value among intellect?

@Emil,

Emil;120165 wrote:

Of course there is a such correlation. Just as there is a correlation between I.Q. and average payment later later in life etc. There is a correlation between grades and I.Q. And also, not surprising, between non-religiousness/atheism and I.Q. etc.

Intelligence & Religion

The problem is that some people take the correlation and run amok. They'll assume that X religious person is less intelligent simply because they are religious, for instance. And that, of course, is fallacious.

And it's just as fallacious to assume that just because a child gets bad grades, that the child will never be successful, or that the child is stupid.

In fact, I have actually seen a trend among intellectuals in my generation to not apply themselves in school. Some of the most intelligent people in my highschool class chose not to do their work because of some sort of twisted rebellion.

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@Hi My Name Is,

Hi! My Name Is:;120016 wrote:

Are you suggesting that only students who have A+'s make new discoveries? Judging a person's potential by a flawed school system that surely you must feel has it's problems too is a critical mistake. People do not only have to have the best grades in order to penetrate into the unknown. Think logically. Knowledge is a considerable advantage, but one must also possess determination, a dedication for what they do, and patience.

Another point: You are saying that making plunges into new society is done mostly by A+ students. Say for example that I do not object that A+ students discover the most things. Still, you are trying to fastforward our society's progress. As a visual help, I will use the analogy of Legos.

Everyone's used Legos before, right? Surely at least one time in your life, you stacked a bunch of Legos on top of each other to see how high you can make it before it topples over. That is what you are implying. It is truly more important to make our society the tallest, most glamorous pedestal among all of the other pillars if we are going to fall anyway, or is it more important to make our pillar the most sturdy and stable foundation of all the others, which will decay and crumble before ours?

Does anyone agree with me?

I don't quite get the analogy, but I agree that it is likely we will do better to get as many students up to their best level (and make many C students B students) than to try to make A students, A+ students. I don't think there is so much difference between A and A+ students as to maker it worth depriving C students of the chance to be B students. And I say this from the point of view of society, not individual students.

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;120181 wrote:

The problem is that some people take the correlation and run amok. They'll assume that X religious person is less intelligent simply because they are religious, for instance. And that, of course, is fallacious.

And it's just as fallacious to assume that just because a child gets bad grades, that the child will never be successful, or that the child is stupid.

Yes, yes. Stupid people aside.

Quote:

In fact, I have actually seen a trend among intellectuals in my generation to not apply themselves in school. Some of the most intelligent people in my highschool class chose not to do their work because of some sort of twisted rebellion.

It is common in Denmark (and probably the rest of Scandinavia too) to rebel against the teacher etc., and to see the school as a kind of enemy. This is because school is forced (by law) where in other countries children are happy to get the privilege to go to school.

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@cws910,

Emil wrote:

It is common in Denmark (and probably the rest of Scandinavia too) to rebel against the teacher etc., and to see the school as a kind of enemy. This is because school is forced (by law) where in other countries children are happy to get the privilege to go to school.

So, wouldn't it be a bit silly to judge students simply on their grade point average?

I'm reinforcing this because you said you agreed with the OP initially. What exactly did you agree with, then?

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;120191 wrote:

So, wouldn't it be a bit silly to judge students simply on their grade point average?

I'm reinforcing this because you said you agreed with the OP initially. What exactly did you agree with, then?

Sure, but sometimes general assessments are needed and grades are the only useful thing that I can think of. What alternatives are there? My grades in ground school were pretty bad. I dumped written danish. It's funny because at the next school level, gymnasium, I got A+/A (not sure what it corresponds to) in written danish. The change was especially one of attitude. At this time I had developed my liking for language and philosophy (CS filosofy).

That it is better to improve A students to A+, then to improve D students to C-. The idea being that A+ students will make considerable leaps in whatever field they work on and the improvement from D til C- will not matter much.

Also, I thought about this at the university level, not at ground school (danish: grundskole) which my post above was about.

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@cws910,

Of course it depends on how one defines success, but in poking around, I'm actually finding more studies that say there's either no correlation between good grades and success or a very confined one at best.

I'd like to reiterate what I'd said before: That good grades are really an indicator of "good grades" and not much more. The idea being, don't take it too seriously or read in what's not already there.

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@cws910,

Ok, so if we just made our smart students even more intellectual instead of spending more time on the more challenged students, there's going to be a rebellion.

1 Reply

@Hi My Name Is,

Hi! My Name Is:;122158 wrote:

Ok, so if we just made our smart students even more intellectual instead of spending more time on the more challenged students, there's going to be a rebellion.

Yeah, but it'll be stupid people leading the rebellion so no worries.

