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Definition of Reality

 
 
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 02:18 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;125154 wrote:


That seems self-evident.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 02:20 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;125161 wrote:
That seems self-evident.


Obviously as you put it...still what was my confusion ? and why ?
0 Replies
 
pagan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 02:21 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
the idea that reality for all humans can be traced back to sensory perception is based upon the idea that most of reality is outside the brain and the brain is only a subset. It follows that this idea itself can be traced to the senses. (ie an idea expressed in language is dependent upon language, and language is created and interpreted within brains, and language evolved within brains from the brain using sensory data.) Its an idea that is very powerful. But it is quite obviously a circular idea, it assumes that most reality is outside the brain, the reality within the brain (such as this idea itself) is only a subset.

naive realism is a different narrative and challenges this basic assumption, and states that when we see a tree it is a tree we see..... not light, not eye neurons, not chemistry or electricity, that represents internally within the brain a tree. Science is not compatible with naive realism. Objectivity is compatible to both. But it is a different kind of objectivity in naive realism .... not based upon chains of cause and effect.

When we compare objective reality based upon science compared to objective reality based upon naive realism, we will have to be pay very particular attention to the language shared in the conversation. We will also have to be very careful that that shared language can enable us to switch within ourselves from one objectivity to another form of objectivity without noticing. This is particularily true if each type of objectivity (eg memory based as compared to rationality based) have both individually appeal and distaste. Thus we switch to keep the good of each...... and if we can do this without noticing then all the better.

'Tree' as within the brain compared to tree outside the brain uses the same word. They could not be more different however, especially on discussions of reality. That ambiguity is useful to avoid philosophical mental stress. But equally it causes endless discussions to spiral around and around.
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 02:24 pm
@housby,
So nothing that is mind-dependent (such as ideas), is part of reality?

Without my mind, trees would still exist, as trees are part of reality. And without my mind, my friend's mind would still exist. Would this mean that my friend's mind is part of reality? Or, do minds not exist? In other words, I have a real mind, but my mind isn't real? That's a bit intertroubling (interesting and troubling, at once).
pagan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 02:38 pm
@Zetherin,
Quote:
zetherin
So nothing that is mind-dependent (such as ideas), is part of reality?
???

Quote:
the idea that reality for all humans can be traced back to sensory perception is based upon the idea that most of reality is outside the brain and the brain is only a subset.
at no point does this idea state that that within the brain is not real. A subset of reality is real by definition. Ideas are clearly real in this scheme. They are however not generally 'the outside reality of the thing' that they refer to. This is a very uncomfortable idea, not least because science is so powerful.
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 02:56 pm
@pagan,
pagan;125174 wrote:
???

at no point does this idea state that that within the brain is not real. A subset of reality is real by definition. Ideas are clearly real in this scheme. They are however not generally 'the outside reality of the thing' that they refer to. This is a very uncomfortable idea, not least because science is so powerful.


Oh, I'm sorry, my post wasn't in response to yours. It was in response to those who have defined reality as that which is mind-independent.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 03:08 pm
@housby,
The obsession with certainty ends (in my opinion) with pragmatism. The only thing we can be certain of is our desires. Between the claim of transcendent truth and pragmatism are many compromises and modifications -- which interest me only as history.
0 Replies
 
pagan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 03:11 pm
@Zetherin,
oops ok zetherin Smile

interesting however is a new physics paradigm being very seriously considered, which for want of a better word i would call info realism.

Info realism can potentially bridge naive realism and idealism such that we see the tree again. BUT most info realists do not believe that the brain is capable of doing that, so they retreat to idealism with regard to our brains.

However, if the stress of remoteness in idealism seems great enough, there lurks an even more profound scare in info realism. But maybe i can explain it tomorrow if people are interested.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 04:37 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;125026 wrote:
You must believe there were minds before there were people. Have you a good reason for believing that?


Not 'minds'. Mind. The universe is so constructed, that the evolution and development of intelligent minds, such as ourselves, seems to have been implicit and anticipated.

See The Anthropic Cosmological Principle by Tipler and Wheeler.

