Are we each alone?

A Lyn Fei wrote:

Wait, you are arguing that there is no absolute X, absolute standpoint, and yet you believe two people can absolutely understand one another?

I'm arguing that two people can understand one another. There never was an "absolute understanding". You know, the sort of understanding you guys are saying we can't have. You're just convoluting the matter.

Quote:

Every time I say something is absolutely X, I will think (or you should hope that I'll think) about what you have said about absolutes, even if it is on a subconscious level. Not that I agree with you about absolutes.

The word is often misused and contributes to a great many complications. In other words, based on my experience, when people employ the word "absolute" whilst philosophizing, it makes a matter more complicated than it really is.

1 Reply

@Jebediah,

Jebediah wrote:

Yes, it's one of those "take a basic fact, reword it incorrectly so it sounds deep and amazing" threads...but the subject is interesting.

Not exactly. That people are capable of understanding each other and communicating is a given. The point of this thread here is to find out to what extent can we understand one another. That also happens to basically be the point of the social sciences.

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Why do you think you know more about what's going on in your own head than you do about what's going on in someone elses?

Well, I'm not a mind reader. And I do feel that I have a much better fix on what's going on inside my mind than the minds of others. Why wouldn't I? If you believe the opposite, then I do think you really need some help tuning in with your own thoughts and emotions.

Quote:

I mean, there's a lot to say about the subject, but talking about how we are all alone and have no connectivity is wrong in a literal sense, and trivial in the way they are being used.

I didn't say we're all alone or that we have no connectivity. Just that our thoughts are not always fully expressed through language, and that our connectivity is limited in this sense.

1 Reply

@A Lyn Fei,

A Lyn Fei wrote:

Wait, you are arguing that there is no absolute X, absolute standpoint, and yet you believe two people can absolutely understand one another?

Yes, this right here, exactly.

1 Reply

@Pangloss,

Pangloss wrote:

A Lyn Fei wrote:

Wait, you are arguing that there is no absolute X, absolute standpoint, and yet you believe two people can absolutely understand one another?

Yes, this right here, exactly.

There is no "absolute standpoint". We either understand each other, or we do not understand each other. Sometimes it is difficult knowing if we do, sure, but sometimes it is not. There's not much complicated about it at all.

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

The word is often misused and contributes to a great many complications. In other words, based on my experience, when people employ the word "absolute" whilst philosophizing, it makes a matter more complicated than it really is.

The word is often necessary to bring up in a discussion, simply because absolute statements are often made without realizing that that's what they are. Like when you stated:

Zetherin wrote:

But we definitely have the capacity to understand each other fully.

You made an absolute statement about the capacity of our understanding one another, perhaps, without realizing it. In fact, you are the one taking an absolutist stance, where language can apparently communicate all of our thoughts perfectly to one another. I'm just questioning this and saying that, probably, there is some content in the original idea that wasn't fully conveyed.

1 Reply

@Pangloss,

Pangloss wrote:

You made an absolute statement about the capacity of our understanding one another, perhaps, without realizing it. In fact, you are the one taking an absolutist stance, where language can apparently communicate all of our thoughts perfectly to one another. I'm just questioning this and saying that, probably, there is some content in the original idea that wasn't fully conveyed.

I am sure that we can understand each other. And by fully, I just meant, he clearly understood every word and what I meant by it. If you think that I am taking an "absolutist stance" because I am sure of this, then so be it.

But I really do insist that you're convoluting the matter. Often all of the content in the original idea is conveyed. And I've given examples. One day I said to my friend, "Have a seat", he heard me, and then he sat down in the seat. All I meant by what I said, all the original idea was, was that I wanted him to sit down. He understood that. And, so, I would say he fully understood me. And since I believe this, I'm taking an "absolutist stance"? Alright, whatever that means.

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@A Lyn Fei,

A Lyn Fei wrote:

We cannot experience another person's thoughts. Therefore, are we ever truly connected or do we spend our days purely in isolation?

It has been said that if we are all alone, we are also in that together. This is dissatisfying, so I leave it to anyone who might have a different idea.

Furthermore, it seems to me that this experience of isolation could either lead to thinking that there is no proof that anyone else exists, but it could also be that this is proof of something beyond the self.

So, are we each alone?

No, you are never alone. The language you use is a product of the community. If you think, read, you are using language, but language is a set of conventions agreed upon by each member of the community.

