, so the secular state can have a say in matters such as school segregation, and that's what those school protests were all about. This is a secular state/ultra-religious sect culture clash, rather than the state taking a stand against racism. Racism really doesn't seem to be the main issue.

From my reading, I also found that the Sephardi/Mizrahi are generally one of the most economically disadvantaged groups in Israel. They have tended to live in the poorer neighborhoods, have less advantaged schools, pursue higher education less frequently, work at poorer paying jobs, etc. Whether this has been the case because they are one of the more recent immigrant groups, or because their skins tend to be darker and they have been discriminated against based on racial factors, isn't all that clear. But, at least one writer I read, felt it was extremely hypocritical of the liberal media to brand the Haredi as being "racist", when they themselves have accepted the somewhat second class socio-economic status of the Sephardi/Mizrahi Jews in their midst. In other words, the Haredi are no more or less racist than anyone else in Israel when it comes to the perception and treatment of the Sephardi/Mizrahi. And the whole matter of discrimination in Israel is quite a controversial, and sometimes, heated topic.

I must say, I have really enjoyed this topic because it has motivated me to learn more about a culture I really didn't know all that well, and to try to understand the frictions between the groups that are sub-divisions of that culture. It is all very interesting. And the clashes and conflicts between the various types of Jews seem every bit as strong as the Israeli/Arab differences I have heard much more about.






0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  2  
Tue 20 Jul, 2010 12:23 pm
btw, Israel's Ultra-Orthodox Reject the Diaspora, Threatening to Split World Jewry
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/07/19/israels-ultra-orthodox-reject-the-diaspora-threatening-to-spli/

Just what I said earlier; meshugana.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Israel's Reality - Discussion by Miller
THE WAR IN GAZA - Discussion by Advocate
Israel's Shame - Discussion by BigEgo
Eye On Israel/Palestine - Discussion by IronLionZion
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.08 seconds on 11/23/2024 at 02:50:17