The efficiency of hell.

What ever it is will seem like a vacation... At least we won't have to put up with the same old bullshet...

Hell- a state on anguished existence separated from god.
Current Catholic theology. Limbo has been abolished. Purgatory is under construction.
Heaven is presumbly a state of unremitted bliss in the presence of god.
They are trying to find a way for non Catholics to avoid hell in the interest of ecumenical or interfaith dialogue

Of course, i'd be honored.

There is a saying, the doors of hell are locked on the inside. I think this is true. It represents a state of deprivation and torment which those who dwell there have chosen. It is not imposed, it is selected.

Right. Some people (like my sister) don't understand that Hell and Heaven are metaphors for your own personal relationship with 'god'. They seem to think that the universe and Earth were actually created in 7 days.
All it takes is a little bit of experience with good literature to be able to read the Bible and understand the allegorical meaning.

It's interesting that hell is not even explicitly described within the Bible. Hell, as we understand it today, is an interpretation of some vague references about eternal damnation.

Exactly. So many people operate under false pretenses based in thousands of years old writings and the belief-systems of times long since past.
But I don't care what people believe, so long as they don't tell me about it and get all preachy. Religions are all different, but they all have the same purpose (in my opinion), and they all are equally viable vehicles of consciousness expansion.
I just wish so many people weren't crazed lunatics about their faiths, god damn zealots.

But what I'm saying is that, in this case, this isn't even something which is contained within one of the thousand year old writings. It was a complete fabrication, from I hear, the Roman Catholic Church.



A vehicle of consciousness expansion? What on earth does this mean?



Well, that would surely help :bigsmile:

A lot of what goes on in religion is the projection of unconconscious fears and desires writ large on the canvas of life.

That is why self-knowledge is the first step to freedom.

I don't know what you mean by "self-knowledge", but if you mean that critically thinking is a good thing, I agree!

remember the inscription over the entrance to the dwelling of the Oracle of Delphi: 'Man know thyself'. It has been foundational to Western philosophy ever since, but often neglected. Very much a matter of critical thinking (as opposed to negative self-talk!)

Eh, now I think you're getting a little too cryptic. Teaching our children to critically think is what I'm talking about.

There's a fine line between teaching critical thinking and propaganda. The perennial 'what to think' vs 'how to think' distinction. Critical thinking is very important of course. But at the same time, in todays world there are many diametrically opposed viewpoints, especially in regards to religous ideas. I suppose, form the critical viewpoint, I would like to see children exposed to information about world religions, not just their own; and also be taught how to think critically about their own; but not taught that 'religious thinking is a relic of a bygone age'.

Self-knowledge is a hard thing to acquire, or communicate. Personally i don't think it recieved much attention in today's world, unless you are lucky enough to have a teacher who knows what it means. But a basic element is to understand why you think in the way you do, to be honest enough to really desconstruct your own prejudices and assumptions.

"A vehicle of consciousness expansion? What on earth does this mean?"

A vehicle is like...a means to an end. Expanding your consciousness is...difficult to explain I guess.
It's kind of like...when you see the same old picture in a brand new frame.
When it happens to you, you'll know it.

You will find not many people know what 'states of consciousness' means.

We're not in the 60's any more....

I don't know how many times I have to say it but this makes absolutely no sense at all.

Basically it is like saying, if you put your hand into fire, it is not the fire that burns your hand it is your choice of putting your hand into the fire which causes the burning. No, it is the fire that causes the burn.

What am I saying? There is something that causes one to descend to hell because it is a response to a choice that one has made. Who designed the response? God does, therefore it is by default god who sends you to hell because that is the designed response to the choice.

The ONLY way it could be YOUR own doing and yours alone is that god plays absolutely no part in the response nor the fabrication of the choice being made. So in other words you make up the existence of hell completely and utterly by your own doing. In a sense make believe. But that wouldn't work because who would imagine themselves being tormented? No one even wants to admit they do anything wrong period, so why would they all of a sudden feel the need to torture themselves for the rest of time for some stupid choice?

Let's get to the actual reality of this theology. It is a scare tactic to force you into submission to the rules and laws of the religious doctrine. It holds over your head an entity by which you can not protest nor threaten so the law can not be challenged. Submit or face the wrath of guilt we will place upon you. In other words, hand all your freedom, and monetary power over to us and be the sheep that you should be.

If I am a defective part then by all means toss me into the recycle bin. I am not afraid of fairy tales and that is what most religious dogma is.

Well all our conceptions change and religous conceptions are no different.
The divine right of kings gave way to social contract theory.
Newtonian mechanics gave way to Einsteinian relativity.
Hell as a place of eternal torment has given way too.
Not to many churches threaten their members with eternal hellfire and damnation if they dont tithe because the members dont believe it and wont stand for it.
The official Catholic doctrine of hell is a state of angusihed existence separated (volutarily some say) from god.
The notion of sin is alienation or separation from god and gods will.

You are right; in medieval Europe threats of eternity in hell and excommunication, the keys to the kingdom were used to secure the power of the church and the obedience of the popualtion. The church no longer has that kind of power and that story no longer sells.