You are also not alone. You learn the word 'philosophy'. You learn of the history, and historical figures. These people that live in the past all had an effect on you, because you think of them, and their ideas. At no point are you alone, when you are thinking, verbalizing.

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@Pangloss,

Pangloss wrote:

Jebediah wrote:

Yes, it's one of those "take a basic fact, reword it incorrectly so it sounds deep and amazing" threads...but the subject is interesting.

Not exactly. That people are capable of understanding each other and communicating is a given. The point of this thread here is to find out to what extent can we understand one another. That also happens to basically be the point of the social sciences.

We are struggling against the OP to make that the point of the thread.

Quote:

Well, I'm not a mind reader. And I do feel that I have a much better fix on what's going on inside my mind than the minds of others. Why wouldn't I? If you believe the opposite, then I do think you really need some help tuning in with your own thoughts and emotions.

If you aren't a mind reader, how do you read your own mind? We can tell genuine smiles from fake smiles. People tell us their thoughts with their words, sometimes even more than they mean to. Why do you think I believe "the opposite"? That kind of talk is exactly what we are trying to get away from. There are some things that we know about ourselves that are hidden from others, there are some things they know about us that are hidden from us. We have a tremendous ability to communicate. I can look at someone and know what they are feeling (e.g. we are both laughing at the same joke) That is a very different from the "we are each an island, we are alone, we have no "real connectivity" (<--still unexplained) talk of the OP and rest of thread.

Quote:

I didn't say we're all alone or that we have no connectivity. Just that our thoughts are not always fully expressed through language, and that our connectivity is limited in this sense.

Our thoughts aren't fully expressed in the way we word things internally either. Sometimes we say exactly the words in our head--and maybe reveal the feeling behind it that we haven't put a finger on but is written all over our face.

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@A Lyn Fei,

A Lyn Fei wrote:

We cannot experience another person's thoughts. Therefore, are we ever truly connected or do we spend our days purely in isolation?

It has been said that if we are all alone, we are also in that together. This is dissatisfying, so I leave it to anyone who might have a different idea.

Furthermore, it seems to me that this experience of isolation could either lead to thinking that there is no proof that anyone else exists, but it could also be that this is proof of something beyond the self.

So, are we each alone?

Ultimately, yes.

However, we vicariously experience connectedness with other beings via the sensory apparatus of hearing, vision, taste, smell and touch.

1 Reply

@stevecook172001,

stevecook172001 wrote:

A Lyn Fei wrote:

We cannot experience another person's thoughts. Therefore, are we ever truly connected or do we spend our days purely in isolation?

It has been said that if we are all alone, we are also in that together. This is dissatisfying, so I leave it to anyone who might have a different idea.

Furthermore, it seems to me that this experience of isolation could either lead to thinking that there is no proof that anyone else exists, but it could also be that this is proof of something beyond the self.

So, are we each alone?

Ultimately, yes.

However, we vicariously experience connectedness with other beings via the sensory apparatus of hearing, vision, taste, smell and touch.

Ah, but cannot those sensory receptors be tricked? What, then, would create a feeling of connectedness if one were to find out that instead of a person they had held the whole night through, it was really a pillow? Does it even matter if we are not connected as long as we believe that we are?

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Anyone see the old flick "Brainstorm"?

It was a quasi sci-fi/romance movie about a man who develops neural transmitter-receiver technology. If you and I were connected (wearing these spiffy headsets), you would see, feel, think and experience everything (including sensations) that I am - directly. I seem to recall one of the latter parts of the movie where a feuding husband and wife end up realizing how much they didn't realize the other was feeling, despite all their years. Ya gotta love a happy ending now and then...

We do make touch visually, through speech and hearing, body gestures, facial expressions and even the 'messages' we send and receive by the things we do. I don't think anyone is trying to refute these communicative mediums or their value. But despite all we do, my neural signals are in my own head; that essence of what I'm thinking (not just the one thought at present, but all its accompanying relevant connections) is enclosed in a hard shell. There's no length of text - no long set of speeches or combination of the above methods - that can fully or completely communicate the intensity, complexity and quality of my thoughts, no matter how simple; there will always be relevant parts of any message that are lost in translation. I think the numerous examples given show this. Would we want to? Hell, I don't know - I'd guess sometimes 'yea' and sometimes 'no way'.

While some can communicate more or less fully, we all end up with a ubiquitous sensation of being 'alone' within our own thoughts. This is neither good nor bad - it simply is the way things are; and our lot to deal with. The philosophical worth to this whole stew is this: How much are we alone? Can you feel it? Are you aware? Does it bother you? How might life be if we could "plug in" our minds? or just a "Oh Look! Cows!!"

