cws910
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 01:16 pm
Which is more worthwhile: making D students C- students, or A students A+ students?

My stand on this is that A students should be A+ students. Those who are A students are those who have the drive and talent to make major leaps forward in indusry, and since students of low grade/drive will only repeat what had been done, wouldn't it be better to clear the field for those with the most potiental?

This is a cynical viewpoint, and I know it, but I think that while it is cynical and cruel to those who would be left behind, I think I would benifit society as a whole.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 2,143 • Replies: 34
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TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 03:21 pm
@cws910,
cws910;119199 wrote:
Which is more worthwhile: making D students C- students, or A students A+ students?

My stand on this is that A students should be A+ students. Those who are A students are those who have the drive and talent to make major leaps forward in indusry, and since students of low grade/drive will only repeat what had been done, wouldn't it be better to clear the field for those with the most potiental?

This is a cynical viewpoint, and I know it, but I think that while it is cynical and cruel to those who would be left behind, I think I would benifit society as a whole.


So where would you see yourself fitting in? The various spelling errors in your post not withstanding . . . .
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jan, 2010 10:10 pm
@cws910,
Neither. If the grade actually means something, it should be honest.
0 Replies
 
Quinn phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jan, 2010 11:10 pm
@cws910,
cws910;119199 wrote:
Which is more worthwhile: making D students C- students, or A students A+ students?

My stand on this is that A students should be A+ students. Those who are A students are those who have the drive and talent to make major leaps forward in indusry, and since students of low grade/drive will only repeat what had been done, wouldn't it be better to clear the field for those with the most potiental?

This is a cynical viewpoint, and I know it, but I think that while it is cynical and cruel to those who would be left behind, I think I would benifit society as a whole.


How about making a D student into an A student? That's the case for me, and probably a few others. Middle school was bad. Real bad.

Your viewpoint almost contradicts my entire view of intelligence. Intelligence is freedom. When nothing else works, you're able to know something. Your able to grab concepts, and in some cases, create them. Anyone can do this without directly stealing from someone else. The internet is a great example.

Your view is like the "Rich should become richer" side. The only thing that's different about money from intelligence is that there's only so much of it. Intelligence, well... Some could say there's too much. Maybe it's just an opinion matter, but I don't believe in leaving people in the dark. Everyone deserves help, especially with grades. especially with bad grades.
0 Replies
 
William
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 02:42 am
@cws910,
The entire grading system is flawed. There are many gifted human beings who just don't "get" many subjects, yet excel in others. What is so sad is many have talents that academia doesn't even list among it's required criteria such an manual skills that might be associated with labor and custom craftsmanship. There used to be value in "custom made" that has all but disappeared thanks to mass production and technology. Couple that with planned obsolescence and the cost of living and you have a dead end street.

Every human being must have a feeling of self worth no matter what it is they offer and should not be graded as to how good they are. To do otherwise breeds condescension, status, envy and animosity; and those encourage separation, hate and greed.

A child should not be discouraged in any respect as to the talents, gifts or anything else they have to offer because the don't fit some sort of preconceived blueprint to continue the status quo.

Oh, and by the way ttm, your remark was totally uncalled for.

William
Emil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 07:14 am
@cws910,
cws910;119199 wrote:
Which is more worthwhile: making D students C- students, or A students A+ students?

My stand on this is that A students should be A+ students. Those who are A students are those who have the drive and talent to make major leaps forward in indusry, and since students of low grade/drive will only repeat what had been done, wouldn't it be better to clear the field for those with the most potiental?

This is a cynical viewpoint, and I know it, but I think that while it is cynical and cruel to those who would be left behind, I think I would benifit society as a whole.


I agree with this. Now what?
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 08:25 am
@cws910,
cws910;119199 wrote:
Which is more worthwhile: making D students C- students, or A students A+ students?

My stand on this is that A students should be A+ students. Those who are A students are those who have the drive and talent to make major leaps forward in indusry, and since students of low grade/drive will only repeat what had been done, wouldn't it be better to clear the field for those with the most potiental?