Okay, well what exactly is being in or not in gods presence suppose to do? Are we in his presence currently or are we not? What exactly happens when you are not, and what exactly happens when you are? Is there a noticeable difference?

To me it sounds like all you really did was soften it up a little. Instead of a firey torment, you just don't get to shake hands and get a front row seat to all the cool events. Instead you have to sit outside the arena and are tormented by the thoughts of all the fun all those people inside are having.

To be honest too. Life has some really great things about it. But even how great they are will ultimately become a source of misery if I always had them. Life has it's value system because things are finite. Just look at how we take people for granted even within a short period of time. Just imagine how much we would take them for granted if we had them for ever? It is by this potential for loss where the beauty for it arises.

If the sun was always setting, people would start asking,

"What is so special about a sunset?"

So is it going to be like this?

It's like meeting some movie star in which you are star struck. Just the thought of them makes you nervous. Well one day you happen to run into your favorite movie star while out to grab some ice cream. You are so overwelmed by the experience you are completely beside yourself. So the movie star invites you out to a ball game. Amazed and excited you would never refuse such an offer. Of course you go to the game.

Let's change it.

It's like meeting god in which you are star struck. Just the thought of god makes you nervous. Well one day you happen to die and you come before the presence of god. You are so overwhelmed by the experience you are completely beside yourself. So god invites you out to a ball game. Amazed and excited you say, "Hell yeah." Of course you go to the game.

After a year, or two billion years, do you think your star struckness would still be there? No it would fade. It would become no big deal.

Yeah I go to the game all the time with Jack Nicholson, so what? At first it was a little intimidating but now he is just like any other person. We chat, we joke, I buy him a hotdog and he makes fun of me.

I have lived in a sort of emotional hell most of my life, and most of it was not self imposed...We do not live in a good society, and a user friendly society... Dog eat Dog could be our national motto...My hell went right back to my earliest years, that I only by accident found my way back from... And still the damage continues some fifty years later, and may have helped me to lose my wife, who is a fabulous beautiful person, and the breaking of my family...One should consider in every conscious act how much of unconscious motivations may be at work...People should consider the damage they may do to have their sense of well being...

State of mind does effect how we regard our physical state, don't you think? A confused state of mind would have a hard time understanding his physical being and what is heaven/good/right and what is hell/bad/wrong. Regarding them as remote destinations makes it difficult to associate either to our physical existence and until we do, our physical being remains in limbo (a place between) or purgatory.



Those are just extreme, physical manifestations of one's ability to deal with pain; and yes pain is a form of hell but the mental manifestations do far more damage to our physical being and how we perceive what the senses are allowing us to feel. Some can mentally shut those feelings down and by doing that lose all sense of better and just learn to deal with the pain.

Inflicting pain on ones self is nothing new. Just don't do it to others. People hurt themselves far more than they do others and the hell of it is, they don't know they are doing it. They do that because there is no heaven they can conceive in the physical reality they find themselves in. So what the hell, either endure it or make the most of it creating a paradox and stuck in limbo.



"Good" is such a relative term it is indeed difficult to define what good is. How can fearing something make one worthy of it? Perhaps there is some truth to the more we fear the more likely that we fear will do us harm. I don't think worthy has anything to do with it. I think we can find better answers in trying to eliminate that which makes us afraid. We just need to be in agreement as to what "that" is.



Ha, outstanding statement. I don't think god created it, I think hell is man's own creation and it is those who have done the most damage are the philosophers in an effort to undo what they did prior to their being so philosophical. Of course you have to believe in your eternal presence to understand that. And I do.

To step aside just a moment when we think of pain, I think it fair to say the word is associated with physical pain more than mental anguish; yet that is definitely...................a pain. When my body is in a painful state not due to external reason that can be noted, I regard the body as "making adjustments", like remodeling a house. When we make the old new again there is a lot of banging and noise going on to fix up that which is worn out or eroded. Of course that can be applied in many contexts, but if you are able to associate it that way, it relieves any mental worry that pain might cause and much easier to endure and subsequently the body heals. Mind over matter. "Do your work, I don't mind..................bang away, ha!

Like a high fever. Something is wrong and the body is "working like hell" to fix it to the point of shutting it down (coma) to do so. That can also be applied to "mental states" as well as those who become mentally detached from this reality such a stoicism is often referred as. Philosophers were not popular people and live in seclusion for the most part. There minds worked feverishly to fix man's problems. Of course there is that selfish nature that can be understood as they were only trying to validate their own lot in life to relieve guilt and that is not philosophy but could be conceive as such.

In other words those who some consider philosophers.....................are not, just smart asses who think they know it all. Some here are of that nature and feel no one knows more than they and they might consider me that. For those, just let me say this; there is a hell of a lot that I don't know; but what I do know, I effort to find out why I know it and what good that can offer and why they think as they do and the rationalizations that sustain them.

To do that one has to experience both sides of the equation the good and the bad (the heaven and the hell of it), and in doing that one will find a balance and in offering it to others will prevent them from having to experience both sides and not have to rationalize so god damned much.

So Quinn, yes there is an efficiency to hell in that respect if we can indeed learn from it. Unfortunately most, sadly, become accustom to it.

William