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Are we each alone?

 
 
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 06:31 am
We cannot experience another person's thoughts. Therefore, are we ever truly connected or do we spend our days purely in isolation?

It has been said that if we are all alone, we are also in that together. This is dissatisfying, so I leave it to anyone who might have a different idea.

Furthermore, it seems to me that this experience of isolation could either lead to thinking that there is no proof that anyone else exists, but it could also be that this is proof of something beyond the self.

So, are we each alone?
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Type: Question • Score: 7 • Views: 5,092 • Replies: 60
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William
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 06:54 am
@A Lyn Fei,
A Lyn Fei wrote:

We cannot experience another person's thoughts. Therefore, are we ever truly connected or do we spend our days purely in isolation?

It has been said that if we are all alone, we are also in that together. This is dissatisfying, so I leave it to anyone who might have a different idea.

Furthermore, it seems to me that this experience of isolation could either lead to thinking that there is no proof that anyone else exists, but it could also be that this is proof of something beyond the self.

So, are we each alone?


Hello Lyn Fei, what a very sincere question. Please allow me to share my thoughts with you.

Yes, it does seem we are alone and why the “ego” exists. I promise you it will not always be that way. We will “get it together” someday. Self is a lonely hunter and will find the answers once we begin to “tune in” with each other beyond atonement and forgive all we have done in that isolated state to our fellow human in their isolated state. We have no choice in that matter. Just believe it is all that matters and then it will come to pass and we will most assuredly WELCOME IT.

William
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 08:14 am
@A Lyn Fei,
Hey there,

Excellent opener, by the way.

A Lyn Fei wrote:
We cannot experience another person's thoughts. Therefore, are we ever truly connected or do we spend our days purely in isolation?

Correct, mentally - and in that place internally where our consciousness resides - yes; we are alone.

A Lyn Fei wrote:
It has been said that if we are all alone, we are also in that together.

Yea... a seeming contradiction. But in this context I take it to mean that while we're alone in our own heads, that physically we're 'together' in two contexts: 1) Physically, as in coexisting in corporeal form in relative proximity -and- 2) That we are together in the way that we're sharing this mental isolation simultaneously.

A Lyn Fei wrote:
Furthermore, it seems to me that this experience of isolation could either lead to thinking that there is no proof that anyone else exists, but it could also be that this is proof of something beyond the self.

I suppose so. Many stand quite petulantly on the "Prove to me that someone else exists!" and seem quite comfortable there. To my mind, it can quite solidly supported - through reason - that others DO exist. Even so, your point is well taken.

Proof is an elusive ferret, each time you think you've got him someone tosses in yet another chew-toy. Some don't hold much water, others seem quite convincing. But I believe that skepticism (in this case, on our existence) can be taken far past the practical, healthy and reasonable point. My experience tells me that at some point it ceases to be worthwhile to keep questioning. "Take it, resolve it to your satisfaction and move on" is a point I often reach.

On a side note: This "aloneness" is something I think constantly haunts us (one some level or another); that we reach out in different ways trying to make touch, relate and quell that isolation. This alone is an extremely under-estimated facet of the human existence, in my opinion.

Thanks again
0 Replies
 
Shapeless
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 08:20 am
@A Lyn Fei,
Quote:
We cannot experience another person's thoughts. Therefore, are we ever truly connected


It depends on whether you think experiencing the exact contents of another person's thoughts is necessary for being truly connected. I'm inclined to relax the criteria a bit and say that we can be connected to someone if you can elicit some positive response from what someone says their thoughts are, even if you can't get inside their head and map their thoughts onto yours in a one-to-one relationship. That's good enough for me.
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 08:22 am


I want to live alone in the desert
I want to be like Georgia O'Keefe
I want to live on the Upper East Side
And never go down in the street

Splendid Isolation
I don't need no one
Splendid Isolation

Michael Jackson in Disneyland
Don't have to share it with nobody else
Lock the gates, Goofy, take my hand
And lead me through the World of Self

