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If you were a bookie... Polls and bets on the 2004 elections

 
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 08:18 am
Almost forgot:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Today's endorsement of John Kerry by the New York Times is a gem.

Hope you can get through using this link...

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/opinion/17sun1.html?th


Nope, I guess they don't really mean it. Laughing
(Can you cut and paste?)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 08:27 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:

(Can you cut and paste?)


Quote:
October 17, 2004
John Kerry for President

Senator John Kerry goes toward the election with a base that is built more on opposition to George W. Bush than loyalty to his own candidacy. But over the last year we have come to know Mr. Kerry as more than just an alternative to the status quo. We like what we've seen. He has qualities that could be the basis for a great chief executive, not just a modest improvement on the incumbent.

We have been impressed with Mr. Kerry's wide knowledge and clear thinking - something that became more apparent once he was reined in by that two-minute debate light. He is blessedly willing to re-evaluate decisions when conditions change. And while Mr. Kerry's service in Vietnam was first over-promoted and then over-pilloried, his entire life has been devoted to public service, from the war to a series of elected offices. He strikes us, above all, as a man with a strong moral core.

•

There is no denying that this race is mainly about Mr. Bush's disastrous tenure. Nearly four years ago, after the Supreme Court awarded him the presidency, Mr. Bush came into office amid popular expectation that he would acknowledge his lack of a mandate by sticking close to the center. Instead, he turned the government over to the radical right.

Mr. Bush installed John Ashcroft, a favorite of the far right with a history of insensitivity to civil liberties, as attorney general. He sent the Senate one ideological, activist judicial nominee after another. He moved quickly to implement a far-reaching anti-choice agenda including censorship of government Web sites and a clampdown on embryonic stem cell research. He threw the government's weight against efforts by the University of Michigan to give minority students an edge in admission, as it did for students from rural areas or the offspring of alumni.

When the nation fell into recession, the president remained fixated not on generating jobs but rather on fighting the right wing's war against taxing the wealthy. As a result, money that could have been used to strengthen Social Security evaporated, as did the chance to provide adequate funding for programs the president himself had backed. No Child Left Behind, his signature domestic program, imposed higher standards on local school systems without providing enough money to meet them.

If Mr. Bush had wanted to make a mark on an issue on which Republicans and Democrats have long made common cause, he could have picked the environment. Christie Whitman, the former New Jersey governor chosen to run the Environmental Protection Agency, came from that bipartisan tradition. Yet she left after three years of futile struggle against the ideologues and industry lobbyists Mr. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney had installed in every other important environmental post. The result has been a systematic weakening of regulatory safeguards across the entire spectrum of environmental issues, from clean air to wilderness protection.

•

The president who lost the popular vote got a real mandate on Sept. 11, 2001. With the grieving country united behind him, Mr. Bush had an unparalleled opportunity to ask for almost any shared sacrifice. The only limit was his imagination.

He asked for another tax cut and the war against Iraq.

The president's refusal to drop his tax-cutting agenda when the nation was gearing up for war is perhaps the most shocking example of his inability to change his priorities in the face of drastically altered circumstances. Mr. Bush did not just starve the government of the money it needed for his own education initiative or the Medicare drug bill. He also made tax cuts a higher priority than doing what was needed for America's security; 90 percent of the cargo unloaded every day in the nation's ports still goes uninspected.

Along with the invasion of Afghanistan, which had near unanimous international and domestic support, Mr. Bush and his attorney general put in place a strategy for a domestic antiterror war that had all the hallmarks of the administration's normal method of doing business: a Nixonian obsession with secrecy, disrespect for civil liberties and inept management.

American citizens were detained for long periods without access to lawyers or family members. Immigrants were rounded up and forced to languish in what the Justice Department's own inspector general found were often "unduly harsh" conditions. Men captured in the Afghan war were held incommunicado with no right to challenge their confinement. The Justice Department became a cheerleader for skirting decades-old international laws and treaties forbidding the brutal treatment of prisoners taken during wartime.

Mr. Ashcroft appeared on TV time and again to announce sensational arrests of people who turned out to be either innocent, harmless braggarts or extremely low-level sympathizers of Osama bin Laden who, while perhaps wishing to do something terrible, lacked the means. The Justice Department cannot claim one major successful terrorism prosecution, and has squandered much of the trust and patience the American people freely gave in 2001. Other nations, perceiving that the vast bulk of the prisoners held for so long at Guantánamo Bay came from the same line of ineffectual incompetents or unlucky innocents, and seeing the awful photographs from the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad, were shocked that the nation that was supposed to be setting the world standard for human rights could behave that way.