I have come around to the viewpoint that the only reason we are capable of abstract reasoning and higher mathematics is because we somehow embody or reflect the latent intelligibility of the Universe itself. From an essay I quoted earlier on Kant:

Quote:
Kant always believed that the rational structure of the mind reflected the rational structure of the world, even of things-in-themselves -- that the "operating system" of the processor, by modern analogy, matched the operating system of reality. But Kant had no real argument for this -- the "Ideas" of reason just become "postulates" of morality -- and his system leaves it as something unprovable.
The reason everyone clings to the idea of 'mind-independent reality' is because objectivity and the objective realm is what the modern world regards as real. From inside this perspective, the belief system that has engendered it is so strong that it is impossible to imagine another way of seeing things.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 04:41 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;125131 wrote:
It could be, but personally I would not want to participate in any form of reality that might unfold itself from that scenario. And I would be very explicit about my insistence to not be implicated with that referent.


Coward!...............

---------- Post added 02-05-2010 at 05:45 PM ----------

jeeprs;125257 wrote:
Not 'minds'. Mind. The universe is so constructed, that the evolution and development of intelligent minds, such as ourselves, seems to have been implicit and anticipated.

See The Anthropic Cosmological Principle by Tipler and Wheeler.

I have come around to the viewpoint that the only reason we are capable of abstract reasoning and higher mathematics is because we somehow embody or reflect the latent intelligibility of the Universe itself. From an essay I quoted earlier on Kant:

The reason everyone clings to the idea of 'mind-independent reality' is because objectivity and the objective realm is what the modern world regards as real. From inside this perspective, the belief system that has engendered it is so strong that it is impossible to imagine another way of seeing things.


Well, so far as I can see, you have given no good reason for the view you hold. What you do give is vague speculation.

Your last paragraph may explain why people think as they do. But it does not show in the least that they are mistaken to think as they do.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 05:18 pm
@housby,
That's OK, I don't wish to pursue it any further at this point. Many thanks for your comments and criticisms.
0 Replies
 
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 05:18 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;125262 wrote:
Coward!...............


I prefer the term "poltroon", if it's all the same to you.

-----------------------

Well, I have to be away for most of the weekend.
If you guys could just get this whole "reality" thing
solved and wrapped up for me by Monday I'd appreciate it.

Thanking you in advance for your assistance in this matter,
TickTockMan
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 06:20 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;125281 wrote:
I prefer the term "poltroon", if it's all the same to you.

-----------------------

Well, I have to be away for most of the weekend.
If you guys could just get this whole "reality" thing
solved and wrapped up for me by Monday I'd appreciate it.

Thanking you in advance for your assistance in this matter,
TickTockMan


I will do my best. But there is opposition.
housby
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 07:37 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;124984 wrote:
Awkward though it might seem, I don't agree with your use of the word 'proof' in this context. Given that carbon-dating or dating from radioactive elements is accurate, I don't doubt a geologist when he tells me 'this rock is around 1.5 million years old'.

Neither do I. The problem I am trying to solve is any proof that a world with carbon dating exists, not the proof of anything connected with carbon dating. Carbon dating proves the age of things as accurately as is possible as far as we know. As I said what seems like an age ago in this thread, we are not discussing what is outside of the box, we are discussing the box itself.

---------- Post added 02-06-2010 at 01:49 AM ----------

kennethamy;125012 wrote:
If evidence does not constitute proof, then what would? I don't know what you are asking when you ask what a stone is. Suppose I ask you, what are mashed potatoes. What would you think I was asking? What would be your answer. The question is too vague for any sensible answer. It commits the fallacy of asking about nothing in particular.

Exactly!!!! I have never disagreed with the basics of what you say. My basic question about reality and "the world" was never about what we "experience" but if we can actually trust the evidence of our experience as it is. I'm not asking about "nothing in particular". I have been trying to highlight the impossibility of answering the question in the first place.
longknowledge
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 08:03 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;125290 wrote:
I will do my best. But there is opposition.


Hi! :flowers:

kennethamy;125106 wrote:
Post added 02-03-2010 at 5:17 PM
Mirages have certain perceived properties, etc. But mirages aren't real.


kennethamy;125106 wrote:
Posted 02-04-2010, 08:69 AM
They [mirages] are real mirages, . . . But mirages are not real (oases) . . .


kennethamy;125106 wrote:
Posted 02-05-2010, 12;21 PM
Of course, no one said that mirages are real. What would that mean? That mirages are really oases? (Of course, there are real mirages, but that's different).

