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Logical explanation: why a god must exist

 
 
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2011 04:39 pm
@joefromchicago,
Even in your simplified answer, which I thank you for trying, I dont understand Smile how should we change the definition to make something that has a reason to be so, to be so just because?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2011 02:28 am
@Smileyrius,
Because to assert the logic of something which you define you just need internal coherence which in turn can be provided in the abstractness of a concept without really referring to any actual concrete thing...is that better now ?
0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2011 02:46 am
My apologies, but so far, I am understanding that if I change the definition of a word, I can change the application of any scientific theorum. It doesn't yet help me to see how any given thing can have no cause. I do work well however with examples if you have some to mind.

I tend to enjoy paddling in the shallow end of logic, for the deeper it gets, the easier it is to drown, and I sir, am not a strong swimmer.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2011 03:10 am
@Smileyrius,
So, lets say you would change your understanding or definition on Time for instance, since Cause and Effect imply a sequence in which one necessarily precedes the other, how would that end up, eh ?
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2011 03:45 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Rather than change the definition of the words within it, why not just disagree with the theory?

If time had a beginning, something will have caused it to begin, as something cannot occur from nothing by my understanding. The laws that time are set within and by design momentum, cause time to continue moving. The law is the cause, another second is the effect? Of course you are welcome to stop me if I make no sense, I am but an amatuer on the subject.

If however I changed my definition of time to a cream bun, I would enjoy it far more.

I can't wrap my head around the logic that one minute there is nothing and the next, bingo bango you have a universe, with laws and structures etc, all of this without anything to cause it to be so. My trouble is that it takes a fair bit of faith to assume that nothing caused nothing to become everything merely because we cannot quantify the cause.

I may have misunderstood your question, but then that is unlikely to be a new phenomena
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2011 09:17 am
@Smileyrius,
Smileyrius wrote:

Even in your simplified answer, which I thank you for trying, I dont understand Smile how should we change the definition to make something that has a reason to be so, to be so just because?

Why does anything have a "reason to be so?"
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2011 09:26 am
@Smileyrius,
Well but that´s an entirely different matter...I very much agree with you that nothing does n´t give rise to everything, its nonsense...in turn that does n´t change what as been said before...
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2011 09:37 am
@joefromchicago,
If to go and play a little bit with words I would rather say that things don´t have a reason to be, things make the reason from what they are...and that, to my understanding directly supports the timelessness of Truth...
...of course, one can go on the arrow of time, the 2 law of TD, and all that, just to make the opposite case...but then Truth is eternal...whatever state of affairs things have they have it...(even if it is a collection of states of affairs and excluded middle is to be removed)

It may be the case that something somehow potentially is here and there...to clarify same is to say, when there, to not here, or when where, to not there... however if something is simply to not be, then there´s nothing to make it be, neither here nor there...whatever is true is True.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Jan, 2011 07:30 pm
@HeroicOvenmitt,
I have been watching dvds on scientists and mathematicians. There was a telling accounts of famous scientists.

What are the odds of a farmer's son amounting to much when his father dies. This boy is sent to live with his grandmother. He is sickly and an average student. His stepfather sends him to college as he does want the boy to become a farmer. This average boy used to stare at the heavens a lot. This boy was Isaac Newton.

What are the odds of another sickly boy who was considered retarded as he learnt to speak very late. He was an average student. He went to university and wasn't special. He even said that he wished he wasn't born. After graduating from university he could not get a job. His father tried to get him a job at his friend's place. But he still was rejected. After his father died he had to get a job in a patent office. He was Albert Einstein.

It seems many famous mathematicians have similar stories. So odds don't amount to much as things can be upturned.

I hope that 1/0 = infinity may sound impossible but the improbable do happen.
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2011 05:27 am
@talk72000,
I love those accounts, I always use them to suggest that maybe there is hope for me after all. The problem you face though is that a bookie would only give you odds of 1/100-250 on that happening (estimation). extreme intelligence often also causes a lack of interest in secular education, and that lack of interest in turn causes under performance. Still considered improbable but no where near the realms that science determine it impossible by thier quantified theory of impossibility. Science itself has a threshold of odds where it considers something impossible, which from memory I believe is 1/10*50. Based on the odds of a single protein being formed being beyond that, I would not want to play those odds.

talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2011 01:45 pm
@Smileyrius,
You would be surprized how many "average" students made a serious mark on history. Dwight D. Eisenhower and Winston Churchill were among them. The great mathematician Riemann wasn't exactly an outstanding student. So you see Sir Francis Galton was on the wrong boat trying to identify 'geniuses' with his IQ tests. He only obtained high IQ geniuses that didn't produce any work of any importance except excel in those tests.
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jan, 2011 02:54 pm

because this god brought in his nemesis , evil

this is a war between the both of them

and we Humans are caught in the middle
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 09:10 am
@north,
You probably are a Da Vinci´s Code fan North...
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 09:31 am
@north,
Define Evil.
longfun
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 10:02 am
@Johnny Fresh,
You agree that nothing cannot create something, right?

No I do not agree.
Without "no-thing" you have no "space" to put some-thing in and no properties to emerge some-thing from.


Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 04:28 pm
@longfun,
ad it occurred to you that no-thing also implies no space ??? Rolling Eyes
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 08:54 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

You probably are a Da Vinci´s Code fan North...


never saw the movie and never read the book
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 08:58 pm
@Smileyrius,
Smileyrius wrote:

Define Evil.


that which is against the survival of man , spiritually
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2011 02:35 am
@north,
So as long one sticks with the "body" and leave the "soul" in peace, one can kill and slaughter away, all in the grace of the Lord...

"Evil" is just a "misreading" of the World around you and its ways from witch a high energetic state corrupts awareness and Conscience misguiding it towards destructive action...in a further even more abstract way can be simply resumed to an high state of energy in need of dissipation...

...think on that North, and leave angels and demons in the shelf...
0 Replies
 
longfun
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2011 03:32 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

ad it occurred to you that no-thing also implies no space ??? Rolling Eyes

Sure, but from our perspective no-thing is the only -thing having the potency to emerge any-thing (including any definable space), some-thing and stay no- thing at the same time.
It is all about properties.
 

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