•

Like the tax cuts, Mr. Bush's obsession with Saddam Hussein seemed closer to zealotry than mere policy. He sold the war to the American people, and to Congress, as an antiterrorist campaign even though Iraq had no known working relationship with Al Qaeda. His most frightening allegation was that Saddam Hussein was close to getting nuclear weapons. It was based on two pieces of evidence. One was a story about attempts to purchase critical materials from Niger, and it was the product of rumor and forgery. The other evidence, the purchase of aluminum tubes that the administration said were meant for a nuclear centrifuge, was concocted by one low-level analyst and had been thoroughly debunked by administration investigators and international vetting. Top members of the administration knew this, but the selling went on anyway. None of the president's chief advisers have ever been held accountable for their misrepresentations to the American people or for their mismanagement of the war that followed.

The international outrage over the American invasion is now joined by a sense of disdain for the incompetence of the effort. Moderate Arab leaders who have attempted to introduce a modicum of democracy are tainted by their connection to an administration that is now radioactive in the Muslim world. Heads of rogue states, including Iran and North Korea, have been taught decisively that the best protection against a pre-emptive American strike is to acquire nuclear weapons themselves.

•

We have specific fears about what would happen in a second Bush term, particularly regarding the Supreme Court. The record so far gives us plenty of cause for worry. Thanks to Mr. Bush, Jay Bybee, the author of an infamous Justice Department memo justifying the use of torture as an interrogation technique, is now a federal appeals court judge. Another Bush selection, J. Leon Holmes, a federal judge in Arkansas, has written that wives must be subordinate to their husbands and compared abortion rights activists to Nazis.

Mr. Bush remains enamored of tax cuts but he has never stopped Republican lawmakers from passing massive spending, even for projects he dislikes, like increased farm aid.

If he wins re-election, domestic and foreign financial markets will know the fiscal recklessness will continue. Along with record trade imbalances, that increases the chances of a financial crisis, like an uncontrolled decline of the dollar, and higher long-term interest rates.

The Bush White House has always given us the worst aspects of the American right without any of the advantages. We get the radical goals but not the efficient management. The Department of Education's handling of the No Child Left Behind Act has been heavily politicized and inept. The Department of Homeland Security is famous for its useless alerts and its inability to distribute antiterrorism aid according to actual threats. Without providing enough troops to properly secure Iraq, the administration has managed to so strain the resources of our armed forces that the nation is unprepared to respond to a crisis anywhere else in the world.

•

Mr. Kerry has the capacity to do far, far better. He has a willingness - sorely missing in Washington these days - to reach across the aisle. We are relieved that he is a strong defender of civil rights, that he would remove unnecessary restrictions on stem cell research and that he understands the concept of separation of church and state. We appreciate his sensible plan to provide health coverage for most of the people who currently do without.

Mr. Kerry has an aggressive and in some cases innovative package of ideas about energy, aimed at addressing global warming and oil dependency. He is a longtime advocate of deficit reduction. In the Senate, he worked with John McCain in restoring relations between the United States and Vietnam, and led investigations of the way the international financial system has been gamed to permit the laundering of drug and terror money. He has always understood that America's appropriate role in world affairs is as leader of a willing community of nations, not in my-way-or-the-highway domination.

We look back on the past four years with hearts nearly breaking, both for the lives unnecessarily lost and for the opportunities so casually wasted. Time and again, history invited George W. Bush to play a heroic role, and time and again he chose the wrong course. We believe that with John Kerry as president, the nation will do better.

Voting for president is a leap of faith. A candidate can explain his positions in minute detail and wind up governing with a hostile Congress that refuses to let him deliver. A disaster can upend the best-laid plans. All citizens can do is mix guesswork and hope, examining what the candidates have done in the past, their apparent priorities and their general character. It's on those three grounds that we enthusiastically endorse John Kerry for president.


An endorsement of Senator Charles Schumer for re-election to the Senate appears today in the City, Long Island and Westchester weekly sections.
Source
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 08:40 am
Nimh writes:
Quote:
(Now the usual suspects will turn up to say that the voters have simply realised after all that Bush is just a good guy who always did his best and actually made no major mistakes and that Kerry is simply all talk, a flip-flopping liberal who can't be trusted. But somehow, I'm not buying into the notion that something undefinable has suddenly turned the undecided voters collectively into Foxfyre or JustWonders ...)


