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Definition of Reality

 
 
housby
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 07:34 am
@paulhanke,
paulhanke;123947 wrote:
... but what would an ego-less perception be of ... it couldn't be a perception of an object, because the perception of an object logically presupposes the existence of a subject (an ego), doesn't it? ...

Good point. But I think I understand where Jeeprs is coming from. To fully understand this one has to stop thinking in terms of subject/object (difficult enough). Try a look at Pirsig's book "Lila" where he expands massively on his Metaphysics of Quality and it does a lot to try to clear this up. I'm not saying there are no holes in his argument but the more I read it (I am currently on it again for the umpteenth time over the years) but it makes more sense the more you read it and understand it. I'm not going to try to explain it here, it's just worth a read.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 07:45 am
@housby,
housby;124054 wrote:
Good point. But I think I understand where Jeeprs is coming from. To fully understand this one has to stop thinking in terms of subject/object (difficult enough). .


If we stop thinking in terms of subject/object, will that make it disappear?
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 11:53 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;124060 wrote:
If we stop thinking in terms of subject/object, will that make it disappear?


Yes, but only from the point of view of individual perception.

If you got knocked out, I would still have a firm enough grasp
of subject and object to pour cold water over you.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 03:39 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;124132 wrote:
Yes, but only from the point of view of individual perception.

If you got knocked out, I would still have a firm enough grasp
of subject and object to pour cold water over you.


You mean subject/object will vanish if I stop thinking in those terms?
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 03:55 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;124205 wrote:
You mean subject/object will vanish if I stop thinking in those terms?


That's not what I said.

If you, kennethamy, are knocked senseless, completely out cold, you personally will not, I don't think, be aware of subject/object until you are revived. Not that they will vanish for the rest of us. Hence my ability to pour cold water on you or waft smelling salts under your nostrils.

But maybe I'm making assumptions about your consciousness. I've been knocked out a number of times, and was unaware of anything until I came to my senses.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 04:58 pm
@housby,
This is not about unconsciousness. It is about states of mind beyond ordinary subject-and-object consciousness. In Hindu philosophy these are called turiya, the fourth state (beyond waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep). This is also related to a state known as nirvikalpa (=non-conceptual) samadhi. Traditionally it is said that these states are very hard to attain. However you can realise the benefits of meditation and get some insights into these higher states with being completely adept at them. The teachings of Ramana Maharishi contain a lot of information about all of this.

There are similar ideas in Buddhist meditation teaching, whereby the practitioner ascends through various levels of 'jhana'. This is extensively documented in the ancient literature. Again it is understood to be very difficult to master these mental disciplines and there is also some dispute as to whether they really should be understood as pre-requisites for the aim of liberation. According to the 'vipassana' (or 'insight') teaching and also Zen teachings, it is not necessary to reach any particular state, but only to 'maintain mindfulness'.

I acknowledge this is all very exotic in the context of western philosophy but in analytical terms, it has a logical basis. If you look into developmental psychology then the formation of the ego-identity is a definite phase or 'station of consciousness'. A very young infant doesn't have a conscious sense of self - it is 'pure id', in Freudian terms. The ego forms early in childhood and generally maintains its coherence throughout life. The Eastern spiritual disciplines concern what have been called 'transpersonal' states which provide access to states beyond ordinary awareness or ego-consciousness. This is what it has always been about. These teachings are now percolating through Western culture. And they do provide an alternative perspective on this whole question of the nature of reality. This is showing up in a number of Western sciences and related disciplines. It is an important area of knowledge.
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 05:33 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;124229 wrote:
This is not about unconsciousness. It is about states of mind beyond ordinary subject-and-object consciousness.


But again, these states of mind, when experienced by someone else, won't affect me.

I've been in states of mind where everything narrowed down to a spinning tunnel vortex of neon bullwhips throwing off jeweled sparks and wrapping around hurtling chrome spheres reflecting all the colors of the universe while armies of shiny rubberized garden gnomes whispered the secrets of the cosmos into my funnel-shaped head . . .

. . . but I was the only one who saw all that.

But perhaps I'm missing the point.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 05:49 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;124229 wrote:
This is not about unconsciousness. It is about states of mind beyond ordinary subject-and-object consciousness. In Hindu philosophy these are called turiya, the fourth state (beyond waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep). This is also related to a state known as nirvikalpa (=non-conceptual) samadhi. Traditionally it is said that these states are very hard to attain. However you can realise the benefits of meditation and get some insights into these higher states with being completely adept at them. The teachings of Ramana Maharishi contain a lot of information about all of this.

