0
   

why I'm a atheist

 
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 05:27 am
@north,
"Our concepts appear to match the facts, according to Kant, because both facts and concepts have a common origin - the human condition. Insofar as human nature is entwined with the appearances, human concepts will be successful in explaining those appearances. Because we can only explain those parts of the world which we ourselves bring to it, the nature of deep reality must remain forever inaccessible." Quantum Reality: Beyond the New Physics, Nick Bostrom, Page 3
0 Replies
 
Twirlip
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 06:34 am
@ughaibu,
I think we have become a little sidetracked. Let us backtrack.

(I apologise in advance for the sidetracks which I myself am about to introduce.)

jeeprs;171481 wrote:
Seems to me that when you start arguing against the extraordinary efficacy of mathematics on the grounds that it is 'simply the working of the hominid brain' then science is getting dangerously near to biting the hand that created it.....


ughaibu;171570 wrote:
There is no extraordinary efficacy of mathematics, mathematics is pretty much useless in almost all fields, except for calculating measurements. The problem of the so called unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics is one of selection bias.


jeeprs;171592 wrote:
Oh yes. And how do you think the modern world would get along without it? I reckon we would be communicating by smoke signals. Computer science depends upon quantum theory, and quantum theory is only possible because of mathematical abstraction.


ughaibu;171598 wrote:
Okay, show me how mathematics is extraordinarily efficacious in any science other than physics and in any way other than calculation of measurements.


ughaibu;171601 wrote:
jeeprs;171592 wrote:
quantum theory is only possible because of mathematical abstraction.
Balaguer has demonstrated that this is not true.


In the paper referred to, Balaguer presents part of a nominalistic reinterpretation of a part of quantum mechanics, together with a plausibility argument for his contention that the reinterpretation can be completed, and extended to the whole of quantum mechanics. Let as accept that.

'Abstract mathematical entities' are then eliminated from quantum mechanics.

Let us further suppose that such allegedly fictional entities have been eliminated from science as a whole. (Such a nominalistic elimination is advocated in Hartry Field's book Science Without Numbers (1980), of which I used to own a copy, although I fear I have lost it, along with much of my library.)

This appears to bear only upon jeeprs's mention of "mathematical abstraction" (my emphasis), which seems to have set you off.

But even if it is granted that 'abstract mathematical entities' can be eliminated from science (in principle, and for the sake of argument, even in practice), all that has been achieved is to reveal the "unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics" to be reasonable after all!

That is a gain in intelligibility of the universe to humankind, not a loss.

Nor would even some future complete and compelling demonstration of the nominalistic eliminability of all 'abstract mathematical entities' from science (and perhaps also from mathematics itself) constitute an argument against mathematical abstraction, i.e. concept-formation. Balaguer's argument is 'abstract' in this sense (and not only that part of his argument which is hedged about with the caution that it has been cynically designed by him only to convince mathematical Platonists).

Mathematics survives its philosophical reconstructions (and even in the absence of any philosophical construction at all, like some maddeningly irrational God).

Intelligible or no (and I think there is a reasonable view that mathematics itself is unintelligible - but that is one of many, many tempting further sidetracks I have to refrain from pursuing!), and regardless of whether it does or does not require 'abstract mathematical entities' (I have read or skimmed, not only Field's book, but also Krantz, Suppes, Luce, and Tversky, Foundations of Measurement (1971), and, in one way going even further than Balaguer, I have a vast amount of sympathy with the nominalistic desire to eliminate abstract mathematical objects from the representation theorems found there - more sidetracks!), mathematics remains useful in rendering the universe intelligible to us (even if, in its present 'abstract' form, its models of the universe may themselves seem unintelligible, requiring perhaps a nominalistic or some other kind of reinterpretation).

That last paragraph was terribly badly written. (I have had to try so hard to resist chasing off down an apparently infinite number of sidetracks opened up by my reading of part of Balaguer's paper after an another almost sleepless night! It would take a book to explain.)

So let me have another go. (Better than trying to rewrite the foregoing.)

You and Balaguer are, of course, addressing real problems here. (Balaguer's paper is fascinating. Damn, I wish I was involved in the field!) But in your frustration with mathematics as it is (my own frustration with it would, as I said, fill a book), you go too far.

A nominalistically reinterpreted mathematics (supposing such to be attainable) would still be mathematics. And mathematics would then be, even if it is not now, rendering the universe intelligible.

Your frustration is with mathematics itself, in its present form (at some level, I share that frustration) - not with the universe.

