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If you were a bookie... Polls and bets on the 2004 elections

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2004 06:28 pm
Re: Timber - Yeah, polls apparently intimidate people somewhat - important numbers of which you're not quite sure how they've come about ... So you get these conspiracy theories and mythologies.

Usually its the conservatives who insist on Zogby's conspirative spinning for the Democrats and the liberals who assert the opposite for the Fox, Rasmussen polls ... Gallup is new in that list this year though, I think, no?

Re: Fox - Err, yeah ... A2Kers are not representative of the American population as a whole. That's right. When's the last time anyone asserted they were, though? I mean, was that a propos of anything specifically?

As for what the majority of American voters prefer ... well, I guess ... how many different ways can one spell "too close to call", huh? ;-)

It's nice to see some surprise polls suddenly taking Colorado and Arkansas back into play ... more relevant that the polls seem to have taken Wisconsin, which I'd already half given up on, back into tossup status. But it's a pity that New Mexico now seems to be out of reach, and it's positively exasperating that not just Pennsylvania, but Michigan too now appears to be wide open again. That's just depressing, state like that shoulda been a lock a long time ago.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2004 06:43 pm
well, i guess in a few days we'll have some people who'll have picked the winner and some people who have not. hope you will all still remain on speaking terms and just consider it a contest. good luck to all of you, and keep a song in your heart ! hbg
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2004 08:38 pm
hamburger, I reckon there's a buncha folks here who long since have gotten off speakin' terms with one another, and who won't be on speakin' terms with one another again 'till well after the election, if at all.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2004 08:40 pm
Oh it aint that bad now, Timber, is it?

Here, I'm even still on speaking terms with yours truly, even if I have to get my fact-checker out every now and then Razz
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2004 08:42 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Oh, nimh ... re Scott Rasmussen ... he's an announced and firm Democrat.

He's got a funny way of showing it ...

I dont have a problem with his polls - they're just polls. But the accompanying analyses are often blatantly partisan - as we've observed ourselves some time, I believe ...
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2004 08:43 pm
Don't mind crossin' keyboards with you a bit, nimh ... its a pleasure and an honor. And nitpickin' each other has gotten to be a fun passtime for both of us, hasn't it? ... BTW, as I recall, Scott Rasmussen is an announced and firm Democrat.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2004 08:46 pm
It has, it has. And one always learns something from it.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2004 08:46 pm
Sorry 'bout the confusion there re the original Rasmussen/Democrat post ... I'd meant it to be an addendum to the prior post of mine, not separate ... went back in to correct that, and found we'd cross-posted. Oh well. Busted again. At least it was you who nailed me Laughing
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 07:21 am
Good:

Quote:
The memory of Florida's bitterly disputed recount four years ago loomed prominently for Kerry at each stop, as audiences thundered repeatedly: "Four more days!"

(That's the spirit)

Good:

Quote:
Democratic Sen. John Kerry moved into a one-point lead over President Bush three days before the presidential election, according to a Reuters/Zogby poll released on Saturday.

Kerry led Bush 47-46 percent, well within the margin of error, in the latest three-day national tracking poll. Bush and Kerry were tied at 47 percent on Friday.

[..] At this stage of the disputed 2000 election, Bush led Gore by four points in the daily tracking poll.

[..] "Bush continues to hold on to solid support among Republicans, investors, married voters and born again Christians," pollster John Zogby said. "Kerry expands his lead among young voters, African Americans and Hispanics.

link

(Why is the latter good? Because Republicans and born again Christians were already polling solidly Bush, while Kerry still had ground to make up - not just in making people prefer him, but in making people determined to actually go out and vote - among minorities and young people. So there is more to win for him here.)

Not good:

Quote:
"But Kerry is still getting the support of only 84 percent of black voters, short of the more than 90 percent claimed by Democrat Al Gore in 2000 and enough of a shortfall to make a difference in a few critical states in such a tight election.

The Massachusetts senator had a 48-41 percent edge among newly registered voters, an unpredictable group that could be a wild card on Tuesday depending on how many actually turn out to vote.

Only 3 percent of likely voters remain undecided. [..]

