On freewill and choice.

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper wrote:

Random meaning contingent. What happens from one moment to the next is not determined before the event happens.

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
Magic thinking out of sheer modern ignorance is simply unacceptable...oh well, but then maybe, you just randomly believe in randomness, not all is lost !

I agree that it's unacceptable. That's why I reject the mysterious notion of a clockwork universe that has all these magical laws of nature (obviously made by a magical lawmaker) making it tick. No, the universe just is, that's the simplest explanation. It's less magical than claiming that the universe has to be that way because of magical laws of nature or that the universe is somehow already planned out in advance. If you believe in God, these beliefs probably fit for you. For a modern person that gave up myths and superstition, my view is to be preferred.

There, maybe I've heaped on the anti-magic rhetoric enough so you will see that I consider myself more empirical and rational than you.

Why do law´s have to be made by anyone ??? begging the question...
I don´t believe in the traditional God either, at best in the Unity of the Universe, but that does not change a thing in my view...

When you say magical Law´s you are thinking through time...wile I try to get out of it and see an eternal unified Totality which is both indestructible and necessary by absence of anything else, not even nothingness to oppose it... of course I have this intuitive impression that you don´t have a clue to what I am speaking of, but then I don´t have a clue either to what you mean with that random thinking of yours...

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To where I stand Randomness imply´s action through nothingness, and that is the magical absurdity that I find unacceptable !

...often people just content with minor explanation and don´t look hard enough to the questions that lie´s in front of them...

Random is so disharmonious that even cannot be random in full for itself, given if random is always random then random is not anymore random...dig it ? Cool

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Randomness imply´s action through nothingness

As free will obviously requires an agent, it's not a claim about "action through nothingness".

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

When you say magical Law´s you are thinking through time...wile I try to get out of it and see an eternal unified Totality which is both indestructible and necessary by absence of anything else, not even nothingness to oppose it... of course I have this intuitive impression that you don´t have a clue to what I am speaking of, but then I don´t have a clue either to what you mean with that random thinking of yours...

Yes, the problem is that you're just dreaming up a fantasy while I'm limiting myself to what I could possibly know. I don't have access to some eternal blahity-blahity-blah-blah so I'll just assume it doesn't exist until otherwise. I'm not saying that I know it doesn't exist, just that I don't really care since it's unobservable and therefore doesn't seem to affect me in any way.

0 Replies

@ughaibu,

ughaibu wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
Randomness imply´s action through nothingness

As free will obviously requires an agent, it's not a claim about "action through nothingness".

In close observation that idea is self contradictory...
...Will requires cause to be willed, therefore causal chains, necessarily the word "free" behind it must get out of the picture...

Action through nothingness concerns a future which is yet to become and that is undecided...the open void in front that is created with that approach is to were I stand the magical thinking which must be purged in order to achieve a deeper notion of pure Unity and Dialectics.

Time and Space do not chop Totality as the Necessary Existent World that we live to haves, and half haves...What is must be once it always was and will ever be !

Nothing can actually be destroyed, all there is is therefore a Necessary True !

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

In close observation that idea is self contradictory...
...Will requires cause to be willed, therefore causal chains, necessarily the word "free" behind it must get out of the picture...

Rubbish! And I am sick of explaining this. Cause and effect does not conflict with free will, cause and effect does not imply determinism. Mathematical randomness conflicts with determinism but not with cause and effect, intentional randomness conflicts with free will. This is not difficult to get, think about it!

2 Replies

@ughaibu,

ughaibu wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
In close observation that idea is self contradictory...
...Will requires cause to be willed, therefore causal chains, necessarily the word "free" behind it must get out of the picture...
Rubbish! And I am sick of explaining this. Cause and effect does not conflict with free will, cause and effect does not imply determinism. Mathematical randomness conflicts with determinism but not with cause and effect, intentional randomness conflicts with free will. This is not difficult to get, think about it!

So you say, so you say...but is just a plain mockery on the pure meaning of words ! I take the Word CAUSE quite seriously wile you just play around it...but hey, you are free to think whatever feels necessary to you...knock yourself out with it !

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...Actually you have to explain emptiness in the world wile I don´t...do your best for the Holy Grail sir Knight of nothingness and undetectability ! common... (Full is Full) get serious !

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The problem seams to be that some of you feel and think that already have explain allot on this, but the true is that you not even have start to scratch it on the surface...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...Actually you have to explain emptiness in the world wile I don´t...

Actually, I dont have to deal with any of this crap anymore, because I have free will. You are an example of a neurotic causal completist, your psychology is irrational and worse than the religious. I can forgive the religious, because they make a bet, accept a certain amount of bullshit, for the pay off of avoiding death. Atheists have no excuse for accepting bullshit. You fail to take responsibility.

1 Reply

@ughaibu,

ughaibu wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...Actually you have to explain emptiness in the world wile I don´t...

Actually, I dont have to deal with any of this crap anymore, because I have free will. You are an example of a neurotic causal completist, your psychology is irrational and worse than the religious. I can forgive the religious, because they make a bet, accept a certain amount of bullshit, for the pay off of avoiding death. Atheists have no excuse for accepting bullshit. You fail to take responsibility.

This is a perfect example on how pretensions human beings can be...the culture of TAKING RESPONSIBILITY and being in control !!! imagine that... Good Lord ! Drunk

...amazes me and dazes me that you really think my reasoning comes out of sheer irrationality...ironic !

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...Beware World, working middle class wisdom has arrived !...

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Good and Bad, Right and Wrong, Responsible or not responsible, Guilty or Innocent...you definitely still are impregnated with Christian biased cultural background...that much I can tell you !

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...Beware World, working middle class wisdom has arrived !...

. . . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdVVLbe1rfY&feature=related . . . !

1 Reply

@ughaibu,

ughaibu wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
...Beware World, working middle class wisdom has arrived !...
. . . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdVVLbe1rfY&feature=related . . . !

Grab a beer Joe !... Mr. Green

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

ughaibu wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
...Beware World, working middle class wisdom has arrived !...
. . . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdVVLbe1rfY&feature=related . . . !

Grab a beer Joe !...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdDNCvUQtLs

1 Reply

@ughaibu,

ughaibu wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

ughaibu wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
...Beware World, working middle class wisdom has arrived !...
. . . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdVVLbe1rfY&feature=related . . . !

Grab a beer Joe !...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdDNCvUQtLs

Freedom Riders away !!! ( I am enjoying this, you seam to know allot on this folk...and nice music to ! ) Cheers ! Cool

...12 to 14 Hours a day SHEEP forming is the way to go ! Long live the American pragmatism !

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

ughaibu wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

ughaibu wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
...Beware World, working middle class wisdom has arrived !...
. . . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdVVLbe1rfY&feature=related . . . !

Grab a beer Joe !...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdDNCvUQtLs

Freedom Riders away !!! ( I am enjoying this, you seam to know allot on this folk...and nice music to ! ) Cheers !

...12 to 14 Hours a day SHEEP forming is the way to go ! Long live the American pragmatism !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq6niWztcP4&feature=related

0 Replies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsjNNPVAQYw

let´s ad some cheese music to your home made pizza !...

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsjNNPVAQYw

let´s ad some cheese music to your home made pizza !...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WZZjXgJ4W8

1 Reply

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