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The Universe and questions regarding it.

 
 
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 06:09 pm
I have had several questions that I always asked myself from the first time I opened a physics/philosophy textbook when I was 12. Can somebody please help me in clarifying my confusion?

If the universe is constantly expanding at the speed of light, then wouldn't that mean everything within the universe is also expanding too, disregarding noticeably or not?

If the universe is infinitely large, then why is it expanding if it is already infinite?

Which brings me to my next question: can infinity and infinite energy/mass/matter etc. exist in this world? To have a value we need a comparison of at least two quantities or qualities. These comparisons serve as standards. Can infinity really exist if there will always be something greater than infinity, or if infinity is existence in a sense, will infinity always be infinite?

Also, if matter cannot be created or destroyed, and if the BBT were to serve as a validated explanation for this principle, how can our universe "force" itself into nothingness with its rate of expansion? Think of our universe as an egg. Think of a basket with a hole in it as the nothingness of space. If eggs are constantly dropped and never filling the basket, will the universe infinitely exist?

Something that is destroyed is created, something that is created is destroyed, right? If I break a stick in half, and I keep on breaking it until there is nothing left of that stick, would that mean that stick has been destroyed? Or, on a smaller scale, do the atoms that gave that stick its composition still continue to exist, albeit just floating around somewhere in the ethos?

Also, my last question, which should be the most interesting of all. Are ideas infinite, or at least until humans die? Also, were all ideas that once "existed" always conceived into existence, or do ideas contain existence if we give it existence? It's pretty obvious that ideas are only ideas if they do not exist in a purely physical state of speaking. Soooo...If I think of purple humans that measure 30 feet tall, how can I be for sure that this idea has not been harbored into existence by someone else's mind? Existence and realism puzzles me, I don't get it.
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Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 07:23 pm
@Diogenes phil,
Whao... Who said anything is expanding at the speed of light...The only thing that moves at the speed of light is light.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 08:42 pm
@Diogenes phil,
Strictly speaking, the first of your questions belong to physical cosmology, not philosophy. This does not mean they are not good questions - they are very good questions. But they are also very big questions. I suggest looking up some titles by Brian Greene and Paul Davies, both of whom write excellent books on these topics for a non-specialist audience.

As regards the nature of ideas, that it is also another very large question. I have only bits and pieces of an answer. One is to try and get a handle on what Plato meant by 'Ideas' and 'Forms'. This is not necessarily an easy thing to do, but then, these are big questions. But think about this. Mathematical ideas in particular are not the product of individual minds, in that they are the same for all minds. Yet they don't 'exist' anywhere in the physical universe. Those who believe that number is real in this sense, are known as mathematical realists. It is still quite a popular outlook, especially amongst mathematicians (as you can imagine).

Now the difference between mathematical ideas and your imaginary purple man is that, as I noted, maths is the same for everyone. This does not mean that everyone can understand all the ideas in it, mind you. But also it is not just the product of the individual mind. It is something basic to the fabric of reality.

Check on the Amazon blurb on the Mathematical Mystery Tour.
Diogenes phil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 09:52 pm
@Fido,
Fido;140412 wrote:
Whao... Who said anything is expanding at the speed of light...The only thing that moves at the speed of light is light.


Of course anything that is anything is itself. Light can't be darkness, cold can't be heat, etc. But speed is a general term. You could say everything in this universe has a speed. And the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light, not AT the speed of light, or else nothing would be accomplished - that's what I meant. Space is always expanding faster than light. That's what most of the Big Bang theory is based on.

Time dilation allows light to move slower depending on space relative to its motion... If I'm correct, I think.

jeeprs wrote:
Strictly speaking, the first of your questions belong to physical cosmology, not philosophy. This does not mean they are not good questions - they are very good questions. But they are also very big questions. I suggest looking up some titles by Brian Greene and Paul Davies, both of whom write excellent books on these topics for a non-specialist audience.

As regards the nature of ideas, that it is also another very large question. I have only bits and pieces of an answer. One is to try and get a handle on what Plato meant by 'Ideas' and 'Forms'. This is not necessarily an easy thing to do, but then, these are big questions. But think about this. Mathematical ideas in particular are not the product of individual minds, in that they are the same for all minds. Yet they don't 'exist' anywhere in the physical universe. Those who believe that number is real in this sense, are known as mathematical realists. It is still quite a popular outlook, especially amongst mathematicians (as you can imagine).

