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If you were a bookie... Polls and bets on the 2004 elections

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2004 04:23 am
So, folks ... what would you think of a Bush/Edwards administration?

Dont laugh ... its possible. electoral-vote.com explains how it could come about (and some other tricksy stuff):

Quote:
Several people noticed that using the new interactive maps it is easy to produce a tie in the electoral college. In fact, if you look at the map for Aug. 6 and Bush wins Missouri, you have a tie. What is supposed to happen next is described on the Electoral college page, namely, the newly-elected House of Representatives chooses the president, with each state having one vote. To make it easier to see how that would come out with the current House, I have colored the Excel spreadsheet with the state data to indicate which party controls which state delegation. Currently the Republicans control 31, the Democrats control 14, and 5 are tied. While the Democrats have a chance to recapture the majority of seats in the House, they have no chance in the world to capture a majority of the state delegations, especially since a number of the states in the West have one or two (well-entrenched) Representatives. Thus if the electoral college is tied and the House votes, Bush wins. However, all is not lost for the Democrats. The Senate picks the Vice President, so if the Democrats pick up the two seats needed to recapture the Senate, we get a hybrid administration: Bush-Edwards. And don't forget, the Vice President's one constitutional power is to cast tie-breaking votes in the Senate. It could get real dicey.

And then there is the problem of faithless electors. How much does it cost to buy an elector? $5 million? $10 million? $50 million? Can they be auctioned off on E-Bay? Throughout history, there have been eight faithless electors, most recently in 2000. The problem also occurs if the electoral college score is Kerry 270, Bush 268. If one Kerry elector jumps ship it becomes a tie and the House elects Bush.


If you read the above on the site itself you'll find some words linking to more information ...
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2004 07:20 am
That of itself isn't laughable; its the law and certainly is nothing new. What does occasion amusement is the notion it would strike someone as newsworthy. Sorta rings of "But wait! Perhaps all is not lost after all! We might yet manage at least a partial victory if .... "

The current advantage seemingly shown by Kerry reminds me of Dean's juggernaught, and of course brings to mind the "substantial" Dukakis lead three months out from the general election, and of the optimism felt by Democrats going into the 2002 mid-terms.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2004 06:05 pm
timberlandko wrote:
What does occasion amusement is the notion it would strike someone as newsworthy. Sorta rings of "But wait! Perhaps all is not lost after all! We might yet manage at least a partial victory if .... "

The sense that somehow a "partial victory" could be gleaned from such an occurrence of events is hardly what I would read in that description above - nor do I see any joyful anticipation about the possibility in the item. "It could get real dicey" doesnt sound like "wait! Perhaps all is not lost after all!" to me, so I think all of that might just be your projections.

What I saw in that post is the same reaction at suddenly-realised facts with which I reposted it here - the puzzled and perhaps somewhat hilarified wonder at such a quirk of the system - and a certain trepidation about the possibility that, in a race as close as this one, something like this just might actually come to pass!

The post is from a blog-style site on the electoral college, so its really just an individual's wonder and ponderings there - no implication of anything necessarily "newsworthy" - though what it said was sure news to me!

If it did happen, I assume a VP Edwards would be a lame duck, excluded from any decision-making and unable to effect any influence ... but would he ever even take office, at all? How would the various parties concerned react if such a baffling situation would materialise? I just find it hard to imagine, at all ... and I found it also a fascinating little theoretical confluence of events.

timberlandko wrote:
The current advantage seemingly shown by Kerry reminds me of Dean's juggernaught, and of course brings to mind the "substantial" Dukakis lead three months out from the general election, and of the optimism felt by Democrats going into the 2002 mid-terms.

It would "of course" bring such to your mind - just like the current situation brings Bush Sr.'s election-year fate to keltic's mind. I assume that says more about each of your electoral preferences than about the actual political situation ...