Splendid Isolation
I don't need no one
Splendid Isolation

Don't want to wake up with no one beside me
Don't want to take up with nobody new
Don't want nobody coming by without calling first
Don't want nothing to do with you

I'm putting tinfoil up on the windows
Lying down in the dark to dream
I don't want to see their faces
I don't want to hear them scream

Splendid Isolation
I don't need no one
Splendid Isolation

Splendid Isolation
I don't need no one
Splendid Isolation
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 08:27 am
@A Lyn Fei,
A Lyn Fei wrote:

We cannot experience another person's thoughts. Therefore, are we ever truly connected or do we spend our days purely in isolation?

It has been said that if we are all alone, we are also in that together. This is dissatisfying, so I leave it to anyone who might have a different idea.

Furthermore, it seems to me that this experience of isolation could either lead to thinking that there is no proof that anyone else exists, but it could also be that this is proof of something beyond the self.

So, are we each alone?

We are alone, are born alone and die that way... Yet we are not true individuals, unless considered as individual men or women... Because we are dieocious, to be fertile -we must bond, and mate; and to do that we must both sacrifice a bit of ourselves and take on a bit of the other... The true, individual human is two people, man and wife, and then loneliness should be the least of ones problems...

Individualism is the myth that makes our misery possible... Lonliness is the curse of the modern age, and it is because that crap of individualism as been preached from every corner... You do not see the rich buy into it... The successful people in life learn how to make a deal, form a corporation, and make common cause against the body politic... Having the individual, no community can defend, or discipline their own...There is no creditable defense of group rights... Everyone is on their own and expected to be, and so the advantage of community living is lost to them...
A Lyn Fei
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 09:03 am
@William,
You are suggesting that the "ego" is our own way of keeping ourselves company until we find out that we are not alone anymore? Are we not truly alone in the first place, then?

Thank you for the response. It is also very sincere.
A Lyn Fei
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 09:07 am
@djjd62,
Thank you for the musical response. I do believe I feel a connection between music and my brain. That might be the answer to my question I was looking for.
0 Replies
 
A Lyn Fei
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 09:36 am
@Fido,
So, do you mean that when we interact we take on traits of another person and in this way are connected? Because I can understand this argument, though it feels more about parroting the other when two people bond.
Nowadays, man and wife means two people that believe they know each other because they have spent time together, can predict the other's actions, and are reliant on their existence in financial and emotional matters. However, many marriages end because of loneliness.
Being an individual is a good thing. To have your own ideals and speak your mind helps humanity evolve. I don't think that the price of loneliness is necessary.
As far as rich people are concerned there is a difference between being rich and being happy. Decidedly, they can go hand in hand, but in most cases they do not. But I do agree that there needs to be more community and this loss does lead to high expectations of the individual which cause many problems.
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 10:25 am
I prefer to think of our behavior as an answer to this question. We are a social animal, without socialization we do not develope to our full potential. Without socialization isolated incidents like the case of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_(feral_child), severe isolation will even make one functionally retarded. Granted this does not answer the brain in the vat question, but if you assume the actual existence of others it shows that if were were truely alone we could not be what we are supposed to be.
0 Replies
 
Jebediah
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 10:41 am
@A Lyn Fei,
A Lyn Fei wrote:

We cannot experience another person's thoughts. Therefore, are we ever truly connected or do we spend our days purely in isolation?

So, are we each alone?


Separate and distinct is not the same thing as alone, it is quite different and I'm not sure why you are confusing the two. You know the difference between being away from other people for a while and from laughing and having a good time with a group of friends.

What do you mean by "truly connected"?
William
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 11:49 am
@A Lyn Fei,
A Lyn Fei wrote:

You are suggesting that the "ego" is our own way of keeping ourselves company until we find out that we are not alone anymore? Are we not truly alone in the first place, then?

Thank you for the response. It is also very sincere.


