The efficiency of hell.

"There is a saying, the doors of hell are locked on the inside. I think this is true. It represents a state of deprivation and torment which those who dwell there have chosen. It is not imposed, it is selected."


"I don't know how many times I have to say it but this makes absolutely no sense at all. " -Krumple

It makes sense because he isn't talking about Hell as an actual place but as a metaphor. Being trapped inside your own evil self with all your personal demons, being the only one with a key to unlock your (brain)cell. That is Hell. Or at least, that's the idea.

Once again, doesn't make any sense to me.

I understand the metaphor but the comfort of misery leads one to never seek escape from depression. If you feel it hopeless to escape, who ever goes looking for a way out?

"the comfort of misery leads one to never seek escape from depression."

Since when is misery comfortable?
And I'm not talking about depression. I was talking about evil people who do evil things. We are all the captains of our souls. Only you can free yourself from evil. That's the meaning...Hell is being stuck as yourself when not even you can look into your eyes and be proud of yourself.

So, I think we've established that the idea of hell is an effective thing. For example: Say a women's husband gets murdered. She loved her husband. I would assume that the main "positive" thought that could keep her sane and maybe somewhat happy is, "That guy's going to hell, the guy who murdered my husband." So, it's sort of an invisible system of justice, for some. For others, heaven and hell serve as parental figures. Heaven being the mom, who spoils you when she see's you improving, or doing something good. Hell, the father who punishes you. It's effective, and might even keep society at a slightly civilized pace.

But my actual question got no controversy from all who answered. I guess we're all on the same page here? Does the hell that most people believe in contradict with their being a god by what he is explained as? All-loving? Of course, their are many things that question god's all-loving-ness, but I've heard Christians come up with things like, "God doesn't answer your prayers sometimes because he wants you to learn something. He wants you to endure hardships, so you can appreciate the good life. He wants.. He wants... (etc..)

But the old fasioned, "burning eternally" hell, can only be a vengeance for people with a secure belief of god, and god himself. This leads me to the question, "Does God love you, if you don't believe in him?" What if you've never heard of Christianity? Will God forgive you, and send you to heaven? A bunch of questions that can't really be answered by anyone excpet for God himself.

Actually to level with you all, one of the reasons I walked away from the Christian church was because of the idea of eternal damnation. Later on I learned about Calvin's doctrine of predestination. It seemed to me to imply that God must have created souls who he knew were destined for eternal hellfire. I could never accept that. I still don't believe in eternal damnation, and I never will.

Another point. When at University, I had a realisation that I called 'Beyond Reward and Punishment'. At the time, I was reading B.F. Skinners' 'Beyond Freedom and Dignity' which in my eyes is one of the worst books, by one of the most sinister people, in recent history. I was also reading a lot of Buddhism and practising meditation. One day I had this realisation that the very idea of 'reward and punishment' is what I called 'the law of the flesh'. Really it is like the impulse of a bacteria to move towards light and nutrients, and away from cold, dark or poisonous places. All creatures will do that, and insofar as we are creatures, we will do that also. So I began to think a lot of what goes on in religion is really just this principle, writ large. It has been used as a carrot and stick to beat the populace, ever since civilization begun. Hence: 'beyond reward and punishment' is understanding this principle and moving beyond it.

But I really don't think of that has anything to do with Jesus' actual teaching. 'Kingdom of Heaven' is not really the eternal reward for being a Mr Goody Two-Shoes and always cleaning up your room, and so on. It is a condition beyond that which most people will ever realise. And it has no opposite. Where Jesus is, there is no hell, or the unreality of hell becomes abundantly clear to him.

But I think this has been lost to Christian doctrine, on the whole. Mosly Christianity is still commited to the Heaven=reward Hell=punishment model. It is understandable, but I think entirely mistaken.

In my world, 'God' (supreme principle, ultimate being) doesn't punish anybody. People bring about their own hell by being selfish, deluded, greedy, hateful, and so on. They are completely the author of their own destiny. Sure - accidents happen. There is misfortune as well. The righteous can suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. Life is like that. Nobody was promised a rose garden.

That said, I am convinced hell is real. It is not eternal, but I am sure a lot of the traditional imagery of hell, which is very consistent from all the ancient world, is based on a reality. But once you understand its nature and what drives it, and it begins to loose its hold on you, then there is nothing to fear from it, or anything.

That is my input on hell.