Neither you nor Balaguer has shown that mathematics, as such (as opposed to a certain form of it, perhaps under the influence of Formalism or Platonism, or both) is "useless"; and you have not shown (and Balaguer has not even tried to show) that the universe is unintelligible.
qualia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 07:01 am
@imfreakinman,
Okay. I've rested and thought a little and will try again. This is mainly in answer to Prothero, Jeepres and Twirlip's questions back on page 2 & 3 & 4, but it might be useful for anyone trying to get a grip on what I am terribly trying to say.

Okay, if I go back to my introductory philosophy books, one type of definition of truth which often crops up is some kind of correspondence theory. That is, between understanding and the states of affairs, that some notion of truth relies upon the correctness of my claims about things. This perspective more often gives rise to a whole set of subject object-predicate claims.

If I now turn to my chapter on Kant, I am informed that he asked himself, 'How do things come to be present to us as objects of experience in the first place? (from which empirical truth and false claims can be derived)'

He argued, or so imagine, that there is more than likely a priori conditions in which objects come to be presented to us, a priori conditions located in the essential structure of our being (whether these are genetically derived I have no idea).

And I guess this is what he meant by transcendental truth. It is these structures (these 'truths' using Kantian terminology) which precede and makes possible any claim about objects of our experience.

Following on from Kant, phenomonologists such as Husserl and Heidegger, asked themselves, 'How do these objects of experience present themselves as something to us? Not just as mere objects of experience, but as objects with meaning, with intelligibility, as some-thing?'

From my understanding, Heidegger argued that all subject-object, predicated, propositional truths presuppose: a) the manifestation of entities as objects of consciousness (the Kantian thesis) and, b) that a) presupposes some context or background of meaning, of intelligibility in which these entities of experience come to be some-thing significant for us.

So, offering an example from Dreyfus. My study room is a world. It has res extensia things within it. My table, my books, my bookcases, pens, paper, computer, four walls, a ceiling, floor, bay windows, ashtrays, coffee cups, and so on.

I assume that I can point out these entities to you and together we can make some claims about them. Regardless of the level of our theoretical enquiry, we can make some kind of propositional truths or falsities about the things in my room.

But we can only do this on the background of these things being present to us as objects in the first place. There must be some kind of brain thing going on to experience these objects as objects of consciousness and experience from which we can then make our claims, rightly or wrongly, about them. This is the Kantian thesis alluded to above.

Now, Heidegger argues that these things are not just present to us as mere objects of consciousness to which we then ascribe our meanings after the fact of their existence, but are already some-thing for us, they are already at hand, they have a context, meaning, intelligibility. They just wouldn't be there in the first place unless there were other things in existence. For example, I may be able to describe my pen with x properties, but then I've missed what it is to be a pen. It wouldn't be a pen if there weren't paper, literacy skills, certain goals, practices, and a whole load of other factors in existence to make my pen intelligible.

The 'problem' with everyday philosophy, according to Heidegger, is that it is overtly prejudiced to mere propositional truths and overlooks the more fundamental condition in which many things, the totality of equipment and tools and gadgets, for example, can come to be some-thing with significance in the first place.

Theoretical cognition overlooks the fact that an entity of experience, such as my pen, paper, computer, book, cannot necessarily be isolated and prior to or separable from other entities of experience from which we have isolated or dettached it.

We cannot construct a meaningful world only on the bases of subject-predicate propositions. Indeed, we are, before all our propositional truths, already in the world, coping, using, rejecting, concerning, getting about. We can certainly do mental and theoretical stuff, but only later, before that, we are already involved in a physical, practical, intelligible grasping or understanding of our world.

In this holistic sense of intelligibility, then, little, if anything, could be comprehended and understood if merely presented as some isolated entity without already presupposing ourselves in the world, related and relating to our activities, our up bringing, codes, systems, practices, society, culture, interpretation, and values, all of which cannot be broken into independent, self-sufficient properties.

That this kind of intelligibility is then understood as determined by any singular being, such as a God, misunderstands, for me, what human intelligibility is all about. We are always-already in the hermanautic circle, the circle of discourse, society, culture and interpretation. We, and everything we deal with, is already interpreted by our culture, upbringing, society and ourselves and we can only do or think anything from inside this, we cannot step out. Even if there were a god, what could we possibly say or know about it other than being a mere relfection of our own, all too human hermanautic interpretation of intelligibility?