As for "Dean's juggernaut", that of course is a non-starter. When Dean's juggernaut seemed to ensure his success at winning the primary race, that very prospect made many Dems, including many out-and-out liberals here, very worried indeed about what chance a Dean candidacy would possibly stand against Bush in the general elections. The confidence of a similar Dean juggernaut against Bush existed, I think, only in the mind of passionate Deanies. But again, it obviously serves your point to imply that Dems were as confident about Dean's chances as some of them are now about Kerry's, so I'm sure you won't let me stop you from doing so again.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2004 06:21 pm
timberlandko wrote:
The current advantage seemingly shown by Kerry reminds me of Dean's juggernaught, and of course brings to mind the "substantial" Dukakis lead three months out from the general election, and of the optimism felt by Democrats going into the 2002 mid-terms.


Of course, it is also reminiscent of 1992, when another Republican incumbent (named Bush...imagine that!) tried to ride a crest of war success in Iraq all the way to November, but was knocked off his surfboard by the rocky shoals of Weak Economy. :wink:
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2004 07:47 pm
I believe there is little comparison to be found between the pre-election polling tracks of the Bush The Elder/Clinton matchup and the current contest, nor is there a substantive 3rd Party component this time around. I do indeed see a parallel between Kerry's performance since he locked up his eventual nomination and Dean's eventually futile gallop to the front of the pack, and I fully expect The Electorate at Large to reward Kerry's effort in much the same fashion as The Democratic Party Faithful rewarded Dean for his prowess.

I certainly don't deny I find the prospect politically pleasing, but regardless my politics, I see the outcome as a near statistical certainty. There always is the possibility of surprise, but possibilities should be weighed in terms of probability, and I see little probability of a Kerry Surprise upsetting my expectations. Should I be proven wrong, I doubt much of immediate substance will change as it is extremely unlikely the Democrats will wrest legislative control from The GOP, with or without Rodney Alexander. Still, I would prefer, and fully expect to see, a decided all-around GOP victory in November. I also fully expect that victory to drive the Democratic Activists positively to apoplexy.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2004 08:12 pm
"near statistical certainty", eh? How do you figure that out? I mean, the phrase implies some objective calculations rather than mere punditry after all?

Concerning historical precedents, I've understood that Bush Jr is doing distinctly better than any of the previous incumbents that lost (incl Bush SR) -- but that he's doing distinctly worse than any of the previous incumbents that won (since Truman, anyway). Sounds like more of a tossup than anything else to me, even if I'm still giving Bush the edge - I do so not for any statistical track record, but because of his ability as President to set the political and media agenda, in perhaps even the most drastic of ways.
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 12:45 am
timberlandko wrote:
I believe there is little comparison to be found between the pre-election polling tracks of the Bush The Elder/Clinton matchup and the current contest, nor is there a substantive 3rd Party component this time around.


Surely you ar not one of those deluded Republicans who are still thinking that Perot hurt Bush in 1992, are you?

Fortunately, you have kelticwizard to set you straight. Smile

If Perot hurt Bush in the election, please explain the following phenomena:

A) Just before the Democratic convention in 1992, Perot withdrew from the race, (temporarily, as it turned out). As a result, Clinton's numbers shot up astronomically-one poll had him up by 23 points! If Perot took Bush's supporters, why didn't Bush's numbers shoot up when he withdrew, instead of Clinton's?

B) When Perot re-entered the race later in the year, Clinton's margin over Bush in the polls lessened. If Perot was taking votes away from Bush, why didn't Bush get hurt when Perot re-entered the race? Instead, Clinton got hurt.

C) In 1996, Perot ran again, but curtailed the amount of money he spent on the campaign. As a result, he got only about half the vote he did in 1992. Yet Clinton's victory over his Republican opponent increased by three points over 1992. If Perot's support shrunk in half from 1992 to 1996, why didn't the Republican candidate benefit? Instead, it was Clinton who benefitted from Perot's shrunken support.

None of these three occurences could have happened if the "Perot took votes from Bush" theory was true.