Bush gained ground in some of the critical swing states that will decide who accumulates the 270 electoral votes needed to win, leading in six of the 10 battleground states surveyed in a series of Reuters/Zogby state tracking polls."

(same link)

Not good (obviously):

Quote:
"Bin Laden Video Adds Fuel to the Partisan Fire
Democrats say Bush missed the chance to seize the terrorist leader. Republicans say the tape shifts voters' focus in the president's favor."

(LA Times headline. I agree with the Republican take.)

Not good:

Quote:

link

Not good:

Quote:
"Kerry Shifts Tone In Closing Days
Candidate puts a positive face of the campaign as stars stump in Miami."

(headline on LATimes. Last-minute drastic shifts in strategy are never a good sign ...)

Finally, to go back to that Reuters/Zogby poll, an unexpected division of states:

Quote:
"Bush led in Ohio, Colorado, Iowa, Michigan, New Mexico and Nevada. Kerry led in Florida, Minnesota, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin."


That would translate into 276 EV for Bush, 262 for Kerry, despite Kerry's lead in the popular vote.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 08:18 am
nimh wrote:

That would translate into 276 EV for Bush, 262 for Kerry, despite Kerry's lead in the popular vote.


Good
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 10:28 am
LOL!

Ok, ok - good for you.

Not good for you; after Zogby earlier today, Rasmussen, too, now shows movement towards Kerry in its latest tracking poll:

Bush 47,9 (-0,8)
Kerry 47,1 (+0,4)

When leaners are included, it's

Bush 48.8 (-0,7)
Kerry 48.3 (+0,4)

Data gathered over the past three nights. Odd. I woulda thought yesterday's OBL video would have given Bush at least one night's of top results for in the mix.

Lessee what TIPP and WaPo say later today.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 10:44 am
Then again, here's Newsweek with a surge back up for Bush.

(Newsweek polls, like Gallup's, have been rather volatile this year, with an 11% Bush lead around the Convention turning into a 2% Kerry lead after the first debate, which swang back into a 6% Bush lead amidst the Mary Cheney thing. A 6% lead that was then cut down to a third the next week (last week), but is now restored again.)

3-way
Bush 50 (+2)
Kerry 44 (-2)

Nader 1 (no ch.)

2-way
Bush 51 (+3)
Kerry 45 (-2)

Even among all registered voters (the above is the likely voter sample) Bush leads by 3-4%.

Quote:

LINK
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 10:46 am
What Zogby tells me: Kerry wins
New York Daily News - http://www.nydailynews.com
What Zogby tells me: Kerry wins
Friday, October 29th, 2004

Pollster John Zogby, in a telephone interview with me yesterday, predicted that John Kerry will win the election. "It's close," he said, "but in the last couple of days things have been trending toward Kerry - nationally and in the swing states. Between this and history, I think it will be Kerry."

When Zogby talks, politicians listen. He made his bones in the Bill Clinton-Bob Dole election of 1996, when he came within one-tenth of a percentage point of the final tally.

Bet me that when the Bushies read what Zogby told me, not just the rhetoric will rise, but so will the fever.

Particularly since one of their favorite columnists, Robert Novak, reported in yesterday's Washington Post that Zogby called the race for President Bush in a conversation he had with the pollster on Monday.

Zogby was jocular about the Novak column, although he has decided not to post a comment on his Web site. Here's what he told me: "I said Bush was winning, I didn't say I thought he'd win. On Monday, he was indeed looking good. But on Tuesday, things changed. Kerry, in that one day, picked up 5 points."

Well, what about New Jersey? Al Gore took the Garden State by 16 points, and now the Quinnipiac poll makes it even. If Kerry loses Jersey, it could be a landslide for Bush, no, Mr. Zogby?

I could hear Zogby shrug. "New Jersey?" he said. "Take out your navy blue crayon and color Jersey dark. I don't even poll New Jersey."

The politicians of both parties appear to agree. If they believed Jersey was in play, Kerry and Bush would be in Newark and Jersey City on the spot. But nobody showed.