Now the difference between mathematical ideas and your imaginary purple man is that, as I noted, maths is the same for everyone. This does not mean that everyone can understand all the ideas in it, mind you. But also it is not just the product of the individual mind. It is something basic to the fabric of reality.


NVM, misread.

Yes, I must agree with you when you say that math is not a physical object, yet it is used to define almost everything. But, would you agree when I say that humans invented numerical ordering and mathematical concepts in general, or would the embodiment of math have always existed, never to have been taken advantage of until the descent of humanity? Basically, discovery or creation?

You could say that math is an idea too. In fact, everything must have been an idea at some point. As for my vague questions, I think I should have placed those within the Metaphysics section
0 Replies
 
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 09:55 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;140421 wrote:
maths is the same for everyone. [. . . . ] it is not just the product of the individual mind. It is something basic to the fabric of reality.
It seems to me that mathematical structures and techniques are products of individual minds, Cantor being an outstanding example. And maths seems to be a convenient way of capturing how humans think about some questions concerning reality, rather than an independent feature of that reality.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 10:09 pm
@ughaibu,
Diogenes;140428 wrote:
animals do not possess the same ability to learn the basic concepts of arithmetic


Quite. There are many studies on what they can and can't learn. I think I am on safe ground to say that their conceptual ability is either non-existent or very basic. Crows and monkeys, anecdotally, can distinguish between a group of three and a group of four, but not much further. Call me anthropocentric if you like, but H Sapiens has abilities that no other creature comes close to. (Many people seem very annoyed whenever I say this.)

ughaibu;140430 wrote:
It seems to me that mathematical structures and techniques are products of individual minds.


Then why are they the same for everyone? And why do different people have different abilities to grasp them? You might provide a proof to me, which until now I had never understood it. When I do understand it, this is something I now see. I could not see it before, now I can see it. There is no way it is a creation of my mind. I regard number as a non-empirical attribute of reality.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 10:26 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;140436 wrote:
Then why are they the same for everyone?
They aren't. Different mathematicians have differing views on the validity of various methods, for example, constructivists dont accept existence proofs.
jeeprs;140436 wrote:
why do different people have different abilities to grasp them?
The same question could be asked about why some person is attractive to some people but other people cant grasp the attraction, this isn't special to maths.
jeeprs;140436 wrote:
When I do understand it, this is something I now see. I could not see it before, now I can see it. There is no way it is a creation of my mind.
If an elaborate fantasy, with no relation to reality, is explained to you, sufficiently well, you'll understand it. Understanding something doesn't carry any implication that that thing has a mind independent existence.
jeeprs;140436 wrote:
I regard number as a non-empirical attribute of reality.
I'm not sure what you mean, but how do you explain mathematical pathologies, for example, the Bannach-Tarski paradox?
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 10:36 pm
@ughaibu,
4 does not equal 3 for anyone, regardless of their opinion. Same with euclid's proofs. When we send spaceships out to the far reaches of the solar system, they have mathematical symbols on them. This is because it is assumed 'the aliens' though their minds might be inconceivably different to ours, will recognise Pi when they see it.


ughaibu;140444 wrote:
how do you explain mathematical pathologies, for example, the Bannach-Tarski paradox?


I have no explanation, other than to say that when I opened the fridge door this morning, it was growing all over the old meat sauce that I left there a week ago. It's gone now.:bigsmile:
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 10:42 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;140447 wrote:
4 does not equal 3 for anyone, regardless of their opinion. Same with euclid's proofs.
Mathematical systems are formal systems, that's all, whether four equals three or Euclidean proofs are valid depends on how the system is defined.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 10:48 pm
@Diogenes phil,
Curious, then, that maths can be used to lob shells onto targets, or rockets to the moon, with pinpoint precision, isn't it? So in the case of maths, the way it is defined is not arbitrary, it is? It is not like chess, or even like a language, for that matter. It corresponds to something objective, but it is not objective in the usual sense.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 11:00 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;140452 wrote:
Curious, then, that maths can be used to lob shells onto targets, or rockets to the moon, with pinpoint precision, isn't it?
"Pinpoint precision" is an exaggeration and this is Newtonian mechanics, for which maths isn't a requirement, it's a convenience.
jeeprs;140452 wrote:
So in the case of maths, the way it is defined is not arbitrary, it is?
Your inference is faulty, that maths can be useful carries no stronger implications than that language is useful. And maths is arbitrary, if maths were some species of feature of reality, how could Lagrange and Hamilton be equivalent, but mathematically distinct, descriptions?
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 11:19 pm
@Diogenes phil,
I am not able to understand your objections, I am sorry.