Sorry, Timber, time to put that old fable to rest. Very Happy
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 04:40 am
I also remember a poll from around the time - 1992 that is - in which Perot voters were asked whom they would have voted for if Perot hadnt been in the race. Those who said they would still vote broke down in near-equal parts to Clinton and Bush Sr.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 10:36 am
nimh wrote:
"near statistical certainty", eh? How do you figure that out? I mean, the phrase implies some objective calculations rather than mere punditry after all?

nimh, I look at, and attempt to integrate, a much broader selection of indicators than just pre-election polls. There is of course historical research into the shapes of past elections, but there is more as well.Econometrics is among the analysis methods I have found useful, such as employed by Ray Fair, who's work is perhaps best known among a plethora of others, Abramowitz's Time For Change Model, the model developed by self-professed Leftist Allan Lichtman in his 13 Keys to the Presidency, the methodology described in Armstrong's Principles of Forecasting: A Handbook for Researchers and Practitioners, those of Von Neumann and Morganstern in their Theory of Games and Economic Behavior, and a number of other parameters and considerations. Apart from the two models developed by Abramowitz and Lichtman, which are specifically election analyis tools, the basis for my conjecture essentially is developed from tools I've found useful in the trading of financial instruments. As my portfolio consitently performs well ahead of the curve, I feel comfortable with my similarly derived political extrapolations.

Now, if only the blasted telecoms would perform to the expectations I've bull-headedly held for them, I'd be a real happy camper.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 01:27 pm
An American Research Group poll showing Kerry 7 points in the lead, like it did last week, doesnt say much - ARG state polls have consistently been polling Kerry a handful of percentage points higher than others.

But now Quinnipiac has Kerry with a 6-7 point lead, too. With Nader: Kerry 47, Bush 41. Without Nader: Kerry 49 Bush 42. Kerry is winning independents by 17 points.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 11:38 pm
Gallup's latest, as also reported in USA Today, shows Bush-Cheney 48%-46% over Kerry-Edwards in a 3-way, Nader garnering 3%, among Likely Voters. Dropping Nader out gives The Incumbent a 3 point 50%-47% lead, while among Registered Voters, the 2-way is a bit tighter, at 48%-47% for Bush Cheney. Of more interest, however, is The President's 51% Approval Rating; as the USA Today article points out, no president who has had a 50% or greater Gallup Poll Approval Rating at this point in the campaign year has lost the November election. Still, the most notable aspect of this Gallup is that it again this week, as last, is the outlier, most of the rest showing a Kerry-Edwards advantage of anywhere from 1 to 7 points.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 03:58 am
Pew Research poll has Kerry/Edwards in the lead, but only by 2%: 47% to 45%, with 2% for Nader and 6% Other/Unsure. Compared to just less than a month ago, before the Convention, thats 1% up for both Bush and Kerry.

Both parties are solid: 93% of Republicans support Bush, only 4% Kerry; 91% of Democrats support Kerry, only 5% Bush. But Kerry leads among independents 48% to 40%. Bush has a 8% lead among men, Kerry a 10% lead among women.

I must admit I'm impressed by how the Bush admin has been playing this, especially this post-Convention time. Apart from the Viet Vets "for Truth" smears, which it formally has nothing to do with, there havent been all too sharp attacks on the Dem Convention's stuff; but instead, judging on the msnbc.com, usatoday.com and local newspapers sites, the admin has succeeded in keeping some kind of War on Terrorism item on the mainstream media's frontpage almost every single day. And of course, every emphasis on terrorism (rather than Iraq or the homefront) is good for Bush's standing in the polls.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 04:10 am
A dissenting view on the Democratic Convention:

Quote:
Campaign Journal
TNR


08.12.04

RECONSIDERING KERRY'S CONVENTION: Thursday revealed a lot about the state of the campaign. John Kerry tried to shift the conversation to his economic plan, delivering a speech -- "A Stronger America Begins at Home: The Path to Prosperity" -- in California and opening a two-week emphasis on the economy. Meanwhile, BC04 spent today criticizing Kerry for his recent statement about America needing to have a more "sensitive" approach to terrorism.