Does any of this make sense? The question, then, of atheism or theism, I think chronically misunderstands what we are as human beings. We can never step out from ourselves, so much so that all talk about the existence of or not of god, generally comes across as mere talk for talk, confessions, prejudices or assertions of deep desires of the heart.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 07:03 am
@Twirlip,
Twirlip;171685 wrote:
Neither you nor Balaguer has shown that mathematics, as such (as opposed to a certain form of it, perhaps under the influence of Formalism or Platonism, or both) is "useless"; and you have not shown (and Balaguer has not even tried to show) that the universe is unintelligible.
My original post addressed to Jeeprs had two parts, first a rejection of the contention that the universe is intelligible, the ambiguities of this simple way of stating it have been explicated in subsequent posts. My second contention was that mathematics isn't extraordinarily efficacious, this too has been further explicated. The only connection drawn between these two claims was the algorithmic intractability of certain phenomena. This assumes that intelligibility is the result of verifiable predictions, and thus that the relevant phenomena can not be understood by scientists using mathematical models. Otherwise, I'm not stating any frustration with mathematics, because I dont expect it to be enlightening for most questions about phenomenal reality, and I certainly dont think that it's useless.
Twirlip
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 07:38 am
@qualia,
qualia;171692 wrote:
Does any of this make sense?

It is all very lucid and helpful.

However, I think it totally misses: (1a) the point about God; and (2a) the point about the scientific intelligibility of the universe.

What it does address, and probably quite beautifully (but after two nearly sleepless nights, I am on my last legs, and in no condition to give your article the detailed response it deserves), is: (1b) an anthropomorphic misconception of God, ironically seen as external to ourselves, the more strongly inasmuch as it is only a projection of ourselves; and (2b) a scientistic misrepresentation of the world in which we as human beings actually live, move and have our being.

I hope that when I am in a fit condition I may be able to write something about (1a), (2a), (1b), (2b), and how I tie them together, both with each other and with what you are saying.

For the moment, all I can say is that I think that, although science both as a social institution and as a personal commitment does belong in this world of human praxis which you and Heidegger describe (and which science itself does not describe, yet presumes to, making exactly the mistakes which you and Heidegger identify), what science is about bypasses all that, and gives us an objective, more than merely human, but always incomplete understanding of the world.

(One radical way in which its understanding is incomplete is the one you identify. Another might be that our human minds just can't grasp very much about this universe at all, not even in the scientific mode which I believe is possible for us, but which you do not seem to believe is possible.)

Also, I think it is through our connection with God that science is possible; so it's not surprising that when you miss one point you miss the other.

But right now I must collapse into bed. It is quite possible that this entire post is gibberish.

---------- Post added 06-01-2010 at 02:44 PM ----------

ughaibu;171693 wrote:
The only connection drawn between these two claims was the algorithmic intractability of certain phenomena. This assumes that intelligibility is the result of verifiable predictions, and thus that the relevant phenomena can not be understood by scientists using mathematical models.

I don't see that the existence of chaotic phenomena renders the universe entirely unintelligible. Indeed, the phenomenon of chaos is something we have rendered intelligible to some extent. I see no reason to identify intelligibility with the ability to make deterministic Laplacean predictions.
ughaibu;171693 wrote:
Otherwise, I'm not stating any frustration with mathematics, because I dont expect it to be enlightening for most questions about phenomenal reality, and I certainly dont think that it's useless.

But you said, and I quote, "mathematics is pretty much useless in almost all fields".
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 05:38 pm
@north,
Remember in what follows we are talking about 'God'. I was only going to write a sentence or two but it blew out a bit.....

@Twirlip, many thanks - my appreciation of the outlines of the ancient dispute between nominalism and (scholastic) realism is only sketchy but I must declare my allegiance to realism, at least as far as I understand it (which is not very far). I do wonder if the whole impulse behind nominalism is motivated by the fact that realism cannot help but appear metaphysical, so nominalism is driven by the desire for 'anything but that'. (Question: was nominalism in effect the dis-amalgamation of Platonism and Greek philosophy generally, from the Bible?)

@Qualia, very lucid and extremely succinct. I am glad what you have provided generally accords with my own sketchy grasp of it.

qualia;171692 wrote:
That this kind of intelligibility is then understood as determined by any singular being, such as a God, misunderstands, for me, what human intelligibility is all about.