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@kennethamy,

kennethamy;120184 wrote:

I don't quite get the analogy, but I agree that it is likely we will do better to get as many students up to their best level (and make many C students B students) than to try to make A students, A+ students. I don't think there is so much difference between A and A+ students as to maker it worth depriving C students of the chance to be B students. And I say this from the point of view of society, not individual students.

Thank you for the input.

---------- Post added 01-25-2010 at 02:23 PM ----------

TickTockMan;122460 wrote:

Yeah, but it'll be stupid people leading the rebellion so no worries.

Stupid people still know how to impale with pitchforks.

1 Reply

@Hi My Name Is,

Hi! My Name Is:;122466 wrote:

Thank you for the input.

---------- Post added 01-25-2010 at 02:23 PM ----------

Stupid people still know how to impale with pitchforks.

Soldier: "Commander! There's an large group of stupid people charging us with pitchforks!"
Commander: "Excellent. This will be most entertaining. Apparently they couldn't read the signs that said DANGER! MINEFIELD and ran right past them."
(explosions are heard in the background)

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@TickTockMan,

Go for the D students, than have a great chance that A students also will pick up something, but if you exclusivly go for A students then D students most likely wouldn't pick anything up at all.

I think this is a very shortsighted philosopy, seen a danish TV program pulling up D students to A/B students, by individual teaching techniques.
Some had to say things out loud, some had to use bodily motorskills, others had to use hand touch ..etc.

TickTockMan;119230 wrote:

So where would you see yourself fitting in? The various spelling errors in your post not withstanding . . . .

Don't see what spellings has to do with the nature of the question, other than you being shortsighted of being contructive.

1 Reply

@cws910,

cws910;119199 wrote:

Which is more worthwhile: making D students C- students, or A students A+ students?

I vote A to A+, and I don't think it's cynical. You'll get more bang for your buck and it's presumably good for the species and the social group to invest in its cutting-edge.

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@HexHammer,

HexHammer;126802 wrote:

Don't see what spellings has to do with the nature of the question, other than you being shortsighted of being contructive.

I must have made the mistake of thinking that a person who posts something like:

cws910;119199 wrote:

wouldn't it be better to clear the field for those with the most potiental?

This is a cynical viewpoint, and I know it, but I think that while it is cynical and cruel to those who would be left behind, I think I would benifit society as a whole.

would at least have the foresight to check their own spelling.
My bad.

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@cws910,

I think the biggest predictor of personal achievement is the ability to day dream or visualize.
Richard Branson drop out of school, Einstein was seen as not very bright at school.
They both used there imagination as a way to create and reach there aims.

A students are just doing what they have bean trained to do and probably end up doing jobs which they are not very happy with. It could be that they are useful because they have spent all there time studying but not spent enough time looking round the world.

1 Reply

@DAC,

cws910;119199 wrote:

Which is more worthwhile: making D students C- students, or A students A+ students?

My stand on this is that A students should be A+ students. Those who are A students are those who have the drive and talent to make major leaps forward in indusry, and since students of low grade/drive will only repeat what had been done, wouldn't it be better to clear the field for those with the most potiental?

This is a cynical viewpoint, and I know it, but I think that while it is cynical and cruel to those who would be left behind, I think I would benifit society as a whole.

I see many problems with this view. Not to sound arrogant, but I was one of these students who had a natural gift for some subjects and had to put in minimal effort when it came to some things. Sit in class, chat a bit, take a few notes here and there and then show up for my test on the topic and get A/A+'s - the odd B if I had really been lazy. Other subjects I was shocking, such as mathematics - as much as I tried I could not grasp some of the mathematical concepts I was presented by the teacher I had. I know I was only good at certain topics, and I did well in my interests. Others had a lot more incentive than me.

By stating I was an average C in my mathematics class, am I instantly inept? Am I not "intelligent" enough to give to society? I think you would respond it would be relative to the topics I did well in, and that would be my area of expertise or study. The problem is, how do you measure incentive of an individual? How do you measure intelligence? And please do not go whipping out some statistics on people with high I.Q's and careers as I believe all such testing is based on knowing certain knowledge - someone with a certain education will be able to score better on I.Q tests than someone without such knowledge, take for instance cultural disparities. I.Q - ultimately a useless number which means nothing to no one if you cannot do something practical with your supposed intellect.

I see no valid ground in stating potential can be quantified by a few people with a teaching degree and faulty curricula suited to only mid-range student which learn in X fashion.

Jebediah;119918 wrote:

I believe in some countries they split students up at a certain age into "vocational" and "academic" tracks based on grades.

This is true, and in some ways effective. However, some students are late in getting their act together or understanding crucial concepts. Meantime they have been shoved into a woodwork room and getting an apprenticeship when they really wanted to study at university and could have probably entered with sufficient marks. We need to make sure there is some balance and monitoring of such student transfers in case the possibility arises for an individual to change back into the "academic" system.

- Minimal.

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