The dueling messages -- the economy versus the war -- are a reminder that for all the recent talk that Iraq has turned into a liability for Bush and that Kerry has made great strides in how voters view his approach to terrorism, the old conventional wisdom that Kerry needs the campaign to be about the economy while Bush needs it to be about national security has returned.

The shift in emphasis by Kerry suggests his campaign realizes that it may have missed an opportunity by making his convention almost entirely about strength and national security. Kerry's aides insist that there was no bounce available to him because of the polarized electorate, but other Democrats disagree. They point out that numerous polls show there is a majority for change in America. Whether one looks at the percentage who say the country is on the wrong track or the percentage who say Bush should not be re-elected, there are indeed enough voters looking for a new direction that Kerry should have had a bigger bounce.

The most persuasive proponents of this view are Stanley Greenberg and James Carville, who recently released a post-convention memo [PDF] bemoaning Kerry's missed opportunity. The duo note that "the small shift in the vote is disappointing" because "[w]e hoped the convention would have pushed up the Kerry vote at least to the proportion wanting change -- and then some more, reflecting the usual unreality of many voters momentarily taken with all the excitement and hope." They add, "John Kerry did not make broad gains from the convention." Furthermore:

Quote:
On personal and leadership attributes, few moved up more than a few points and some, like cares about you, remained constant. The convention did not diminish any of the negative attributes, like being too liberal, flip flopping and lack of clear ideas, and too ready to raise taxes.

On the issues, the number choosing Kerry barely rose on the economy (up 1 point), education (up 2), taxes (down 2), creating jobs in America (up 2), raising middle class living standards (up 2), and energy independence (no change).

The problem? Greenberg and Carville say Kerry overdid the whole military thing:

Quote:
We think that the bounce was contained largely because the message -- stronger at home and respected in the world -- is defined purely by the convention's focus on strength, military, security and foreign policy. That has shaped the electoral choice, as the regression model shows Iraq, foreign policy and hopefulness as the strongest predictors of the vote. But Kerry is even with Bush on Iraq and up only 4 points on foreign policy. While that is important accomplishment, leaving the message there also leaves Kerry short of the majority that is currently possible.

Kerry worked so hard to neutralize Bush's strengths that he moved the debate completely off his own most advantageous terrain. It's no coincidence that he is now working hard to move it back.

Greenberg and Carville's observations are backed up by data from a Pew Research Center poll [PDF] released today. It bolsters the case that Kerry should pivot to bread and butter Democratic issues. That is apparently the best way for him to reach swing voters.

According to Pew, swing voters have fairly caricatured views of the two candidates. By 51% to 17% swing voters think Bush can handle terrorism better, and by 44% to 24% they think he can handle Iraq better. Talking about these issues seems to be a losing proposition for Kerry. In addition, Bush retains his traditional advantage on character issues. He has big leads among swing voters on every character question Pew asked about, except whether he "cares about people."

On the other hand, Kerry holds lopsided advantages among swing voters on the economy (41% to 28%), education (49% to 23%), jobs (50% to 23%), and health care (52% to 17%). It's no surprise that Kerry is now trying to return to these issues while Bush is sticking to Iraq and questions of character. The campaign seems to have come full circle.

posted 11:32 p.m.
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2004 01:31 pm
Yee-Hah!!

Zogby Shows Kerry Lead Gradually Increasing!!

The Zogby poll, the most accurate poll in predicting presidential races, shows Kerry adding two points to his lead since the convention.

Yes, Republicans, bring on more of the Swift Boat Vets For Truth-the more they talk, the more people like Kerry.

Bush's approval rating increased slightly, but remained below 50%.
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=851

Much can change-Bush's convention hasn't occurred yet, and the debates. But if somebody came up to any candidate last year and asked, "Would you take this position, (Kerry's position right now) on Aug 15?", the answer would be "yes" every time.
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2004 01:56 pm
Quote:
Originally written by Greenberg and Carville:
Kerry worked so hard to neutralize Bush's strengths that he moved the debate completely off his own most advantageous terrain. It's no coincidence that he is now working hard to move it back.