I'll shut up on this now - but I still find the whole notion quite fascinating and telling of our issues with communication in general.

Thanks

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This thread reminds me of the movie Avatar, in which the people, when they meet, say "I see you." It's a quite wonderful feeling to experience another human being actually understanding what you have said. And the word itself reveals one reason why it is wonderful, because it tells you that this person has been willing to stand and move under your position to see things from where YOU are standing.

I feel sorrow for anyone who feels isolated because they THINK they are alone simply because language limits our understanding. Of course it does -- words are just handles for the thing we are trying to communicate to others. But they work pretty well, as many of you have pointed out, and they can be enhanced by looks, body language, a touch on the shoulder and so forth.

My cats don't have any problem understanding how I feel about them when I pet them, brush them or kneel down as they come out of the pasture -- without ever saying a word. Do I understand in any absolute way what is going on in their heads? Of course not, but that doesn't make me feel alone. And the same can be said about my wife, my friends and even strangers in the grocery store.

And let me remind all of you that individualism is NOT the same thing as individuation. Read Carl Jung for a more complete understanding of the differences between independent, dependent and interdependent...

--Bill

"Whatever you say is true IS until you learn to say something else..."

1 Reply

@qwertyportne,

Beautiful post Bill. That's the way I feel too. I think the sense of 'aloneness' is actually a conceit. We are all on the beautiful earth together. (Although I am somewhat taken aback by the fact that your cats "go out to pasture". Reminds me of this classic video)

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Quote:

Are we each alone?

Yes

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@jeeprs,

jeeprs wrote:

Beautiful post Bill. That's the way I feel too. I think the sense of 'aloneness' is actually a conceit. We are all on the beautiful earth together. (Although I am somewhat taken aback by the fact that your cats "go out to pasture". Reminds me of this classic video)

Jeepers,

Thanks for the reply. More proof (in my book) that we can and often do understand one another far beyond mere words. And I've always laughed at myself when I interpret agreement as understanding and disagreement as misunderstanding. As if the feeling of aloneness goes up or down with the level of agreement, independently of understanding.

Yes, a conceit, which reminds me of something I read just a few days ago in Will Durant's The Lessons of History. In the last chapter, he says, "Our capacity for fretting is endless, and no matter hoew many difficulties we surmount, how many ideals we realize, we shall always find an excuse for being magnificently miserable; there is a stealthy pleasure in [and so forth]..."

And thanks for the link to the video. Wow, that is a classic. Never saw it before. Showed it to my wife and we both laughed and cried at the same time. Your phrase "beautiful earth" reminds me of a phrase in the Disiderata, which in my opinion is the wisest, most practical philosophy I have ever read. Towards the end, it reads, "With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..."

--Bill

1 Reply

@qwertyportne,

Thanks. I like WIll Durant too. A great writer and scholar.

The sure antidote to aloneness is empathy:

'Empathy: the power of understanding and imaginatively entering into another person's feelings'.

Very Happy

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@A Lyn Fei,

A Lyn Fei wrote:

Quote:
We cannot experience another person's thoughts. Therefore, are we ever truly connected or do we spend our days purely in isolation?

what if you find another though that expresses your thoughts ?

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@north,

north wrote:

A Lyn Fei wrote:

Quote:
We cannot experience another person's thoughts. Therefore, are we ever truly connected or do we spend our days purely in isolation?

what if you find another though that expresses your thoughts ?

If I find another person that truly expresses my thoughts? I will love them. And I won't be alone.

1 Reply

@A Lyn Fei,

A Lyn Fei wrote:

If I find another person that truly expresses my thoughts? I will love them. And I won't be alone.

Then this forum is a good place to start, but you are more likely to find a "cure" for your aloneness at the public library where neither time nor place can separate you from the hearts and minds of people who put their thoughts on paper. Books, I love 'em... Smile

--Bill

"To use the self is to forget the self -- worry, anxiety and loneliness all disappear..." Zen saying
"Loneliness doesn't come from having nobody around, but from not being able or willing to communicate what is sacred and valuable to you." --Carl Jung

1 Reply

@qwertyportne,

I am not alone. I love a few good people. In this thread I was merely getting at the issue of being trapped in our own heads and unable to connect with our world and other people in it.
Thank you for your comment. Books are wonderful at any time Smile

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