I am Immortal.

"Sweet Helen, make me immortal (immoral?) with a kiss" Christopher Marlowe.

I don't know. But I invite you to give it a try. :-)
Samm

You honestly "don't know"? You really think consciousness has no spatial properties?

I eat no beans, or Logos (Greek for legumes). I stick to steak.

Logos (pronounced /ˈloʊɡɒs/ or /ˈlɒgɒs/; Greek λόγος logos) is an important term in philosophy, analytical psychology, rhetoric and religion. Originally a word meaning "word," "account," or "reason,"[1] it became a technical term in philosophy, beginning with Heraclitus (ca. 535-475 BC), who used the term for the principle of order and knowledge in the universe.[2]
The sophists used the term to mean discourse, and Aristotle applied the term to rational discourse. The Stoic philosophers identified the term with the divine animating principle pervading the universe. After Judaism came under Hellenistic influence, Philo (ca. 20 BC-40 AD) adopted the term into Jewish philosophy.[3] The Gospel of John identifies the Logos, through which all things are made, as divine (theos),[4] and further identifies Jesus as the incarnation of the Logos.
In current use, Logos may refer to any of these senses. Outside academic discussions, the Christian sense, identifying Jesus with the Word of God, is perhaps the most common use.

I don't know. But I invite you to give it a try. :-)
Samm

You honestly "don't know"? You really think consciousness has no spatial properties?

I agree. Consciousness is spatial, essentially spatial. As it is impossible to not think space, even if it is empty space.

That's right, Scotty. Consciousness itself has no spatial properties. The experiences of which we are conscious may have spatial properties, but the consciousness, the observer of our human existence, does not exist in space.

Samm

Hi SAMM,

You are immortal, your body is constructed out of indestructible energy and your soul is a fragment of the primordial godbeing which can never ever cease to exist

OOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!! The primordial vibration of the universe

But when you think space, space is the object of your experience, your thoughts, while consciousness is the subject of your experience, that which thinks of space. The subjective element of experiencing, the observer, that-which-experiences, which I identify as consciousness, does not exist in space and therefore has no spatial properties or attributes in itself.

Samm

Well sure, Alan, and so are you immortal in the eyes of God. But my friends and family shall miss my miserable butt when my immortal soul passes beyond this incarnation. I hope I may count you among them.

Samm

I feel you have still not addressed my example. If I pull out my brain, would I still be conscious? Is that not a common sense example that consciousness is tied in with spatial properties? Even if spatial properties are the result of something else.

Well Scotty, if you pull out your own brain it will be remarkable if still quite fatal accomplishment which all the Samurais in our world will jealously admire. It is my belief that you will remain conscious, but the bond between your consciousness and your body will be broken and you will have no further consciousness of this world we share together. While the brain and body are mortal forms, I believe that the consciousness incarnated in the body, largely via the brain, that consciousness is not innately mortal. I believe it is capable of incarnating (bonding) with another form in another shared realm of being like this world. But again that is just my belief. Once the bond is broken between the internal being and its manifest form, the consciousness may dim into oblivion like an apple fallen from the tree. Who knows?

Samm

That's along the lines of what I thought you'd say. "Who knows?" That's my point. I see no reason to speculate beyond my ability to experience. I know that brain death occurs and after that my experience of that person is gone. So while I am not saying you are wrong, I see no reason to suspect you are right.

That's along the lines of what I thought you'd say. "Who knows?" That's my point. I see no reason to speculate beyond my ability to experience. I know that brain death occurs and after that my experience of that person is gone. So while I am not saying you are wrong, I see no reason to suspect you are right.

If you see no reason to speculate beyond experience, yet accept that consciousness exists IN space, that it occupies space, show me where your consciousness is. Where is the observer of all your experiences, your sensory perceptions, thoughts, memories, dreams, intuitions, emotions, desires, everything that impacts as one upon your conscious experience? I think you are speculating, and buying into other people's speculations a lot more than you may think.

It makes no difference whether consciousness survives the death of the physical body or not, that is not my argument. I simply argue that existence is not restricted to space and time, therefore consciousness may exist outside of space since it does not appear to exist in the extended dimensions of space. Hard-nosed materialists and behaviorists speculate about its existence here and/or there in the brain, but they have no conclusive evidence, and the mystery of consciousness remains their greatest challenge.

Samm

I am the observer of all of my experiences, and while I do not feel my brain function, I know that if you mess with a person's brain, you mess with their consciousness. Next time you go to sleep, tell me where your consciousness goes.

Seriously, am I to take your word that consciousness exists out of time and space or should I base my position off of decades of research into brain functionality?

Take a physical drug and what happens? You have an altered state of conscoiusness. How would this be possible if consciousness existed outside of time and space?

I am happy to entertain idealism or solipsism, but that says time and space are illusions, you are arguing against my experience, not saying it is an illusion.

It is something you have chosen to believe.

Samm

I am, as are we all, limited by assumptions. I am perfectly willing to admit this is something I have chosen to believe, but with good reason. I am using an Ockham's Razor approach, and so far I have found no reason to think consciousness is more than the sum of our experience, and the faculties we interpret and store those experiences in.

Give me a reason to think consciousness exists outside of space?

Because there is no sign of something we can label "consciousness" inside space, extended in spatial dimensions, visible as a part of our bodies. If you think the brain is consciousness, then show me where consciousness occurs in the brain? (Then publish your work quickly, because you'll be the first person able to locate consciousness in the brain.)

Are you able to conceive of existence outside of space and extention? The universe brought space-time into being with its own birth. So what existed prior to the universe was outside of space and time. Can you conceive that? If you're unable to conceive of anything other than matter and energy, your understanding will be limited by your imagination. In that case, I can be of no help to you.

Samm

I ask again, where does your consciousness go when you sleep?

Show you where consciousness exists in the brain? What a curious strawman.

I can conceive of things that appear separate from matter and energy. I do not think of my thoughts as being "material". However, this does not show anything either way, we have no sensory organs in the brain afterall, so how would you expect someone to "experience" the functioning of the brain besides the act of using it?

All I see is negative evidence, not very convincing so far...

The "birth" of the universe is speculation, and you also assume something had to exist before the universe.

I have quite an imagination, but until you give me reason to think there is something more than matter/energy, I leave my imagination where it belongs, with the "what ifs". Sure it is possible, what you've said, it is possible there exists something outside of space-time, it is possible consciousness exists outside of space, but possibility is not a valid justification for a belief.

Well you will get no more than belief because science cannot address what it cannot measure. Science cannot reach outside of space or time except in its theories. So you will have to continue believing that consciousness is just a function of the brain.

My assumption that "something had to exist before the universe" is based upon the cosmological model currently popular and proven by universal expansion and the CMB of about three degrees Kelvin. It says that space-time began with the universe. If space-time began with the universe, then the initial condition from which the universe originated must have been outside of space-time. There must have been such an initial condition of existence or else it is necessary to suppose that the universe came from absolute nothing. Absolute nothing can have no properties or attributes, nor any causal efficacy by which to cause or explain the origin of the universe. It is therefore logical to conclude that the universe had its origin in some initial state of existence rather than from nothing. It is also logical to conclude that the initial state is independent of space-time since space-time is an innate property of the universe.

My consciousness doesn't go anywhere when I sleep. I am conscious of dreams, but often dreams are not remembered. Some sleep is believed to be dreamless. At such time there are no experiences impinging on my consciousness, and experience cannot occur without both, one who experiences and something that is experienced. As the sensory registers of the brain shut down, no experiences are available for consciousness to experience. It doesn't go anywhere. (Being outside of space, it cannot "go anywhere.")

Samm