Yes, we have never tuned up. We are not a library of books who are judged by their covers as we evolve to a musical masterpiece that each we are no longer practicing in the pit before our stellar performance as we have a most amazing Maestro and we will follow his ever magic wand when we play and we will all applaud each other when we play and hear that beautiful music together. Intuition will be defined, atonement will be over and life will begin. When would you like to play..........now or later?

Tra la la sis boom bah bah black sheep have you any wool will no longer be pulled over your eyes will have it will allow us to see from sea to shining sea like we have never seen before we were so very blind to the light that will show us the way forever and a day and all days to come all yea faithful ones. Aaaah, understanding that very first word we ever did speak.

Thanks for asking,

William and his friend; Thee only Maestro
William
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 12:05 pm
@William,
William wrote:

A Lyn Fei wrote:

You are suggesting that the "ego" is our own way of keeping ourselves company until we find out that we are not alone anymore? Are we not truly alone in the first place, then?

Thank you for the response. It is also very sincere.


Yes, we have never tuned up. We are not a library of books who are judged by their covers as we evolve to a musical masterpiece that each we are no longer practicing in the pit before our stellar performance as we have a most amazing Maestro and we will follow his ever magic wand when we play and we will all applaud each other when we play and hear that beautiful music together. Intuition will be defined, atonement will be over and life will begin. When would you like to play..........now or later?

Tra la la sis boom bah bah black sheep have you any wool will no longer be pulled over your eyes will have it will allow us to see from sea to shining sea like we have never seen before we were so very blind to the light that will show us the way forever and a day and all days to come all yea faithful ones. Aaaah, understanding that very first word we ever did speak.

Thanks for asking,

William and his friend; Thee only Maestro



Here A Lyn is what I think is a good depiction of US tuning up by Karl Jenkins done by Enya. You may compare it to the above "Splendid Isolation". I have and to me, there is no comparison between the two. Of course you are free to chose yourself which one you life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovVPmm7_Ezg

William
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 12:09 pm
@A Lyn Fei,
Quote:
A Lyn Fei wrote:

So, do you mean that when we interact we take on traits of another person and in this way are connected? Because I can understand this argument, though it feels more about parroting the other when two people bond.
When people bond, it really is that they become as one, and their goals are shared, intelligence, experiences, and dreams.... When people care for others, the devision between themselves and others blurrs or disappears.. They feel with the other their pain and joy...
Quote:
Nowadays, man and wife means two people that believe they know each other because they have spent time together, can predict the other's actions, and are reliant on their existence in financial and emotional matters. However, many marriages end because of loneliness.

Marriage is a form... Well, everything is a form, and we see life not so much as it is, but through its form, and; All forms are forms of relationship... Marriage is also a social form... Love is a form too, but when love is made official then it becomes a social form, like religion or government... What its meaning is, ultimately, is the meaning people give to it...There is the form, the oaths, the party, the mutual gifts and consideration, and then, there is the relationship that does not have much to do with the form, really... and it is in the relationship that people find their meaning, as a sort of dynamic, as their lives are played out... When the relationship dies, if it ever was alive, then people left in the form without meaning do suffer much pain from loneliness...It is inevitable, but in such social forms, even as in our nation, as the form dies, relationships suffer... The meaning goes out of the form, and people are left alone, disconnected, vulnerable...


Quote:
Being an individual is a good thing. To have your own ideals and speak your mind helps humanity evolve. I don't think that the price of loneliness is necessary.