---------- Post added 03-17-2010 at 04:37 PM ----------

Here is a wiki quote about mathematical realism:

Quote:

Mathematical realism, like realism in general, holds that mathematical entities exist independently of the human mind. Thus humans do not invent mathematics, but rather discover it, and any other intelligent beings in the universe would presumably do the same. In this point of view, there is really one sort of mathematics that can be discovered: Triangles, for example, are real entities, not the creations of the human mind.

Many working mathematicians have been mathematical realists; they see themselves as discoverers of naturally occurring objects. Examples include Paul Erdős and continuum hypothesis
0 Replies
 
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 01:03 am
@Diogenes phil,
I am one of those people whom finds it difficult to think in mathematical terms, I tend towards a more visual approach, if that is the right description. I have nothing like the technical knowledge of Ughaibu, but if I can see something, in my mind or through my eyes I don't have any difficulty figuring out how it works and what it's effects may be, my only constraint seems to be time and energy. I do however recognise mathematics as a constant,but it is difficult to separate from it's symbols. The language of math does not seem so universal to me but then again I'm an math idiot.
Aren't we still having trouble decyphering heiroglyphics? What guarantee is there that some other life form will know what Pi means, maybe they don't even use symbols

I do realise though, that the moment they find some of our stuff floating around out there they are gonna think. Hey these creatures know some math.

Unless they're dogs then they'll just piss on it. :bigsmile:
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 01:52 am
@wayne,
wayne;140467 wrote:
What guarantee is there that some other life form will know what Pi means?


The assumption is, if they're smart enough to find it, they will know what it means, because it is a numerical constant. (And don't worry, I too am dreadful at maths.)
0 Replies
 
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 02:15 am
@Diogenes phil,
I always kinda liked the old star trek episode where Voyager became Vger
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 02:57 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;140453 wrote:
And maths is arbitrary, if maths were some species of feature of reality, how could Lagrange and Hamilton be equivalent, but mathematically distinct, descriptions?


How can maths be 'arbitrary'? Certainly the symbols that denote number are arbitrary. But there is no way that you can demonstrate that number itself is anything other than true a priori. I would like to see you try, without reference to specialised jargon which you are using as a smokescreen for your inability to deal with a simple argument in plain English.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 03:14 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;140493 wrote:
How can maths be 'arbitrary'?
Exactly the same things can be described using quite different mathematics, and this includes number theory.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 03:43 am
@Diogenes phil,
When you say 'thing', what do you mean?
0 Replies
 
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 07:35 am
@Diogenes phil,
Diogenes;140401 wrote:
I have had several questions that I always asked myself from the first time I opened a physics/philosophy textbook when I was 12. Can somebody please help me in clarifying my confusion?

If the universe is constantly expanding at the speed of light, then wouldn't that mean everything within the universe is also expanding too, disregarding noticeably or not?

I'm sure from your reading, you noticed how the idea of expansion arose: it's an explanation for the red-shift. The doppler effect gives us such a handy scenario to explain the shift, that it's entered "common knowledge" that the universe is expanding.. which is to say that all the stars and galaxies we see are getting farther apart from each other.. as objects in an explosion do.

It doesn't follow that all the molecules in your body, for instance, are also getting further away from each other. Again, "common knowledge" is that gravity is a property of anything with mass. Whether gravity is an attracting force (as Newton imagined), an alteration of space surrounding an object (as Einstein imagined ), the effect of some sort of communication between objects (as a Quantum theorist might imagine), or some other scenario... it remains: gravity is the name for the idea that things are brought together and held in close association.

Diogenes;140401 wrote:
If the universe is infinitely large, then why is it expanding if it is already infinite?