Kerry did the right thing.

Kerry wins the Economic Debate anytime-he can afford to shift emphasis away from it momentarily while he shores up his vulnerability.

People don't need a convention to see that Bush is an economic disaster. The spurt of jobs that has occurred since the start of the year has slowed considerably, and with Bush having lost over a million jobs in three and half years in office when Clinton and Reagan gained 10 million during their terms makes any last minute Bush spurt irrelevant anyway.

The deficit? Oh, please.

Kerry is going to win on the economic issue every time the public picks up the paper from now to November. In his big moment, Kerry wisely established credibility on the one issue that Bush could hurt him on, then turned his attention toward the economy, where he has always enjoyed higher marks than his opponent.

It is said that a mediocre pro athlete works on his particular strength, because that is why he got promoted to the big leagues. But the stars-the players who don't have to worry about merely making the team-work most on their weaknesses. They know that they are almost certain to win the game unless their weakness results in some kind of disaster.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 04:42 am
kelticwizard wrote:
Kerry did the right thing.

I think I agree with you ... I'm not feeling very confident about it, but I think you're right.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 05:31 am
For a moment there, the investors at the IEM 2004 had Kerry in the lead again - they're definitely back to tied.

http://128.255.244.60/graphs/Pres04_WTA.png
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 05:09 am
Ryan Lizza today in TNR's Campaign Journal:

Quote:
COMING HOME: I noted a while back that recent polling by John Green of the University of Akron showed that despite a concerted effort Bush has done nothing to blunt the traditional Democratic advantage among Jewish voters. In Green's survey the sample size for Jews was actually very small, but a much larger poll out today by Greenberg Quinlan Rosner Research confirms that Bush has made no inroads. The numbers look almost identical to what VNS exit polls found in 2000. Here are the highlights:

---
Senator Kerry maintains a very strong lead over President Bush within the Jewish community. Senator Kerry leads President Bush by a margin of 75 percent to 22 percent. Senator Kerry's lead is as strong as the American Jewish vote was in 2000 for then-Vice President Gore over then-Governor Bush; respondents voted in 2000 for Gore over Bush by a margin of 76 percent to 21 percent.

** American Jewish support for Senator Kerry is extremely solid. Fully 78 percent of Kerry supporters indicated that there is "no chance" that they will vote for President Bush, while only 52 percent of Bush supporters are solid in their support.

** Jewish voters overwhelmingly agree with Senator Kerry on the issues--including on Israel and the war against terrorism. On the issue of abortion, for example, American Jews believe that Senator Kerry does a better job on the issue than President Bush by a margin of 85-15 percent. On the issue of the economy and jobs, respondents believe Senator Kerry will do a better job by a margin of 79-21 percent. Even on the issues of Israel and America's war on terrorism, American Jews overwhelmingly believe Senator Kerry will do a better job, both by a margin of 66-34 percent. Only 24 percent of respondents said they were closer to President Bush on Israel than Senator Kerry.

** President Bush is deeply unpopular among American Jews. President Bush is seen as favorable by only 20 percent of respondents; a stunning 73 percent see him unfavorably. Conversely, Senator Kerry is seen as favorable by 59 percent of the respondents, while only 27 percent view him unfavorably.

** An amazing 77 percent of respondents believe the country is headed in the wrong direction. The two greatest concerns of respondents are in the areas of the economy and jobs, and terrorism and national security--both areas in which Senator Kerry is strongly preferred by American Jews, according to this survey.
---

I'd say with the exception of their efforts to woo Jews, blacks, Hispanics, and Catholics, Karl Rove's and George W. Bush's strategy to bring traditionally Democratic groups into the Republican fold is going swimmingly.

posted 5:02 p.m.
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 12:02 am
Purely subjectively, I just sense people are simply getting sick of Bush.

I sensed the same feeling about his father in the last few months of his term.

The similarities are there. Again, this is my subjective sense of what is going on.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 07:27 am
From the current New Yorker:

Quote:


http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040823fa_fact
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