I too do not believe in or accept a God, or the existence of a God. But we need to tread carefully here. First, the notion of logos does not necessarily imply 'a lawgiver' in the sense of 'the cosmic architect' who makes the rules that everything obeys or who creates the law in the way that a governor creates legislation. In fact at various stages in history, that conception of deity was identified as 'the demiurge' and distinguished from 'The One' who is 'the ground of being' and who is the 'real' God (for example in gnosticism and I think also in Plato.) It has only been in the modern era that scholars began to use the method of 'abductive inference' (reasoning from effect to cause) to 'prove' that the existence of laws imply the existence of a law-giver. This has now become very much part of our intellectual landscape, indeed it informs the whole debate we are having now and is characteristic of the Intelligent Design movement. But this too can and should be de-constructed.

Recall that both Plato and Plotinus never really talked about God, as such. They spoke of 'The One' which, among other things, was out-of-scope for intellectual cognition, or literally beyond thought. Now obviously this goes off into deep waters indeed, and probably cannot be explored here, but is just mentioned to bring some perspective to bear on the enormity of the subject at hand. I think there is a tendency for many to have a completely trivialized understanding of 'God' which bears no relationship whatever to the reality as it was understood by traditional philosophy.

qualia;171692 wrote:
We can never step out from ourselves, so much so that all talk about the existence of or not of god, generally comes across as mere talk for talk, confessions, prejudices or assertions of deep desires of the heart.


There is a Buddhist word for this, which is prapanca, meaning 'conceptual proliferation' "in the sense of the multiplication of erroneous concepts, ideas, and ideologies which obscure the true nature of reality. In terms of Yogācāra thought, it is a general term for the false dualistic concepts (vikalpa) which involve the erroneous division into perceiving subject and perceived objects." Source

Note the last phrase.:whistling:

I think the only theologian who comes close to grappling with the real depths of the question is Tillich. I have a fragmentary piece of text here, I can't provide a source, but it does make the point:

Quote:
Religion is direction or movement toward the ultimate or the unconditional. And God rightly defined might be called the Unconditional. God, in the true sense, is indefinable. Since the Unconditional precedes our minds and precedes all created things, God cannot be confined by the mind or by words. Tillich sees God as Being-Itself, or the "Ground of all Being." For this reason there cannot be "a" God. There cannot even be a "highest God," for even that concept is limiting. We cannot make an object out of God. And the moment we say he is the highest God or anything else, we have made him an object. Thus, beyond the God of the Christian or the God of the Jews, there is the "God beyond God." This God cannot be said to exist or not to exist in the sense that we "exist". Either statement is limiting. We cannot make a thing out of God, no matter how holy this thing may be, because there still remains something behind the holy thing which is its ground or basis, the "ground of being."


Now as it happens many conventional theologians reject Tillich because he is too oriental, a crypto-Buddhist, or whatever. But I think he is right on the money.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 07:45 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;171693 wrote:
I'm not stating any frustration with mathematics, because I dont expect it to be enlightening for most questions about phenomenal reality, and I certainly dont think that it's useless.


I think this is very much a case of seeing what you do (or don't) want to see. For one who is pre-disposed to the idea of the 'divine intelligence' - and such a pre-disposition might be much more a matter of temperament than intellectual conviction! - then s/he will tend to interpret the evidence in accordance with that view. Now, of course, you can say this is not an objective approach, and that is probably true, but I don't know if objectivity is really possible in these matters.

To put it another way, if you are one who is inclined to see 'a meaning behind it all' then naturally you will see patterns in everything that tend to confirm your suspicions, and if you have that attitude, then mathematical or platonic realism seems a very powerful argument. And conversely, if you are of the view that life emerges fortuitously from chaos, then you are likely to side with the nominalist approach. So I guess you are right in saying this a 'selection bias'. But from all my discussions here on the Forum, I am learning, or confirming, that I instinctively do have a belief in, if not God, some higher intelligence (which actually is the default view of 95% of Americans, I read somewhere). All I can say is that I was born with that understanding, and didn't realise till I was about 7 or 8 years old that there were people who don't. So I am owning up to something here, I guess you could call it a 'bias', but one I am no more capable of changing than my personality....
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 09:17 pm
@Twirlip,
Twirlip;171704 wrote:
I don't see that the existence of chaotic phenomena renders the universe entirely unintelligible.
I'm not talking about chaotic phenomena, I specified "the behaviour of micro particles, chemotactic processes, human actions", and I didn't say "entirely unintelligible", I said "fundamentally unintelligible".
Twirlip;171704 wrote:
But you said, and I quote, "mathematics is pretty much useless in almost all fields".
The full quote is "mathematics is pretty much useless in almost all fields, except for calculating measurements", if you think that this is incorrect, convince me. If you're pointing out how you came to misinterpret me, fine, I apologise for lack of clarity.
Twirlip
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 09:27 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;171935 wrote:
If you're pointing out how you came to misinterpret me, fine, I apologise for lack of clarity.

