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Why subjective theories are not science.

 
 
Brandi phil
 
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Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 08:06 pm
@Deckard,
Deckard;171900 wrote:
I think so. What's the sticking point? Falsifiability? I think Chomsky did work with empirical evidence of existing languages.

Falsifiability, yes. What empirical data are you talking about?
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 08:06 pm
@Deckard,
He did, however tranformational grammar (the attempt to codify a universal grammar) tended not to be falsifiable. They were too transformative. In order to make anything close to a semblance of a universal they had to make rules of grammar so broad that they were not applicable. Aside from that there were many many claims of bias. Such as Chomskyian transformational grammar had a very English syntactical base.
Brandi phil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 08:19 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead;171903 wrote:
He did, however tranformational grammar (the attempt to codify a universal grammar) tended not to be falsifiable. They were too transformative. In order to make anything close to a semblance of a universal they had to make rules of grammar so broad that they were not applicable. Aside from that there were many many claims of bias. Such as Chomskyian transformational grammar had a very English syntactical base.

One of the criticisms was that even if the theory were testable, say through unethical practices such as depriving a human of sound from conception, it would still be subjective-- that is, those doing the research could not observe empirically; they would have to infer from behavioral reactions. There isn't a way to empirically decipher and decode the input in the so-called language acquisition device. How objective would such tests need to be to satisfy these opponents?
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 08:24 pm
@Brandi phil,
Brandi;171909 wrote:
One of the criticisms was that even if the theory were testable, say through unethical practices such as depriving a human of sound from conception, it would still be subjective-- that is, those doing the research could not observe empirically; they would have to infer from behavioral reactions. There isn't a way to empirically decipher and decode the input in the so-called language acquisition device. How objective would such tests need to be to satisfy these opponents?


The task that the Chomskyians set for themselves was to prove that there was an LAD, not how it worked, They could do this with enough behavior testing and enough subjects being deprived of language during formative periods. They could not do this with children that suffered traumatic brain injury because they could not tell how exactly the brain injury would affect the natural process, as brain injury also can affect language skills in adults.
0 Replies
 
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 08:47 pm
@Brandi phil,
Brandi;171902 wrote:
Falsifiability, yes. What empirical data are you talking about?

Didn't he look at existing languages and noticed an overarching grammatical structure common to all languages. The languages themselves are the empirical data. Then he posits the universal grammar to explain all these commonalities between languages. But is the universal grammar falsifiable? Is there some experiment that could be run that would prove or disprove the existence of the grammar?

Well languages don't come around every day. Suppose some new language (call it Blackswanese) discovered in some remote jungle that was completely different and lacked the deep grammar that Chomsky found in other languages then this would disprove the theory. But is that likely to happen? No. So is it falsifiable? Well...

I'm not sure how this relates to subjectivity. A lot of psychological theories are very subjective (e.g. Freud and Jung) and don't really rely on empirical data much at all but I don't think Chomsky can be classed with these. Nor does Marx's class consciousness. which I mentioned in a previous post, have much direct bearing on this matter.
Brandi phil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 09:01 pm
@Deckard,
Deckard;171919 wrote:
Didn't he look at existing languages and noticed an overarching grammatical structure common to all languages. The languages themselves are the empirical data. Then he posits the universal grammar to explain all these commonalities between languages. But is the universal grammar falsifiable? Is there some experiment that could be run that would prove or disprove the existence of the grammar?

Well languages don't come around every day. Suppose some new language (call it Blackswanese) discovered in some remote jungle that was completely different and lacked the deep grammar that Chomsky found in other languages then this would disprove the theory. But is that likely to happen? No. So is it falsifiable? Well...

I'm not sure how this relates to subjectivity. A lot of psychological theories are very subjective (e.g. Freud and Jung) and don't really rely on empirical data much at all but I don't think Chomsky can be classed with these. Nor does Marx's class consciousness. which I mentioned in a previous post, have much direct bearing on this matter.


The theory seems circular to me, and maybe I am wrong, and not up with my logic. The theory predicts what has already been observed; that is, it is observed that people all have the innate ability to acquire language because all languages share a common underlying grammar. Then it explains that the reason why it is observed is because of the language acquisition device, and language acquisition device is the reason humans acquire language.

This article is very interesting. A Reporter at Large: The Interpreter : The New Yorker It seems as though someone may have discovered a language that has the potential to defy Chomsky's theory, which would then grant the theory testable.

I don't think that Chomsky's theory is on the level of subjectiveness as in Freud's psychoanalysis, but I think that in light of Popper's philosophy the little subjectiveness that Chomsky's theory has will not fly. I only wish I could convey what I am thinking. I want to say that it is analogous to trying to test consciousness. For example, to research consciousness, one would have to rely on his/her own consciousness to do so. I want to say that this is what the objectivists are trying to convey when they say the theory is too subjective to be considered science. But I can't quite wrap my mind around what they mean with the LAD
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 09:23 pm
@Brandi phil,
Brandi;171930 wrote:
The theory seems circular to me, and maybe I am wrong, and not up with my logic. The theory predicts what has already been observed; that is, it is observed that people all have the innate ability to acquire language because all languages share a common underlying grammar. Then it explains that the reason why it is observed is because of the language acquisition device, and language acquisition device is the reason humans acquire language.