While I'm quite sure Nimh's reference to me and JW is not complimentary here, I will go with that thought. I think probably JW is and I know I am basing presidential choice on convictions of right and wrong, better or best, which convictions we believe George W. Bush also holds. Kerry's base cannot possibly be supporting him on any such basis as he has not given anybody any confidence that he holds any conviction about anything other than he has been consistent on a few far left positions not shared by a sizable majority of the American public.

I think JW, and I know I do not make decisions on anything as shallow and inconsequential as a debate style. I had fun scoring the debates and Kerry proved to be the better debater. I will nevertheless go with the person who most closely reflects my values and what is important to me.

George Bush gives his supporters something to believe in, and, while he may not be an exemplary president, he has for the most part been faithful to his convictions for the last four years. Conservatives generally vote FOR something rather than just AGAINST something and they don't have to agree with every policy to choose a better candidate. And I believe most Americans, both Democrat and Republican, are conservative. I think that is why the polls show that Bush's base is so solid. I think for most of his supporters, John Kerry is merely a person to vote for instead of Bush. That makes for a much weaker group conviction.

Of course nobody has a crystal ball here, but if I read the American public mostly right, Bush will win.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 09:12 am
Thank you, again, Walter. :smile:
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 09:16 am
There's a thread on it... also has a link to a must-read 10 page article about Bush... I've asked for your opinion on it there, O'Bill.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 09:30 am
Foxfyre wrote:
While I'm quite sure Nimh's reference to me and JW is not complimentary here, I will go with that thought.

Oh it was not necessarily not complimentary. I merely meant to say what you yourself said just now, really. The reasons you indicate why you think George Bush is the best choice for president are indeed a fair representation of why many conservatives think so, and in that sense the two of you can serve as pars pro toto for that voter segment. But they speak of a mindset that I don't think one is turned into from one day to another, it's a whole outlook on the world. Thats what I was hinting at.

Usually, when I'm wondering out loud what reason is behind the latest 3% turn in the polls, someone comes up and pontificates on how people must, basically, finally have 'seen the light' and realised everything a true conservative already knew about Bush/Kerry. This I consider unlikely. If the independents or undecideds shift a little this way or that way, it is unlikely to be because they've suddenly bought into the full liberal or conservative world view. More likely, it's something a little more specific, or a little more instinctive, that they liked or didnt like and finally made them make up their mind. But in this case all I can think of, in terms of why this last debate would suddenly have those undecideds react very differently from how they reacted to the second one, is Mary Cheney. I'm still a bit incredulous about that, though.

We'll see what the next few days bring ... Meanwhile, here's some much-needed good news for our side again - today's Zogby/Reuters tracking numbers are in. The headline is a bit deceptive, since Kerry didn't actually gain any points - but at least Bush lost some again. The internals about how those who still are undecided feel about Bush are particularly hopeful.

Zogby/Reuters
Bush 46% (-2)
Kerry 44% (no ch.)

Nader 1% (no ch.)

Quote:
Reuters Poll: Kerry Trims Bush Lead to 2 Points
Link

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Democratic challenger John Kerry cut President Bush's lead to 2 points with just over two weeks to go before the Nov. 2 election, according to a Reuters/Zogby poll released Sunday.

Bush led Kerry by 46 percent to 44 percent in the latest three-day tracking poll of the closely contested race for the White House. The president led the Massachusetts senator by 48 percent to 44 percent the previous day.

"The third debate is now registering among voters and Kerry had a good day," pollster John Zogby said.

The new tracking poll found Kerry regained a good lead among 18- to 29-year-old voters and consolidated his advantage among Hispanics. Bush and Kerry were tied among Roman Catholics, a group Kerry, himself a Catholic, must win to capture the White House, Zogby said.

Among the 7 percent of voters still undecided, Bush had a 34 percent positive job rating, versus a 66 percent negative rating. Only 18 percent of undecided respondents said the president deserved re-election, while 39 percent said it was time for someone new. In the latter group, 99 percent said they were likely to vote.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 09:32 am
It's more than the Endorsement Soz? And you're going to make me sign up for it?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 09:40 am
I'm trying Soz, but my computer won't let me... not even when I tell it to accept the damn cookies. Has anyone cut and pasted that story yet?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 09:40 am
Filter out the statiscal noise, roll off the peaks and troughs, and the polling track may show ongoing thought process among The Electorate At Large:


http://www.able2know.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10156/polls20041016.jpg

I find the histogram beneath the trendline chart, particularly the portion of it from early September on, indicative of Kerry's failure to engage any but The Democratic Base.