Apology accepted. Smile
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 11:11 pm
@jeeprs,
[QUOTE=jeeprs;171882]I think this is very much a case of seeing what you do (or don't) want to see. For one who is pre-disposed to the idea of the 'divine intelligence' - and such a pre-disposition might be much more a matter of temperament than intellectual conviction! - then s/he will tend to interpret the evidence in accordance with that view. Now, of course, you can say this is not an objective approach, and that is probably true, but I don't know if objectivity is really possible in these matters.,,,,

To put it another way, if you are one who is inclined to see 'a meaning behind it all' then naturally you will see patterns in everything that tend to confirm your suspicions, and if you have that attitude, then mathematical or platonic realism seems a very powerful argument. And conversely, if you are of the view that life emerges fortuitously from chaos, then you are likely to side with the nominalist approach.....[/QUOTE] This is very much the case. It is very much a choice about which lens through which to view the world.
My typical position though is that neither position nominalist or realist is the objective or the scientific or the rational position.
They are both relatively profound metaphysical assumptions and philosophical speculations about a reality which is beyond the realm of sense experience and empirical data.
So I tend to get aggravated at the suggestion that the materialist and empiricist position is objective and rational and the theist rationalist position is silly.



0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 11:37 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;171598 wrote:
Okay, show me how mathematics is extraordinarily efficacious in any science other than physics and in any way other than calculation of measurements.


I will have another go at answering this.

There was a 1960 article by Eugene Wigner called The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences. It starts with:

Quote:
THERE IS A story about two friends, who were classmates in high school, talking about their jobs. One of them became a statistician and was working on population trends. He showed a reprint to his former classmate. The reprint started, as usual, with the Gaussian distribution and the statistician explained to his former classmate the meaning of the symbols for the actual population, for the average population, and so on. His classmate was a bit incredulous and was not quite sure whether the statistician was pulling his leg. "How can you know that?" was his query. "And what is this symbol here?" "Oh," said the statistician, "this is pi." "What is that?" "The ratio of the circumference of the circle to its diameter." "Well, now you are pushing your joke too far," said the classmate, "surely the population has nothing to do with the circumference of the circle."


The point of this story is that this is one of many instances where mathematical relationships seem to have applicability well beyond the context within which they are discovered. There are thousands of examples of this efficacy in statistics, medicine, epidemiology, space travel, electronics, manufacturing....the list is practically endless. None of what we regard as 'high technology' could even exist without 'the calculation of measurements'. The modern world as we know it, would not exist without it.

The rest of Wigner's article considers the amazing success of science based on mathematical reasoning and indeed Wigner won the 1963 Nobel in physics for for his contributions to the theory of the atomic nucleus and the elementary particles, particularly through the discovery and application of fundamental symmetry principles.

Now these 'fundemental symetry principles' are, as I understand, often driven by mathematical formalism and in fact were discovered in the first place because they seemed somehow mathematically likely or elegant. So it is somehow not surprising to learn that
Quote:
there exists a realm of physics for which mathematical assertions of simple symmetries in real objects cease to be approximations. That is the domain of quantum physics, which for the most part is the physics of very small, very simple objects such as electrons, protons, light, and atoms.

Unlike everyday objects, objects such as electrons have very limited numbers of configurations, called states, in which they can exist. This means that when symmetry operations such as exchanging the positions of components are applied to them, the resulting new configurations often cannot be distinguished from the originals no matter how diligent an observer is. Consequently, for sufficiently small and simple objects the generic mathematical symmetry assertion F(x) = x ceases to be approximate, and instead becomes an experimentally precise and accurate description of the situation in the real world.


There are many other cases where properties which appeared to be nothing other than the attributes of numerical relationships were actually found to be predictive of various facets of natural phenomena, often in cases where nobody would have foreseen the possibility of a relationship. And a very significant proportion of America's gross manufacturing income is based on the amazing accuracy of quantum mechanics - even if nobody knows how it really works.