There are similar ideas in Buddhist meditation teaching, whereby the practitioner ascends through various levels of 'jhana'. This is extensively documented in the ancient literature. Again it is understood to be very difficult to master these mental disciplines and there is also some dispute as to whether they really should be understood as pre-requisites for the aim of liberation. According to the 'vipassana' (or 'insight') teaching and also Zen teachings, it is not necessary to reach any particular state, but only to 'maintain mindfulness'.

I acknowledge this is all very exotic in the context of western philosophy but in analytical terms, it has a logical basis. If you look into developmental psychology then the formation of the ego-identity is a definite phase or 'station of consciousness'. A very young infant doesn't have a conscious sense of self - it is 'pure id', in Freudian terms. The ego forms early in childhood and generally maintains its coherence throughout life. The Eastern spiritual disciplines concern what have been called 'transpersonal' states which provide access to states beyond ordinary awareness or ego-consciousness. This is what it has always been about. These teachings are now percolating through Western culture. And they do provide an alternative perspective on this whole question of the nature of reality. This is showing up in a number of Western sciences and related disciplines. It is an important area of knowledge.


But what has a person's state of mind (whatever it is) to do with reality?
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 06:12 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;124239 wrote:
But what has a person's state of mind (whatever it is) to do with reality?


People like Wayne Dyer would have us believe it has everything to do with reality. But then, his paycheck sort of depends on his ability to sell people on this idea.

I enjoyed this critique. I post it here for entertainment purposes only:
Wayne Dyer -- 10 Secrets, a critique
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 06:29 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;124239 wrote:
But what has a person's state of mind (whatever it is) to do with reality?


Well, the mind in a very important sense creates reality. The mind synthesises all of the sensory input that is received by the sense-gateways and generates what we is referred to as 'reality' in light of all of the received information and also our pre-dispositions, attitudes, and so on. This is 'our world'.

This is not necessarily anti-realist or idealist, in a crude sense. It is not about whether, in the absence of perception, things continue to exist or not. But it does observe that many of the significances that we atttribute to the world are the products of ourselves.

Here is an analogy. Imagine you're a very paranoid and fearful person. In this case, your reality is very fearful, teeming with enemies and threats. Imagine you are under the influence of an hallucinogen. In this case, your reality is phantasmagorical. Whatever attitude you have, it will generate your reality accordingly.
0 Replies
 
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 06:43 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;123980 wrote:
It is not religious in the Western sense of the word, but neither is it scientific, because it addresses the inner human.


... I have often wondered if it could be a characteristic of beings caught up within evolution to experience flashes of what the next evolutionary jump might bring, at least as far as cognitive abilities are concerned ... but how would one distinguish between such a flash of "real" ability and/or insight versus, say, something akin to William James' experimentation with nitrous oxide? ...
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 06:46 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;124245 wrote:
People like Wayne Dyer would have us believe it has everything to do with reality. But then, his paycheck sort of depends on his ability to sell people on this idea.

I enjoyed this critique. I post it here for entertainment purposes only:
Wayne Dyer -- 10 Secrets, a critique


Who is he?????????????
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 06:49 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;124250 wrote:
Who is he?????????????


My nemesis.
Dr. Wayne Dyer - Internationally renowned author and speaker - Official Site
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 07:10 pm
@paulhanke,
paulhanke;124248 wrote:
... I have often wondered if it could be a characteristic of beings caught up within evolution to experience flashes of what the next evolutionary jump might bring, at least as far as cognitive abilities are concerned ... but how would one distinguish between such a flash of "real" ability and/or insight versus, say, something akin to William James' experimentation with nitrous oxide? ...


Great question

I suggest you have a look at Richard Maurice Bucke's title, Cosmic Consciousness, published in 1901. He presents exactly this idea, and backs it up with a lot of documentation. Of course, these ideas, and his book, are far from mainstream. But I really don't think that Bucke should be written off. He was a really a representative of the American 'transcendentalist' movement, as were Emerson, Thoreau and Whitman, and later, Franklin Merrill-Wolff. He was the warden of a large psychiatric treatment centre which pioneered humane ways of dealing with mental illness.

Cosmic Consciousness - which in my view is probably one of the very first, and most influential, books of what was to become New Age - presents a serious idea, that humanity is indeed developing towards a state of consciousness which is 'as far above ordinary human consciousness as we are above those of animals'. He presents a quasi-scientific argument for this idea, and then proceeds to document it with reference to Jesus, Buddha, St John of the Cross, and others whom he believed possessed this faculty.

I am indebted to this book, as it basically presents a model, even possibly a scientific model, which makes sense out of the whole idea of 'higher states' and provides a cross-cultural study of same.