EDIT (timber): fixed image link
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 09:51 am
Eh, Timber, that picture wouldnt post. (Get a stern image-warning about "bandwidth theft" instead).

Meanwhile, today's Rasmussen tracking poll shows no change in the net margin, whatsoever:

Rasmussen
Bush 48.5 (+0.2)
Kerry 46.4 (+0.2)


"Today's update is based entirely upon interviews completed after the final Presidential Debate."
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 09:53 am
It's free... you really don't wanna sign up?

OK, I'll cut and paste somewhere -- it's LONG though.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 10:00 am
sozobe wrote:
It's free... you really don't wanna sign up?

OK, I'll cut and paste somewhere -- it's LONG though.
I just put this explanation on the other thread Smile :
Darlin I'm trying... but I can't make it work. I finally got my cookie-block stuff out of the way and it turns out I've already registered, but don't my username and password... and the feature that retrieves it is "temporarily unavailable". Confused Perhaps you could cut and paste it and drop it somewhere for me?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 10:03 am
Here ya go:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=36388

It's long, and the format is less friendly as cut and paste, but worth sticking with IMO.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 10:06 am
Sorry 'bout that image link back there ... I sorta fixed it. Here's the image again, anyway.

http://www.able2know.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10156/polls20041016.jpg

I'd really like to get nimh's take on what it seems to indicate.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 10:20 am
timberlandko wrote:
http://www.able2know.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10156/polls20041016.jpg

EDIT (timber): fixed image link

Cool.

I'm wondering how different the pic might look if they'd identified the trendline for the Bush support from March rather than from May onward. Envisioning it, I'd say it would still give the advantage to Bush, but a lot less drastically so.

What site is the graph from?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 10:41 am
nimh wrote:
What site is the graph from?


Steve Den Bestse's blog.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 10:48 am
nimh wrote:
I'm wondering how different the pic might look if they'd identified the trendline for the Bush support from March rather than from May onward. Envisioning it, I'd say it would still give the advantage to Bush, but a lot less drastically so.

What site is the graph from?

Never mind, found it. It's from here.

Somehow my inkling of a degree of partisanness involved in the analysis seems confirmed by what I read there.

The maker claims, first, that Kerry's high numbers in August were the result of "the polls [..] being deliberately gimmicked, in hopes of helping Kerry", namely through "an attempt to engineer a 'post-convention bounce'" that "failed and was abandoned after about two weeks".

He then claims that Kerry's low numbers in September were also the result of "a deliberate attempt" to help Kerry, by "depress[ing his] numbers, so as to set up an 'October comeback'" - "Of course, the goal was to engineer a bandwagon."

Hmmmm ... we're talking a variety of up to (in my last count) 35 different polls by different media and research institutes with different leanings - but both the boost they showed for Kerry in July/August and the one they showed for Bush in August/September were the result of an elaborate media conspiracy to help the Democrat?

I saw that Daly expressed respect for the guy even while disagreeing with the conspiracy theory. I'm not that patient. Anyone who spins tales like that is way off into wacko zone.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 10:50 am
Today's tracking poll results from TIPP:

3-way race:
Bush 48 (no ch.)
Kerry 45 (no ch.)

Nader 2 (no ch.)

2-way race:
Bush 47 (no ch.)
Kerry 43 (-1)
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 10:58 am
New Democracy Corps poll in:

Bush 47 (-1)
Kerry 50 (+2)

Nader 1 (no ch.)

Dem Corps is a Democratic pollster.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 11:09 am
Huh!

Meanwhile, stop the presses! THE most reliable electoral college breakdown ever has just been conducted, and it looks good for Kerry.

Methodology: Using CNN's "Track the Presidential Race State by State" insert in the New Yorker magazine, a map of America and blue donkey and red elephant stickers, analysts soz and sozlet conducted the following experiment (as described by sozlet):

"This will be SO FUN. OK, you stick on the blue donkeys, and I stick on the red elephants. It will be a race!! You'll LOVE it. OK, go!!!"

California, New York, and Texas were quickly claimed for the Democrats, while surprisingly Massachusetts went Republican. Wins in the swing states of Florida, Ohio, Minnesota and Wisconsin helped ensure a resounding Kerry victory, by 397 electoral votes to 142. (I was adding fast, that might not be exactly right.)

Now I can rest easy and just wait for reality to catch up on November 2nd!

:-D
0 Replies
 
 

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