This article is very interesting. A Reporter at Large: The Interpreter : The New Yorker It seems as though someone may have discovered a language that has the potential to defy Chomsky's theory, which would then grant the theory testable.

I don't think that Chomsky's theory is on the level of subjectiveness as in Freud's psychoanalysis, but I think that in light of Popper's philosophy the little subjectiveness that Chomsky's theory has will not fly. I only wish I could convey what I am thinking. I want to say that it is analogous to trying to test consciousness. For example, to research consciousness, one would have to rely on his/her own consciousness to do so. I want to say that this is what the objectivists are trying to convey when they say the theory is too subjective to be considered science. But I can't quite wrap my mind around what they mean with the LAD

Language is far to complicated to be acquired as quickly and thoroughly as it is unless some of the basic structure of the language is already there and present within the mind/brain i.e. a Language Acquisition Device. I don't see the subjectivity quite yet. One need not introspect to come up with this theory. One can just observe children learning language.
0 Replies
 
Brandi phil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 09:28 pm
@Brandi phil,
Does anyone know what theory of language acquisition most linguists subscribe to?
Deckard
 
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Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 10:09 pm
@Brandi phil,
Brandi;171943 wrote:
Does anyone know what theory of language acquisition most linguists subscribe to?

That's a question best answered by visiting wikipedia and google.
0 Replies
 
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 10:58 pm
@Brandi phil,
Brandi;171874 wrote:
I have been researching whether Chomsky's universal grammar is scientific inquiry according to Popper's philosophy of science. I am trying to gain some insight.
Chomsky's studies are highly contraversial, and as of such I do not consider his works scientific. All other lingual studies I have seen, points towards brute learning of grammar, there are no such thing as universal grammar ..though it sounds very romantic and thereby seduce many to belive in universal grammar.

Children can learn hand signs much faster than advanced language and grammar.

---------- Post added 06-02-2010 at 07:00 AM ----------

Brandi;171404 wrote:
Does all science need to be based on empirical data, and what empirical data is sufficient to be called science. When does something leave the objective realm and enter into the subjective. How can subjective experience be tested?
Think it's usually when it can be proved by double blind test, and are tested and trialed to be beyond reasonable doubt. By that, all possible behaviours are explained.
Brandi phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 12:05 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;171961 wrote:
Chomsky's studies are highly contraversial, and as of such I do not consider his works scientific. All other lingual studies I have seen, points towards brute learning of grammar, there are no such thing as universal grammar ..though it sounds very romantic and thereby seduce many to belive in universal grammar.

Children can learn hand signs much faster than advanced language and grammar.

---------- Post added 06-02-2010 at 07:00 AM ----------

Think it's usually when it can be proved by double blind test, and are tested and trialed to be beyond reasonable doubt. By that, all possible behaviours are explained.

I agree with you Smile
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 12:42 am
@Brandi phil,
I still would argue that objectivity is an ideal, and no more real than infinity is a number. What we have is persuasion, and various instituted forms/styles of such? How do we know when we know? What is proof? Has anyone really drawn a line between proof and persuasion?

---------- Post added 06-02-2010 at 01:45 AM ----------

Quote:

6.363 The procedure of induction consists in accepting as true the
simplest law that can be reconciled with our experiences.
6.3631 This procedure, however, has no logical justification but only a
psychological one. It is clear that there are no grounds for believing
that the simplest eventuality will in fact be realized.
How are "laws" reconciled with our experience? The prestige of natural science is based it seems on the impressive technology it has made possible. Prediction is useful. Application is useful. Is this what objectivity is? But haven't great leaders been able to predict and apply certain psychological/political inductions? Is it just that this second sort of prediction/application is difficult to quantify?
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 01:16 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;171992 wrote:
I still would argue that objectivity is an ideal, and no more real than infinity is a number. What we have is persuasion, and various instituted forms/styles of such? How do we know when we know? What is proof? Has anyone really drawn a line between proof and persuasion?
Seems like you just emptied some random books into a kettle and it boiled over with all kinds of pharses and words, did you try to cook up a poem?

Or can you explain what you wrote in lay man terms?
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 01:21 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;172010 wrote:
Seems like you just emptied some random books into a kettle and it boiled over with all kinds of pharses and words, did you try to cook up a poem?

Or can you explain what you wrote in lay man terms?


All human experience is personal experience. Your eyes, hands, ears, fingers, brain. How does objectivity come into the picture? Because we agree that we are both looking at a "rose."

What does it mean when we say something is proven? Does this mean that we simply are convinced enough to use the statement/information?

---------- Post added 06-02-2010 at 02:26 AM ----------

Why is Napoleon not a scientist? Or Hitler? There are many kinds of inductions that allow one to predict phenomena and/or manipulate them. To buy and sell shares in a corporation is arguably science. There are just different styles of induction, prediction, application...