This is a cynical viewpoint, and I know it, but I think that while it is cynical and cruel to those who would be left behind, I think I would benifit society as a whole.


If the issue is how we will get more bang for the buck (as it seems to be) I think it would be better to educate more students up to their potential, rather than to try to make the A student an A+ student. A students will not need to be "A plused" to make break-through discoveries, snf the overall efficiency of people will be increased by attending to all of them. What is the argument for thinking that A few more A+ students would be better?
Jebediah
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 08:49 am
@kennethamy,
I believe in some countries they split students up at a certain age into "vocational" and "academic" tracks based on grades.
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 08:56 am
@cws910,
cws910;119199 wrote:
Which is more worthwhile: making D students C- students, or A students A+ students?

My stand on this is that A students should be A+ students. Those who are A students are those who have the drive and talent to make major leaps forward in indusry, and since students of low grade/drive will only repeat what had been done, wouldn't it be better to clear the field for those with the most potiental?

This is a cynical viewpoint, and I know it, but I think that while it is cynical and cruel to those who would be left behind, I think I would benifit society as a whole.


Can you be more specific as to what you mean by make D students C- students, and make A students A+ students? You would make the student improve their grade? How?

If the student that was the A student had the drive and talent you say he does, why isn't he getting A+'s in the first place? We have to make him get A+'s? Well, it would seem as though he doesn't have as much drive as you let on.

And who's to say the D or C students aren't going to make major leaps in industry? You'd be surprised how many pioneers of industry performed rather poorly in an academic setting. Perhaps getting A's is a good indication as to the drive and talent of astudent, but it certainly shouldn't be the only thing we evaluate a student on, should it?
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 09:02 am
@Jebediah,
Jebediah;119918 wrote:
I believe in some countries they split students up at a certain age into "vocational" and "academic" tracks based on grades.


Yes, in Britain, for instance.
0 Replies
 
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 12:57 pm
@William,
William;119879 wrote:

Every human being must have a feeling of self worth no matter what it is they offer and should not be graded as to how good they are.

But what about when such people begin producing goods? Should someone who is able to produce something of high quality and beauty be paid the same as someone who, despite their best efforts, is only able to produce unattractive goods of poor quality?

William;119879 wrote:
To do otherwise breeds condescension, status, envy and animosity; and those encourage separation, hate and greed.

But doesn't grading or placing value upon something also encourage people to try harder?

William;119879 wrote:
A child should not be discouraged in any respect as to the talents, gifts or anything else they have to offer because the don't fit some sort of preconceived blueprint to continue the status quo.
I agree with you here. But I also think there is a time when it is appropriate to suggest that someone examine a different path.

William;119879 wrote:
Oh, and by the way ttm, your remark was totally uncalled for.

William


Perhaps. But does that invalidate the question?
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 01:31 pm
@cws910,
TickTockMan wrote:

I agree with you here. But I also think there is a time when it is appropriate to suggest that someone examine a different path.


Such as if one of the child's talents is killing precision. Instead of allowing them to live the life of a serial killer, we may suggest they be placed in the army, for instance.
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 01:34 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;119988 wrote:
Such as if one of the child's talents is killing precision. Instead of allowing them to live the life of a serial killer, we may choose to place them in the army, for instance.


Yes. I had a friend like that back in high school. He went into SpecOps in the military, where he specialized in blowing things up and booby-trapping equipment that had to be abandoned on the battlefield.
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 01:36 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;119990 wrote:
Yes. I had a friend like that back in high school. He went into SpecOps in the military, where he specialized in blowing things up and booby-trapping equipment that had to be abandoned on the battlefield.


I wonder if he got all A+'s.
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 01:40 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;119991 wrote:
I wonder if he got all A+'s.


Wonder no longer. He was a C student, but only when he applied himself.
0 Replies
 
Hi My Name Is
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 04:49 pm
@cws910,
cws910;119199 wrote:
Which is more worthwhile: making D students C- students, or A students A+ students?