The concept of hell is a man made creation. Specifically for the purpose of the religion using it to induce fear into people so they will attend their church and give their money as well. There is NO HELL. But, there is Karma or amends. It works through two methods. One is the equal and opposite reaction. You do something to someone and that lifeform suffers in some way, you will have something happen to you to balance out the act. Or you can release yourself from Karma by finding your divinity and practicing love, acceptance/forgiveness and a caring for all life continuously. As you would see by behaving this way you are not capable of causing suffering so no karma.

Hello, Awareness, I notice you have joined the forum, and thanks for contributing!

You seem awfully certain there is no hell. BUt I am not so sure. If you committed very large-scale crimes, such as becoming a brutal military dictator and driving hundreds of thousands of people to an awful death, then what on earth could 'balance out the act'?

FYI, my conception of hell is that you are not being punished by God, but experiencing the consequences of your actions.

I see Hell as a practical way of threatening people into doing what they'r supposed to do, behave!

I do believe in hell, but the way you've portrayed it here is just an exposition of corrupted western (mainly protestant) christian teachings. Have you never read any of the allegorical stuff about the myth of ur at the end of republic?

Dostoyevsky is also fascinating on the subject, but first let me give you the parable of dives and lazarus for those of you not familiar with it:

Luke 16:19-34 [INDENT] There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores, Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom:

And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.

And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither.

And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren, That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments.

And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.

And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.
[/INDENT]

This is from 'The brothers karamazov' by fyodor dostoyevsky, a section from the chapter entitled 'from the life of the elder zosima':

[CENTER](i) Of Hell and Hell Fire, a Mystic Reflection.[/CENTER]
Fathers and teachers, I ponder, "What is hell?" I maintain that it is the suffering of being unable to love. Once in infinite existence, immeasurable in time and space, a spiritual creature was given on his coming to earth the power of saying, "I am and I love." Once, only once, there was given him a moment of active lifting love, and for that was earthly life given him, and with it times and seasons. And that happy creature rejected the priceless gift, prized it and loved it not, scorned it and remained callous. Such a one, having left the earth, sees Abraham's bosom and talks with Abraham as we are told in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, and beholds heaven and can go up to the Lord. But that is just his torment, to rise up to the Lord without ever having loved, to be brought close to those who have loved when he has despised their love. For he sees clearly and says to himself, "Now I have understanding, and though I now thirst to love, there will be nothing great, no sacrifice in my love, for my earthly life is over, and Abraham will not come even with a drop of living water (that is the gift of earthly active life) to cool the fiery thirst of spiritual love which burns in me now, though I despised it on earth; there is no more life for me and will be no more time! Even though I would gladly give my life for others, it can never be, for that life is passed which can be sacrificed for love, and now there is a gulf fixed between that life and this existence."
They talk of hell fire in the material sense. I don't go into that mystery and I shun it. But I think if there were fire in material sense, they would be glad of it, for I imagine that in material agony, their still greater spiritual agony would be forgotten for a moment. Moreover, that spiritual agony cannot be taken from them, for that suffering is not external but within them. And if it could be taken from them, I think it would be bitterer still for the unhappy creatures. For even if the righteous in Paradise forgave them, beholding their torments, and called them up to heaven in their infinite love, they would only multiply their torments, for they would arouse in them still more keenly a flaming thirst for responsive, active and grateful love which is now impossible. In the timidity of my heart I imagine, however, that the very recognition of this impossibility would serve at last to console them. For accepting the love of the righteous together with the impossibility of repaying it, by this submissiveness and the effect of this humility, they will attain at last, as it were, to a certain semblance of that active love which they scorned in life, to something like its outward expression... I am sorry, friends and brothers, that I cannot express this clearly. But woe to those who have slain themselves on earth, woe to the suicides! I believe that there can be none more miserable than they. They tell us that it is a sin to pray for them and outwardly the Church, as it were, renounces them, but in my secret heart I believe that we may pray even for them. Love can never be an offence to Christ. For such as those I have prayed inwardly all my life, I confess it, fathers and teachers, and even now I pray for them every day.
Oh, there are some who remain proud and fierce even in hell, in spite of their certain knowledge and contemplation of the absolute truth; there are some fearful ones who have given themselves over to Satan and his proud spirit entirely. For such, hell is voluntary and ever consuming; they are tortured by their own choice. For they have cursed themselves, cursing God and life. They live upon their vindictive pride like a starving man in the desert sucking blood out of his own body. But they are never satisfied, and they refuse forgiveness, they curse God Who calls them. They cannot behold the living God without hatred, and they cry out that the God of life should be annihilated, that God should destroy Himself and His own creation. And they will burn in the fire of their own wrath for ever and yearn for death and annihilation. But they will not attain to death....