memester
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 06:12 am
@Fido,
Fido;124137 wrote:
Cultural evolution is adaptation...We have not necessarily become better, faster, or stonger as a result of language...In fact, we have found unique ways of killing off the fittest to allow the unfit their survival, and the more the unfit breed, the more we must burden the poor with the support of the sick...Look at how much of our medical technology goes to the support and nurishment of genetic diseases in the population...Such people in the past would have been weeded out, and it is social and moral considerattions that keep them alive...Feuds used to kill off the weak and not so smart...War kills off the fittest first, and eveyone else as they get in the way...We have no appreciation for the logic of the past...We do not know how we got to this point, so we are left making moral judgements wiithout understanding.
evolution is not necessarily getting "faster stronger better"
Magnus phil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 10:16 am
@Fido,
Evolution does not always take the ideal route.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 12:43 pm
@memester,
memester;124316 wrote:
evolution is not necessarily getting "faster stronger better"

It better be, or it is de-evolution.
QuinticNon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 02:10 pm
@dan b,
Evolution is a combination of Language and Natural Selection.

It cannot take place otherwise. Natural Selectiion is an observable phenomenon. It needs the mechanism of Language to act upon. This Biological Language is in the form of DNA. DNA is the Genetic Code. All Codes are forms of Language protocols. The Genetic Code directs an organisms mutations. No Evolution is possible without a mutation... neither biological or cultural. Natural Selection cannot select the benificial mutation unless a mutation has occurred.

Biology operates this way. Culture operates this way. And even Google operates this way.

In the beginning was the Word... and the Word became flesh.

___________________________________


Hey, but I'm not suggesting that Natural Selection always has the best Mutations to work with... Why did our tails fall off but our trigger fingers remained in place?:listening:
0 Replies
 
memester
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 03:51 pm
@Fido,
Fido;124395 wrote:
It better be, or it is de-evolution.
no, Evolution is just change.
It could be to move faster or to move slower. to get bigger, get smaller...get smarter, get less smart.

just change.

did you know that there is an organism that begins it's life with a brain and then loses it ?

yeah. that's evolved
Magnus phil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 04:00 pm
@dan b,
If it wasn't for language and the evolution of it, none of us would be on this forum.
memester
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 04:18 pm
@Magnus phil,
Magnus;124456 wrote:
If it wasn't for language and the evolution of it, none of us would be on this forum.

if it wan't for this forum, I wouldn't be on the pc right now.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 04:45 pm
@memester,
memester;124453 wrote:
no, Evolution is just change.
It could be to move faster or to move slower. to get bigger, get smaller...get smarter, get less smart.

just change.

did you know that there is an organism that begins it's life with a brain and then loses it ?

yeah. that's evolved

If it is not a positive adaptation to the environment then change is a detriment...Language, the ability, and the concepts that come with it are a positive adaptation, and since we have found a way of adapting without evolving we have limited our evolution... And we do this on purpose, with a purpose whether we understand evolution or not...

Did you know that human beings begin life as human beings and through their culture become sub human, or inhuman...Figure that out...
0 Replies
 
QuinticNon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 05:00 pm
@dan b,
Evolution is much more than change.

Change takes place without Language... i.e. erosion, freezing, radioactivity... no code required.

If those things evolved, then we would note a different kind of erosion, or freezing, or radioactivity that took place in the distant past, but no longer exist. We would have different types of erosion, freezing, and radioactivity in our current time than the types that existed long ago... but we don't. They're exactly the same now as they were then.

But Life, and anything else with code, evolves. That's because code is always a representation of a thought from a mind. As that thought passes from one mind to the next, it evolves, picking up new additional thoughts from the minds it passes through. By the time my thought moves from me to you, and then another, and another... it becomes a different thought than the one originally transmitted upon the code that originally represented it.

Proof of this lies in the fact you will use a different code to reply back, even if you completely agree. You will not simply cut, copy, paste my original thought back to me. You will add to it, forcing it to evolve, thus becoming a new thought shared between us. It will never be the same original thought ever again.

Code always represent thoughts from a mind. And one big difference between thought and chaos is that chaos does not duplicate itself just by looking at it. Thoughts are duplicated just by looking at them. Now you have my thoughts along with me. I'm sure to duplicate yours sent back... at the very moment I view your reply. The duplication takes place in the mind. Mind doesn't duplicate chaos.

---------- Post added 02-02-2010 at 05:04 PM ----------

Fido;124478 wrote:
Did you know that human beings begin life as human beings and through their culture become sub human, or inhuman...Figure that out...


I like that Fido.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 07:25 pm
@QuinticNon,
QuinticNon;124485 wrote:
Evolution is much more than change.

Change takes place without Language... i.e. erosion, freezing, radioactivity... no code required.

If those things evolved, then we would note a different kind of erosion, or freezing, or radioactivity that took place in the distant past, but no longer exist. We would have different types of erosion, freezing, and radioactivity in our current time than the types that existed long ago... but we don't. They're exactly the same now as they were then.