Maurice Carroll nodded - I heard that on the phone, too. Mickey runs the Quinnipiac poll, and being straight, he said, "It makes me trepidatious about our numbers."

What?

"I've gotta look it up, too," he laughed. "But of course when the politicians pay no attention, we have to wonder if we got it right."

And then he added: "Maybe because our poll had 6% undecided. Historically, the undecided vote goes big to the challenger."

Polls, polls, polls. Is that all there is, Alfie?

Let's check the London line. The legal bookies across the sea have been uncannily right over the years on our elections. They probably called 1776 for George Washington.

And on this one, the Republicans have to love it.

The latest line from sunny old England makes Bush, in their funny lingo, a 4-7 favorite. (Vegas would say it 7-4.) That's almost 2-to-1.

Maybe London looks at it this way because they don't have the benefit of our pundits, day in, day out. On the other hand, we don't need polls to tell us that the Brits hate the Iraq war and consider Dubya to be a cut under Jack the Ripper.

The one poll that chilled me yesterday went like this: "If the candidate you're against wins, will you still support him?"

Sixty-two percent said no.

Maybe not civil war, but certainly something that great Texan Jim Hightower could explain to us.

"If the gods wanted us to vote," Hightower once observed, "they'd have given us candidates."
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 11:27 am
Actually, Dems will be better served if Kerry doesn't win this year.

He is a poll-watcher, as are most Dems, and making political decisions re Iraq rather than sound military decisions would cement the public's lack of trust re Dems in office during military crisis.

His voting record proves he will 1) make the liberal choice, hamstringing our military and 2) base military decisions based on polls and popularity. (The flip-flop)

You just can't be successful doing that in wartime.

If he worsens the situation in Iraq--Dems will almost be shut out of the Executive for quite a long time.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 11:44 am
There are opinions, and then there are data.

Battleground: Bush 46, Kerry 41

Newsweek: Bush 50, Kerry 44

Rasmussen: Bush 48, Kerry 47

Reuters-Zogby: Bush 46, Kerry 47

Tipp: Bush 46, Kerry 44

FN: Bush 50, Kerry 45

WaPo: Bush 50, Kerry 47

Battleground: Bush 51, Kerry 46

Tradesports: Bush 54.5, +1.5/Kerry 46.9, -1.0

RCP Average: Bush +3.3 in 3-Way, +3.5 in Head-to-Head

CNN Poll of Polls: Bush 48, Kerry 46


IEM Chart:
http://www.able2know.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10156/normal_IEM%201030.jpg

RCP Chart:
http://www.able2know.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10156/normal_3waybig%7E0.jpg

The data at this point don't look all that encouraging for The Kerry Kamp, seems to me. Of course, there's still 2 days to go.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 11:47 am
Watching for some wild, last minute smear.

(Wonder who will do it? )
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 12:09 pm
The 'lost munitions' at al-Qaqaa was it I think. A UN official leaked it but for once we got on it in time before CBS could air it Sunday night before the election. The next desperate ploy is the sinister "FBI investigation of Halliburton", but they haven't been able to make that one have legs.

Each one of these things seems to cause a little ripple in the polls, but at this point the ripple seems to be going the GOP way both at the Congressional and Presidential levels as sane Americans see these things as the desperate but empty trash talk that they are.

But anything can happen. They almost did Bush in with the DWI thing last time around and that no doubt cost him the popular vote and almost the electoral college. They're almost certainly looking for something to sink him with this time.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 12:13 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
The 'lost munitions' at al-Qaqaa was it I think. A UN official leaked it but for once we got on it in time before CBS could air it Sunday night before the election. [..] sane Americans see these things as the desperate but empty trash talk that they are.

Last I heard was there is video footage of after the Americans entered the country that showed the ammunition still there. Now it no longer is. It's the desperate tales of "the Russians took it to Syria!" thats the empty talk around here.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 12:17 pm
Foxfyre - I hope you're right on the al-Qaqaa thing. Some of George Soros' recent comments lead me to believe he's all but conceded the election to Bush, but I still don't trust him.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2004 12:20 pm
I heard on NPR Soros gave 15 million to the Dems. The largest amount given to the GOP--5 million.

<shock>
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