There are some odd things about the book, and some predictions that have spectacularly failed to materialise ("air travel will usher in a new age of world peace" being one of them.) Bucke is obviously a highly idealistic and very original thinker. But I don't think eccentric or wrong in his basic ideas. YOu can probably find the foreword on Google Books.

---------- Post added 02-02-2010 at 12:15 PM ----------

as for the question of differentiating hallucinations and so on from genuine insights, of course it can be argued that all non-ordinary states are simply delusional, and many people will want to do that. But there is a massive amount of literature on these topics which show the same insights, themes and realizations occuring in numerous individuals from diverse cultural backgrounds. In other words, it is not hard to validate the common core of these experiences. There is a library of reference materials on a website called the Council on Spiritual Practises.
0 Replies
 
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 07:23 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;124245 wrote:


... there appear to be some appropriate cautionary words in that critique: "Just ignore or redefine the problem such that as far as you are concerned, it no longer exists." ... the appropriateness being that I'm not so sure that transcending the subject/object duality out of existence is any better a way of apprehending the place of human being within Reality than is reducing the subject/object duality out of existence ...

---------- Post added 02-01-2010 at 06:52 PM ----------

jeeprs;124253 wrote:
as for the question of differentiating hallucinations and so on from genuine insights, of course it can be argued that all non-ordinary states are simply delusional, and many people will want to do that. But there is a massive amount of literature on these topics which show the same insights, themes and realizations occuring in numerous individuals from diverse cultural backgrounds. In other words, it is not hard to validate the common core of these experiences. There is a library of reference materials on a website called the Council on Spiritual Practises.


... it could also be argued that all states are delusional, but that "ordinary" states tend to be more isomorphic with Reality than "non-ordinary" states Smile ... unfortunately, the human mind has a tendency to fail in predictable ways (e.g., schizophrenia) - so even a common core of non-ordinary experiences falls short of convincing if there is no demonstrable way to ground it in Reality (which could be a serious epistemological problem if Reality isn't 100% intelligible!) ...
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 08:32 pm
@housby,
I think there is sub-normal (although that sounds pejorative I admit), then normal, then super-normal, along a distribution curve. Sub-normal would correspond with mental illness, sociopathy, and so on, through 'normality' where presumably most of us are, up through highly-developed and integrated individuals at the high end. Abraham Maslow anticipated this with his model of transpersonal psychologcal development and the idea of 'self-actualization'. Plus it is all stock in trade for the 'integral philosophy' movement. There are some traps in it though - lends itself to elitism and guru scandals. I mostly stay clear of that lot.
0 Replies
 
longknowledge
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 10:55 pm
@paulhanke,
paulhanke;124256 wrote:
it could also be argued that all states are delusional, but that "ordinary" states tend to be more isomorphic with Reality than "non-ordinary" states Smile


There was a time when "rationality" was a "non-ordinary" state. Maybe it still is! :flowers:
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 11:34 pm
@housby,
well I think part of the modern mind-set is to believe that normality is reality. If you reflect back on the history of philosophy, many of the greatest sages were non-conventional. There were many renunciates, recluses, eccentrics, visionaries, outsiders and mavericks.

There were very few academics.
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 11:40 pm
@housby,
The "definition of reality" can not logically exculude subjective experience (mind and consciousness) since the question only arises out of our subjective experience (self awareness) and can only be evaluated and answered by an experiencing "I". In the scientific realm of objective experience nature proceeds from the many (empirical observation) to the "one" mathematical laws of simplicity, elegance, beauty and symmetry. In the spiritual realm the "many" (indiviudal consciusness) also may proceed towards the "one" unity of experience (monism, oneness, unity). Such a symmetry between the physical realm and the mental realm would be in keeping with the general theme of the unity of the "real" as opposed to the illusion of the "many".
Nature strives toward the creation of value (the true, the beautiful and the good), towards the actualization of the realm of the possibliity of value (the ideal). It is no accident and not the result of blind indifference that the universe is aesthetically beautiful and also represented in the symbolic logic of mathematical symbols. Beauty is the result of proportion, ratios and symmetry in the same manner that the laws of nature reveal themselves.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 12:25 am
@prothero,
prothero;124276 wrote:
The "definition of reality" can not logically exculude subjective experience (mind and consciousness) since the question only arises out of our subjective experience (self awareness) and can only be evaluated and answered by an experiencing "I".


Well, of course, whether we know something is real depends on our "subjective experiences". Knowing depends partly on mind. But whether or not something is real does not depend on anyone's "subjective experiences". In fact, whether the Moon is real or not, does not depend on whether there are any sentient beings. Since we know that there was a Moon before there were any sentient beings on Earth. We should not confuse what we have experience of with the object of our experience.
 

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