But Life, and anything else with code, evolves. That's because code is always a representation of a thought from a mind. As that thought passes from one mind to the next, it evolves, picking up new additional thoughts from the minds it passes through. By the time my thought moves from me to you, and then another, and another... it becomes a different thought than the one originally transmitted upon the code that originally represented it.

Proof of this lies in the fact you will use a different code to reply back, even if you completely agree. You will not simply cut, copy, paste my original thought back to me. You will add to it, forcing it to evolve, thus becoming a new thought shared between us. It will never be the same original thought ever again.

Code always represent thoughts from a mind. And one big difference between thought and chaos is that chaos does not duplicate itself just by looking at it. Thoughts are duplicated just by looking at them. Now you have my thoughts along with me. I'm sure to duplicate yours sent back... at the very moment I view your reply. The duplication takes place in the mind. Mind doesn't duplicate chaos.

---------- Post added 02-02-2010 at 05:04 PM ----------



I like that Fido.


Thanks for the like
memester
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 07:54 pm
@QuinticNon,
QuinticNon;124485 wrote:
Evolution is much more than change.

Change takes place without Language... i.e. erosion, freezing, radioactivity... no code required.
that's right....just to show one simple reason why no code is required for change.
there's no code required to delete or mix up coded or other data, eh ? bang, part of data gone . change. evolution. I can delete some data in a sentence, making it different.
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 08:02 pm
@Fido,
Heard this on NPR: a certain whale hears the song of another... he repeats it back and adds on a phrase... the next whale hears this and repeats, adding on a phrase. This continues, each whale expanding the song until at the end of the season, all the whales sing the whole song and then go for several months without singing.

At the beginning of the next season, all the whales start by singing last year's song in its entirety.

It's been noted that human language has rhythm and tone like music.
0 Replies
 
QuinticNon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 08:06 pm
@memester,
memester;124521 wrote:
that's right....just to show one simple reason why no code is required for change.
there's no code required to delete or mix up coded or other data, eh ? bang, part of data gone . change. evolution. I can delete some data in a sentence, making it different.


I'm confused. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? What do you mean by "no code required to delete"? What do you think "delete" is? It wouldn't delete unless it was encoded to delete.

---------- Post added 02-02-2010 at 08:10 PM ----------

Arjuna;124522 wrote:
It's been noted that human language has rhythm and tone like music.


Music is a language. It can be represented in many different ways. That's one of the qualifiers for Language. The rhythm and tone of language is called cadence and inflection. All spoken languages have it. It's harder with written language but not impossible.

Thanks for that info on whale song though. I often use whale song to support my arguments. Do you have a link to that research? I'm very interested.
memester
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 09:03 pm
@QuinticNon,
QuinticNon;124523 wrote:
I'm confused. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? What do you mean by "no code required to delete"? What do you think "delete" is? It wouldn't delete unless it was encoded to delete.
disagreeing on more than one level.
On the superficial level;
No code is required to delete data...a magnetic field can wipe a recording, right ? a scissors can cut a tape.
QuinticNon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 09:36 pm
@memester,
memester;124531 wrote:
No code is required to delete data.. a magnetic field can wipe a hard drive, right ?


Well, that's a bit of a loaded question... a good one though. Our choice of words is crucial to this discussion. Data is a form of code. They are both material objects located at a specific coordinate in space/time. They are physical things.

So, the simple answer is actually "yes". Wiping a hard drive is the same as destroying data. But... destroying data is not the same thing as destroying Information. Information is non physical. It is immaterial, and always a product from a mind. Data only represents Information. Data represents the thoughts from a mind just like my words here are representing the thoughts from my mind. Data is not the same as Information. And we have no evidence to suggest that destroying a hard drive can also destroy the immaterial thoughts from a mind. It's the Information that really counts. The medium is not the message.
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 09:46 pm
@dan b,
Fido;118106 wrote:
Maybe they haven't got much to say, or to understand...Maybe everything they say is contextual, which would make sense given the range messages could travel in water, so the mind could filter out all messages not making sense within the context of what was going on at the moment...What if, to communicate we always had to say something relevant, and not for entertainment value...I pity the dolphins...No matter what, they do not want to hear what we have to say....




QuinticNon;120073 wrote:
There is a great deal of progress in this research. My personal favorite is a system of 12"x12" thin aluminum sheets with sand poured on top. The recorded Dolphin squawk is played in a speaker underneath the aluminum sheet. This causes the sheet to vibrate and the sand forms a symbol of the sound. No, symbols are not the same as patterns.

We then scan those symbols and use them to form an alphabet for the dolphin. Once we have a full alphabetical representation of dolphin language, then we may be capable of understanding and thus communicating with them. These symbols are forming consistently among numerous dolphins, and are completely associated with the behavior of the dolphin as they are being uttered. They are recorded video and sound. Certain consistent conceptual representations are forming in the vibrating sand.