My stand on this is that A students should be A+ students. Those who are A students are those who have the drive and talent to make major leaps forward in indusry, and since students of low grade/drive will only repeat what had been done, wouldn't it be better to clear the field for those with the most potiental?

This is a cynical viewpoint, and I know it, but I think that while it is cynical and cruel to those who would be left behind, I think I would benifit society as a whole.


Are you suggesting that only students who have A+'s make new discoveries? Judging a person's potential by a flawed school system that surely you must feel has it's problems too is a critical mistake. People do not only have to have the best grades in order to penetrate into the unknown. Think logically. Knowledge is a considerable advantage, but one must also possess determination, a dedication for what they do, and patience.

Another point: You are saying that making plunges into new society is done mostly by A+ students. Say for example that I do not object that A+ students discover the most things. Still, you are trying to fastforward our society's progress. As a visual help, I will use the analogy of Legos.

Everyone's used Legos before, right? Surely at least one time in your life, you stacked a bunch of Legos on top of each other to see how high you can make it before it topples over. That is what you are implying. It is truly more important to make our society the tallest, most glamorous pedestal among all of the other pillars if we are going to fall anyway, or is it more important to make our pillar the most sturdy and stable foundation of all the others, which will decay and crumble before ours?

Does anyone agree with me?
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 08:30 am
@Hi My Name Is,
We're drawing some mighty-large associations here
[INDENT]1. High grades does not correlate to how productive, 'good, or successful one is in any context.

2. Low or high grades in school measures how well someone's assimilated the knowledge and concepts presented; nothing more, nothing less

3. Grading doesn't even accurately represent this very well either. Other factors disconnect the "how well" from the grade received (everything from test formulation to test anxiety to what Billy had for breakfast to how many others were in the class and on and on).

4. The worst false-correlation I see, is the implied "worth" given to the people graded; as if this had anything to do with success in life, industry, community, etc. The longer you stick around the more, I believe, you'll find that this is no correlation at all.

5. I also see an implication that perhaps more effort (or resources) might be available to invest into <this set of students> or <that>. I fear that for those of elementary, junior or high school; school is just a way of "babysitting". My country hasn't any concept of the importance of quality education - so it's constantly cut/marginalized while parents just want junior out of their hair. Apologies for the negativity here, this is just a trend I'm seeing.
[/INDENT]Thanks
Jebediah
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 10:26 am
@Khethil,
What makes you think there's no correlation? Having the capacity to assimilate knowledge is a key part of intelligence.
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 10:28 am
@cws910,
Khethil wrote:

4. The worst false-correlation I see, is the implied "worth" given to the people graded; as if this had anything to do with success in life, industry, community, etc. The longer you stick around the more, I believe, you'll find that this is no correlation at all.


But perhaps there is a correlation between how successful a person will be and what grades they get. A correlation does not mean there aren't exceptions -- on either side of the fence. It is not a guarentee of any sort. All it really means is that there's good reason (if there's a high correlation) to believe that if someone has the motivation to get good grades, they will have the motivation to continue that success throughout life.

To base everything off that is fallacious, though, you're absolutely right. But I don't know who's arguing that. One can acknowledge that good grades are a good indicator, while also acknowledge that there are other good indicators (which have nothing to do with grades).
Emil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 11:17 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;120152 wrote:
But perhaps there is a correlation between how successful a person will be and what grades they get. A correlation does not mean there aren't exceptions -- on either side of the fence. It is not a guarentee of any sort. All it really means is that there's good reason (if there's a high correlation) to believe that if someone has the motivation to get good grades, they will have the motivation to continue that success throughout life.

To base everything off that is fallacious, though, you're absolutely right. But I don't know who's arguing that. One can acknowledge that good grades are a good indicator, while also acknowledge that there are other good indicators (which have nothing to do with grades).


Of course there is a such correlation. Just as there is a correlation between I.Q. and average payment later later in life etc. There is a correlation between grades and I.Q. And also, not surprising, between non-religiousness/atheism and I.Q. etc.

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