Which brings me to my next question: can infinity and infinite energy/mass/matter etc. exist in this world? To have a value we need a comparison of at least two quantities or qualities. These comparisons serve as standards. Can infinity really exist if there will always be something greater than infinity, or if infinity is existence in a sense, will infinity always be infinite?

Also, if matter cannot be created or destroyed, and if the BBT were to serve as a validated explanation for this principle, how can our universe "force" itself into nothingness with its rate of expansion? Think of our universe as an egg. Think of a basket with a hole in it as the nothingness of space. If eggs are constantly dropped and never filling the basket, will the universe infinitely exist?
You noticed that infinity is outside what we can measure or observe. There are folks teaching physics at the university level who operate without this realization, so you're pretty insightful. We don't know how well our common conceptions of space and time correspond with that which is beyond our immediate experience. The birth and ultimate nature of our home is beyond our immediate experience (or so we imagine). We theroize. The theories change over time, which is to say: we change.


Diogenes;140401 wrote:
Something that is destroyed is created, something that is created is destroyed, right? If I break a stick in half, and I keep on breaking it until there is nothing left of that stick, would that mean that stick has been destroyed? Or, on a smaller scale, do the atoms that gave that stick its composition still continue to exist, albeit just floating around somewhere in the ethos?
This question is the root of western philosophy. A good book: "The Wisdom of the West" by Bertrand Russell. Russell was a good teacher.... clear and funny.
0 Replies
 
Junior phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 09:00 pm
@Diogenes phil,
I haven't read everyone's reply, but this is my thoughts on what you wrote Diogenes.

Diogenes;140401 wrote:
If the universe is constantly expanding at the speed of light, then wouldn't that mean everything within the universe is also expanding too, disregarding noticeably or not?


We only know of the observable universe. From observation everything is moving away from each other.

Diogenes;140401 wrote:
If the universe is infinitely large, then why is it expanding if it is already infinite?


No one knows the answer to this. I wouldn't say the universe is infinite in size, but likely impossible for us to understand at our current stage in evolution.

Diogenes;140401 wrote:
Which brings me to my next question: can infinity and infinite energy/mass/matter etc. exist in this world? To have a value we need a comparison of at least two quantities or qualities. These comparisons serve as standards. Can infinity really exist if there will always be something greater than infinity, or if infinity is existence in a sense, will infinity always be infinite?


With today's knowledge it is understood that there is no such thing. I haven't seen anything (credible) suggesting otherwise.

EDIT: Infinity is not a number, only an idea or concept. More a symbol than anything else.

Diogenes;140401 wrote:
Also, if matter cannot be created or destroyed, and if the BBT were to serve as a validated explanation for this principle, how can our universe "force" itself into nothingness with its rate of expansion? Think of our universe as an egg. Think of a basket with a hole in it as the nothingness of space. If eggs are constantly dropped and never filling the basket, will the universe infinitely exist?


Again, these questions come after the question of our universe's finite or infinite existence. Black holes are not as they sound, just dense matter which has such a gravitational pull that not even a photon of light can escape.

Diogenes;140401 wrote:
Something that is destroyed is created, something that is created is destroyed, right? If I break a stick in half, and I keep on breaking it until there is nothing left of that stick, would that mean that stick has been destroyed? Or, on a smaller scale, do the atoms that gave that stick its composition still continue to exist, albeit just floating around somewhere in the ethos?


If you break the stick, you are not removing matter from the universe; you aren't even changing wood into something else. If you break this stick up over a container, you will see just as much wood (either in a form of small pieces of wood or dust) as when you started. If you could not see all the pieces a microscope might come in handy.

Diogenes;140401 wrote:
Also, my last question, which should be the most interesting of all. Are ideas infinite, or at least until humans die? Also, were all ideas that once "existed" always conceived into existence, or do ideas contain existence if we give it existence? It's pretty obvious that ideas are only ideas if they do not exist in a purely physical state of speaking. Soooo...If I think of purple humans that measure 30 feet tall, how can I be for sure that this idea has not been harbored into existence by someone else's mind? Existence and realism puzzles me, I don't get it.


It's most likely that *everything* ends.

You are asking the right questions. Soon your questions will change, and they will be the right questions too. The only wrong is not to question, wonder, learn, and grow.

Read books.
0 Replies
 
 

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