There are dozens of youtube videos on many different research. Do a search for "Dolphin Communication".


just wanted to say cool about both these quotes. And Fido if that's the case I'm not sure I pity the dolphins as much as I admire that difference. Though I wish there was a way to break that barrier.

And on recent topic

Let us consider than when talking about magnetic fields and erosion or other natural phenomena, it is possible to consider those actions as governed by code as well considering they are all constructs of the physical laws of the universe. Mathematics itself could be seen as a language I suppose. Or perhaps rather mathematics is constructed to resemble the natural phenomena of the universe, a translation of sorts.
QuinticNon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 09:55 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;124537 wrote:
Let us consider than when talking about magnetic fields and erosion or other natural phenomena, it is possible to consider those actions as governed by code as well considering they are all constructs of the physical laws of the universe.


Not quite how it works. Code requires a transmitter. In the case of dolphins, the dolphins are the transmitter. There are many, many other requirements beyond transmitter for something to be classified as code. DNA fulfills those requirements. That's why we call it the Genetic Code.

Nothing from Chaos qualifies as code. SETI would be out of business real quick if the universe was transmitting a signal from Chaos. Remember, SETI is not looking for life. They are looking for a genuine codified signal against the background of noise in the cosmos. They know where there be code, there must also be an author.

Amperage;124537 wrote:
Mathematics itself could be seen as a language I suppose. Or perhaps rather mathematics is constructed to resemble the natural phenomena of the universe, a translation of sorts.


Mathematics is a tool. All languages are tools. Mathematics and all languages are tools used to describe observable phenomenon. It's not a translation. It's a description.
0 Replies
 
memester
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2010 12:16 am
@QuinticNon,
QuinticNon;124534 wrote:
Well, that's a bit of a loaded question... a good one though. Our choice of words is crucial to this discussion. Data is a form of code. They are both material objects located at a specific coordinate in space/time. They are physical things.

So, the simple answer is actually "yes". Wiping a hard drive is the same as destroying data. But... destroying data is not the same thing as destroying Information. Information is non physical. It is immaterial, and always a product from a mind. Data only represents Information. Data represents the thoughts from a mind just like my words here are representing the thoughts from my mind. Data is not the same as Information. And we have no evidence to suggest that destroying a hard drive can also destroy the immaterial thoughts from a mind. It's the Information that really counts. The medium is not the message.


whatever way you wish to define DNA - as code, or language - or anything else, DNA can be damaged or cut, denatured etc etc and obviously, this is a kind of destruction or removal not by code but by radiation, chemicals, or micro scissors if necessary. Take a piece out, or warp it join it together, whatever...you got change and not necessarily by code, at all .

The change was not done by code, but the DNA was affected. The molecule was affected.
QuinticNon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2010 12:32 am
@memester,
memester;124574 wrote:
whatever way you wish to define DNA - as code, or language - or anything else...


I didn't define DNA. Watson and Crick did, originally. Hubert Yockey discovered it as a code base primarily upon the contributions of Gamow and Shannon.

memester;124574 wrote:
DNA can be damaged or cut, denatured etc etc and obviously, this is a kind of destruction or removal not by code but by radiation, chemicals, or micro scissors if necessary.


Yes, absolutely.

memester;124574 wrote:
Take a piece out, or warp it join it together, whatever...you got change and not necessarily by code, at all .


Sure. There is change. But there is no Evolution. What you speak of is destruction. Evolution doesn't work from destruction. Evolution works with positive mutation.

Big difference between Change and Evolution.

memester;124574 wrote:
The change was not done by code, but the DNA was affected. The molecule was affected.


Sure it was affected. That type of affect leads to extinction... not Evolution.

___________________________________


BTW... I've already agreed with you earlier. I said yes, wiping a hard drive is the same as destroying the data. No code required. I'm unsure of what point you're trying to promote further here.
memester
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2010 12:36 am
@QuinticNon,
Sure. There is change. But there is no Evolution. What you speak of is destruction. Evolution doesn't work from destruction. Evolution works with positive mutation.[/quote]And what is a positive mutation ? It's impossible that only beneficial mutations exist.
Quote:


Big difference between Change and Evolution.
not really
Quote:

Sure it was affected. That type of affect leads to extinction... not Evolution.
why must it lead to extinction ? It even leads to babies. join snip.
Quote:
In humans, this process starts at conception when maternal and paternal DNA strands join together at random points in their sequence(1). Enzymes such as T7 endonuclease 1 are then responsible for severing the strands at this junction, thus creating a third, unique DNA sequence for the offspring.
Faculty of Biological Sciences | Research Bulletin

Even if so ( it is not so), extinction of some carrying that DNA, that is part of Evolution. Surely, Evolution does lead to an extinction in the niche, in most cases.
 

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