Wigner's article ends with
Quote:
The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve. We should be grateful for it and hope that it will remain valid in future research and that it will extend, for better or for worse, to our pleasure, even though perhaps also to our bafflement, to wide branches of learning.
In fact I note the word 'miracle' appears a dozen times in the brief article. Which is, maybe, why so many people don't like it.:bigsmile:
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 12:38 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;171973 wrote:
There are thousands of examples of this efficacy in statistics, medicine, epidemiology, space travel, electronics, manufacturing....the list is practically endless. None of what we regard as 'high technology' could even exist without 'the calculation of measurements'. The modern world as we know it, would not exist without it.
What is extraordinary about the fact that with systems for calculating measurements, one can calculate measurements?
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 12:38 am
@north,
Quote:

there exists a realm of physics for which mathematical assertions of simple symmetries in real objects cease to be approximations. That is the domain of quantum physics, which for the most part is the physics of very small, very simple objects such as electrons, protons, light, and atoms.

Unlike everyday objects, objects such as electrons have very limited numbers of configurations, called states, in which they can exist. This means that when symmetry operations such as exchanging the positions of components are applied to them, the resulting new configurations often cannot be distinguished from the originals no matter how diligent an observer is. Consequently, for sufficiently small and simple objects the generic mathematical symmetry assertion F(x) = x ceases to be approximate, and instead becomes an experimentally precise and accurate description of the situation in the real world.

This is indeed amazing.

Here is something I have no expertise to speak on, but ..
Quote:

In physics and cosmology, digital physics is a collection of theoretical perspectives that start by assuming that the universe is, at heart, describable by information, and is therefore computable. Given such assumptions, the universe can be conceived as either the output of some computer program or as being some sort of vast digital computation device (or, at least, mathematically isomorphic to such a device).

Digital physics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 12:54 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;171989 wrote:
What is extraordinary about the fact that with systems for calculating measurements, one can calculate measurements?


The task of the philosopher is to wonder at that which men think ordinary.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 01:17 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;172000 wrote:
The task of the philosopher is to wonder at that which men think ordinary.
But presumably not just that. In any case, Wigner talks only about physics, a reminder:
ughaibu;171598 wrote:
show me how mathematics is extraordinarily efficacious in any science other than physics and in any way other than calculation of measurements.
ughaibu;171626 wrote:
in support of the claim that there's an "extraordinary efficacy of mathematics", I want to see a demonstration that mathematics is extraordinarily efficacious in the majority of sciences and in ways other than calculation of measurement, because I dont see anything extraordinary about mathematics being used to accurately calculate measurements.
Notice that Wigner also mentions the restriction of results to probabilities and suggests that alternative theories can explain the same phenomena, though he says "it has to be admitted that we have no definite evidence that there is no such theory". In fact, Cartwright (I think) gives a case of thirteen equally adequate theories, and the equivalence of Hamilton and LaGrange is almost a cliche.
Here's an article by a physicist: http://repository.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2433/61528/1/1011-4.pdf His conclusion:
It is hard to conclude or propose something mathematically constructive. In this concluding section, however, I try to extract some lessons.
It seems that CAC and a natural axiomatic system of randomness are not compatible. This is more than we physicists can swallow. If we accept that the hierarchy of randomness has an upper bound (so that we have an almighty oracle set), then certainly we can avoid this 'unpleasant' conclusion. However, to avoid Almighty is a prerequisite of any serious science, so this boundedness by something or someone is unacceptable.
etc.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 01:57 am
@ughaibu,
The sentence which just flew off the page when I read it was this one...

ughaibu;172011 wrote:
However, to avoid Almighty is a prerequisite of any serious science, so this boundedness by something or someone is unacceptable. etc.


Thanks.

---------- Post added 06-02-2010 at 06:03 PM ----------

I am trying to read that article, once you get past all the equations - equations do to me what religious dogma does to others - there is actually some written English which I can kind of understand. I will come back later.
0 Replies
 
Twirlip
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 05:11 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;171989 wrote:
What is extraordinary about the fact that with systems for calculating measurements, one can calculate measurements?

How true. I am reminded of a slightly similar point made by the great philosopher Louis Jordan:
Quote:
Life is so peculiar
You get so wet in the rain
You get so warm in the sunshine
[...]
When I sit down to breakfast
There is nothing to eat but food
[...]
When I go out to dinner
There is nothing to wear but clothes
[...]
Whenever I feel sleepy
There is nothing to do but doze
When I get tired of sitting
There is nothing to do but walk
When I don't wanna listen
There is nothing to do but talk
Life is so peculiar
Don't let anybody fool ya.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 06:02 am
@north,
wish there was a button for 'rolling on floor with laughter....'
0 Replies
 
 

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