Of course, no one said that mirages are real oases. What would that mean? That oases are real? (Of course, there are real mirages, but that's different).
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 08:08 pm
@longknowledge,
longknowledge;125325 wrote:
Hi! :flowers:






Of course, no one said that mirages are real oases. What would that mean? That oases are real? (Of course, there are real mirages, but that's different).


Would you please explain what it is you are illustrating?

Mirages are not real, but, of course, there are real mirages. Just as toy trucks are not real trucks, but, of course, toy trucks are real.

---------- Post added 02-05-2010 at 09:16 PM ----------

housby;125321 wrote:
Neither do I. The problem I am trying to solve is any proof that a world with carbon dating exists, not the proof of anything connected with carbon dating. Carbon dating proves the age of things as accurately as is possible as far as we know. As I said what seems like an age ago in this thread, we are not discussing what is outside of the box, we are discussing the box itself.

---------- Post added 02-06-2010 at 01:49 AM ----------


Exactly!!!! I have never disagreed with the basics of what you say. My basic question about reality and "the world" was never about what we "experience" but if we can actually trust the evidence of our experience as it is. I'm not asking about "nothing in particular". I have been trying to highlight the impossibility of answering the question in the first place.


If you are asking whether what we believe to be evidence is evidence, my answer is, yes. What else would it be, and what reason would we have for not thinking it was?
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 08:17 pm
@housby,
housby;125321 wrote:
Neither do I. The problem I am trying to solve is any proof that a world with carbon dating exists, not the proof of anything connected with carbon dating. Carbon dating proves the age of things as accurately as is possible as far as we know. As I said what seems like an age ago in this thread, we are not discussing what is outside of the box, we are discussing the box itself.


OK I'm with you now. I think it has been a very interesting discussion actually. Thanks.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 08:22 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;125330 wrote:
OK I'm with you now. I think it has been a very interesting discussion actually. Thanks.


See the previous post. Shouldn't there be some reason for thinking that what we believe is evidence is not?
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 08:33 pm
@housby,
Well at this stage I don't want to continue because I will be repeating myself. I understand both points of view, but I think they are coming from completely different perspectives.

In various philosophical traditions, but especially in Mahayana Buddhism, there is a distinction made between conventional and ultimate truth (or reality). I don't think this is the place to spell it out. I also don't think it will be recognized by anyone who doesn't believe that the Buddha was able to perceive an 'eternal truth'. In any case by way of a very summary statement there is quite a good account of the idea at Two truths doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

I sympathise with what the original poster is saying, or trying to say, although I don't know if he is saying it particularly well, but that is understandable, because it is a difficult perspective to articulate - it is perhaps one of those topics about which Wittgenstein counseled us to remain silent. So I am kind of saying 'well I see what you mean' even though I also understand why a Kennethamy might object to it. (I suppose that is about as clear as mud but the best I can manage, at the moment.)

Anyway have a look at the Wikipedia article. I might do a new post on that in the Buddhism forum.
Scottydamion
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 09:28 pm
@housby,
housby;125321 wrote:
Neither do I. The problem I am trying to solve is any proof that a world with carbon dating exists, not the proof of anything connected with carbon dating. Carbon dating proves the age of things as accurately as is possible as far as we know. As I said what seems like an age ago in this thread, we are not discussing what is outside of the box, we are discussing the box itself.

---------- Post added 02-06-2010 at 01:49 AM ----------


Exactly!!!! I have never disagreed with the basics of what you say. My basic question about reality and "the world" was never about what we "experience" but if we can actually trust the evidence of our experience as it is. I'm not asking about "nothing in particular". I have been trying to highlight the impossibility of answering the question in the first place.


If this helps, I think you are saying that even if consistency is possible, like that of carbon dating to determine the age of something, that consistency does not point towards an ability to determine what reality is. If the "box" we are in is fake in any way, then we do not grasp what reality is, we simply grasp the box or the illusion of reality.

It falls under examples such as Descartes's brain in a vat, or mad scientist, or other examples like a dream inside of a dream being our experiences. If I have understood your points?
0 Replies
 
 

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