Think about it... Individualism is a good thing??? Who told you that??? Can you prove it, or have you simply heard it forever??? The process by which communities were separated into individuals has been going on it the West for barely a thousand years, and it has led to the destruction of whole groups, even of the rich, and nobles who most benefitted from it.... When people could no longer stand as a group and defend their group rights they were doomed... Look at the closing of the commons in Europe... Poverty came into consciousness at that very time because so many people were forced onto the streets because their small estates, without their common property could not support them.. Whole generations left the farm, fed their bodies into the industrial revolution and died too poor to have ever had children... Was being an individual good for them??? We are reaching the same point in this country... The old either have no children to support them, or their children are so reduced that they cannot afford to... So Gramma is given a reverse mortgage and in the end dies leaving no capital or wealth behind... We are taught that we are individuals.. We cannot defend our old from predation, nor discipline our young without fear of the law...We can have no class consciousness without some one deriding us as the herd... The rich never fear such slander... They have a class consciousness to unite against their Helots, and to exploit them for their wealth... Individualism is a joke at most times until it becomes tragedy...
Quote:
As far as rich people are concerned there is a difference between being rich and being happy. Decidedly, they can go hand in hand, but in most cases they do not. But I do agree that there needs to be more community and this loss does lead to high expectations of the individual which cause many problems.


The rich have the sense to put survival before happines..
A Lyn Fei
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 02:30 pm
@Jebediah,
I mean inside of our heads. Alone in our minds. We cannot share thoughts. There is always a layer of deception going on with or without intending it. I see a person as a figure who has said one millionth of the thoughts going through their head. They use language to say this- language which is slightly different from how I interpret it. With all of these barriers between people, can anyone ever feel connected to another being, or is any feeling of connectivity false?
Jebediah
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 02:35 pm
@A Lyn Fei,
A Lyn Fei wrote:

I mean inside of our heads. Alone in our minds. We cannot share thoughts. There is always a layer of deception going on with or without intending it. I see a person as a figure who has said one millionth of the thoughts going through their head. They use language to say this- language which is slightly different from how I interpret it. With all of these barriers between people, can anyone ever feel connected to another being, or is any feeling of connectivity false?


Yes, I feel connected to people every day. And I am. You are confusing yourself I think.

What does it mean to say that we are "alone in our minds"? You mean that we don't have schizophrenia? But of course.
A Lyn Fei
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 02:39 pm
@William,
I like both musical pieces. They are quite unique and both exemplify music's ability to transcend our aloneness. Here is a poem for thought, if you like.

http://www.davidwhyte.com/english_everything.html

Who is this Maestro you speak of? Perhaps you might elaborate a little.
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  0  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 02:44 pm
Khethil wrote:
But I believe that skepticism (in this case, on our existence) can be taken far past the practical, healthy and reasonable point. My experience tells me that at some point it ceases to be worthwhile to keep questioning. "Take it, resolve it to your satisfaction and move on" is a point I often reach.


Yes, and to add to this, we shouldn't doubt just for the sake of doubting. I believe we should often have a good reason to doubt, just as we should have a good reason to believe. Extreme skepticism, it seems, is a form of paranoia.
0 Replies
 
A Lyn Fei
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 02:51 pm
@Fido,
I don't think when people bond, they become as one. I think that they care about the other and share things about themselves, but this doesn't mean they can rely on the other person as though they were a body part.

I have deliberated on individualism before, good sir, and I have come to the conclusion that it is a good thing. I don't believe that we practice individualism in a good way in the Western world. After all, everyone being able to buy at a few stores and listen to a few songs on the radio over and over doesn't inspire actual individual thought. I think I see the issue: yes, we are taught that we are individuals, but we are not actually so. Working in a factory does not make us individuals. Working on a farm, does. Having a family business does. And money doesn't make you an individual either.

The rich take from the poor and force them to be one amongst the sheep that are led to slaughter. You seem to say how terrible it is for the poor, yet you credit the rich for survivalism? Why?
I say it is better to be poor and happy than rich and fat.
0 Replies
 
A Lyn Fei
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 03:00 pm
@Jebediah,
I am not confused. Actually this is quite making my point stronger. You don't know what I'm talking about and it is because we are quite literally speaking a different language. My experiences have shaped my words a certain way and it's the same for you. This means that we are separated by many degrees of understanding and that separation begins solely because my consciousness cannot exist outside of my own mind.
 

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