We are biased toward equations because of their precision, and because of the technology we associate with them. But aren't metaphors also potent in this way?
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 01:36 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;172013 wrote:
All human experience is personal experience. Your eyes, hands, ears, fingers, brain. How does objectivity come into the picture? Because we agree that we are both looking at a "rose."

What does it mean when we say something is proven? Does this mean that we simply are convinced enough to use the statement/information?

---------- Post added 06-02-2010 at 02:26 AM ----------

Why is Napoleon not a scientist? Or Hitler? There are many kinds of inductions that allow one to predict phenomena and/or manipulate them. To buy and sell shares in a corporation is arguably science. There are just different styles of induction, prediction, application...

We are biased toward equations because of their precision, and because of the technology we associate with them. But aren't metaphors also potent in this way?
Aha, well, we usually talk within the frame of plausibility, that convince us.

One could righfully say that Napoleon was a scientist of warfare, but not Hitler, he relyed on extremely skilled and intelligent advisors, generals and scientists, himself was an idiot, selfdelusional.
Razzleg
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 03:30 am
@HexHammer,
@ the OP

I'm not sure how helpful my input will be regarding the falsifiability of Chomsky's generative grammar, but the distinction between objective and subjective has always seemed ambiguous to me, as have the two concepts themselves. To what degree are our sense impressions subjective? Do we merely mean that our ability to register the world around us is limited by our particular location (our position/perspective both spatially and temporally) and the accuracy of our biological instruments (the acuity of our eyes, for example)? Or do we mean that our interpretations of that sense data are inescapably determined by those limitations? Clearly, when we assemble our sense impressions into interpretable patterns we may test new data by seeing how it "fits" with established, tested "facts."

To bring some of Popper into my contribution to this thread, if scientific theory may not be proven, but only falsified then a certain ambiguity lies latent in the concept of objectivity as well. Certain "subjective" data will be subject to experiment, thus perhaps shifting it's scientific status. Other aspects of interpretation will remain unfalsifiable, but if we insist on seeking a unified worldview we may simply employ the law of noncontradiction to reconcile our unverifiable "interpretations" with experimental results. When experience cannot be realistically absorbed into the larger established pattern, the intellectually honest person will be forced to identify it as a limit case to both scientific/objective and "subjective" interpretation. Perhaps just such limit cases are the spur for the radical paradigm shifts postulated by Kuhn (against Popper.) Of course, I don't think that everyone requires a unified worldview to operate, and certain personal contradictions often remain unaddressed. (In the Popper v. Kuhn debate, I support Feyerabend.:Cara_2:)

Doesn't that seem to be what happens generally? Of course, what one person will consider an experiment versus another might lead to some controversy. However, my point was that the division between subjective and objective is hardly impermeable.

Off the cuff, do you think that this would be considered an experiment to falsify universal grammar? It's a very random thought, ill-formed, and probably completely wrong-headed, but I'll throw it out anyway:

Take several different control groups of children, each group speaking a separate language at roughly the same skill level, and ask them to write sentences using a small group of vocabulary words, each of which has a semantically similar word in the other languages used in the experiment. Statistically compare the children within each language group to see if there is a common group of grammatical errors to which they are prone, and if there are any that they avoid. Then take a group of children who are raised multilingual and have them write sentences with the same vocabulary words in each of the languages in which they are "fluent". Statistically compare the children within the multilingual group to see if A) there is a pattern of language usage within this group in each of the languages separately, B) whether they commonly commit and avoid the same mistakes as the monolingual children in the sentences in which they share a language, and C) whether the grammar usage of the multilinguists can be "translated" between the languages.

There are a lot of things being assumed above, and, of course, C) is the kicker. No language's grammar is identical with another, so, some usage, and some errors, simply won't transfer from one language to another. However, by studying the data, perhaps some rough equivalencies might be detected. I don't know if any of that was helpful or even reasonable at this point. That generally means that it is bedtime.
0 Replies
 
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 10:00 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;171992 wrote:
I still would argue that objectivity is an ideal, and no more real than infinity is a number. What we have is persuasion, and various instituted forms/styles of such? How do we know when we know? What is proof? Has anyone really drawn a line between proof and persuasion?



When I was doing a degree in archaeology the mantra was "there is no fact uninterpreted". Granted this was a hedge because of archaeology's inability to directly connect method with theory, but the mantra stands true for all things people see as fact. I don't want to drive the convo off in another direction, but no matter how out there they were the Post-Modernists did do us the favor/disfavor of showing us that everything potentially has an alternate story to explain it.
0 Replies
 
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 10:09 am
@Brandi phil,
[QUOTE]Why subjective theories are not science[/QUOTE]Now that I don't have any formal education I have had difficulties interpeting the excat meaning of the headline and the folloing initial post, but if I understand it correctly I must disagree with the headline.

It is not all science that can be proven 100% ..beyond reasonable doubt. We can't travel back millions of years and get the excat data of how things were back then, not even 2000 years to romans ..etc, nor can we know for sure if the string theory/M Theory/Super Symmetry holds true, we can only theorize and spekulate.

Therefore these subjective theories must be considerd science in a qualifyed guessing manner.
0 Replies
 
 

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