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If you were a bookie... Polls and bets on the 2004 elections

 
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 04:25 pm
Indeed, PDiddle, a big shift in TN but I reckon we'd have to check with nimh to find out about Zogby. I've got their history in a folder here somewhere but it's probably under an empty pizza box.
If what you claim to see in TN is right, then VA and NC could also move towards Kerry.
Re my state of VA: I doubt that we would go for Kerry but here are a few factors to consider:
--Northern VA (DC suburbs) is rocking right now in new job creation. Heavily Dem.
--Our former Gov, Doug Wilder (the first black gov in the south since Reconstruction) is running for local office in Richmond. He will turn out the votes there but also, if Kerry/Edwards embrace him, could play a role in the rest of the state. He is well respected as being a good man.
--Edwards, from our neighboring state of NC, could work his charm; talking to the dirt farmers of the southern part of our state.
What it will probably come down to in VA is the Tidewater area where all of the military people are.
How will these mostly Navy people vote?
Thank you for reading this. Tell us about your state and its electoral votes. -rjb-
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 05:40 am
Quote:
New poll smiles on Kerry
Despite tie, momentum is with Democrat
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 05:45 am
The TN poll was one of those Zogby Internet polls, sample based on voluntary registration on political websites and such, rather than on an arbitrary selection of phone numbers ... not reliable.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 07:31 am
Rasmussen has been showing some interesting trending. In the Whitehouse matchup, Kerry showed a lead of as much as 4 points briefly, more or less, if a bit belatedly, following the Edwards appointment, but over the past 5 days, that has evaporated and Bush the Younger (soon to be Bush the Greater Mr. Green ) has regained a slim 1-or-2 point edge. Meanwhile, The President's Job approval, which has not been below 50% since July 2, has reached 53%, its highest in over 6 weeks. Perhaps even more interesting, and indicative, is that the generic Congressional Ballot, which over the past year has been showing a consistent 4-to-7 point Democratic edge has narrowed significantly, dipping to a tie July 18th, from whence it has managed to eke out a 3 point advantage.

The Economic Confidence figures, though fluctuating a bit, nonetheless are above Year-ago, 180, and 90-day-ago figures, while the number of respondants rating the economy as good-to-excellent is at a near-term high. Partisan breakdown there is strongly evident, with 51% of Democrats opining The Nation is in recession, vs only 19% of Republicans and 32% of independents being like-minded. 68% of Republicans see the economy as good-to-excellent, while only 19% of Democrats share the opinion, a relative spread which has remained essentially constant so far this year.

Over the past month, those who opine The US is safer today than before 9/11 have steadily increased, notching up a 7 point gain, standing now at 43%, and on the "How is President Bush handling the sitution in Iraq", The President enjoys his best showing in nearly 2 months. On the "Who is a better leader" question Kerry stands at a 12 point deficit, with 36% to The Incumbent's 48%, consistent with results reported since early June and in line with results since Kerry became the apparent Democrat nominee. Interesting there is that among Independents, Kerry today garners 30% whereas a week ago he pulled 37%

While none of the individual numbers in and of themselves mean much if anything, considered in the aggregate and with an eye toward across-the-board trendings, they well may show an evolution in overall voter perception, an evolution not confidence-inspiring for The Opposition; by an average of then-contemporary polls, at this relative point in 1988, challenger Dukakis had an upper-teens advantage over the incumbent Reagan.

Its still a long time 'till November.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 05:14 pm
timberlandko wrote:
While none of the individual numbers in and of themselves mean much if anything, considered in the aggregate and with an eye toward across-the-board trendings, they well may show an evolution in overall voter perception, an evolution not confidence-inspiring for The Opposition

Well, Timber, you yourself always emphasized how important it is not to go on a single poll, but to keep your eye on how the collective of polls is moving ...

And in my overview of the average of all two-way races, I have Kerry/Edwards with a 3,4% lead over Bush/Cheney in the second ten days of July, compared with 4,1% in the first ten days (Edwards bounce) - and a 1,2% Bush lead in the period before that.

A 3,4% Kerry lead on average - thats still the third best he's ever done in a ten-day period all year ...

There are two new polls on Pollingreport.com today, one by Fox and one by CNN/USA Today/Gallup.

On job approval, interestingly enough, the CNN/Gallup one has Bush inching up, while the Fox one has him slipping down - resulting in the two polls agreeing more with each other than they usually do ;-)

CNN/Gallup:
Bush Approve 49% (+2)
Bush Disapprove 47% (-2)

Fox:
Bush Approve 47% (-2)
Bush Disapprove 45% (+1)

Same with the election match-ups. Fox, which suddenly jumped up to a 6% lead for Bush last month (and remained the only poll which had his lead anywhere near such proportions) is now back to earth again, with Bush and Kerry tied. CNN/Gallup earlier this month had a 4% lead for Kerry/Edwards, but thats down to 2% again now.

CNN/Gallup:
Kerry/Edwards 49% (-1)
Bush/Cheney 47% (+1)

Fox:
Kerry 44% (+2)
Bush 44% (-4)

Interestingly, Fox this time also has numbers for "likely voters" - the above being the results for "registered voters" - and among "likely voters", Kerry actually has a 1% lead. Normally you would have expected Bush to do better among the smaller sample of motivated voters. Another sign of Kerry's support solidifying.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 05:38 pm
The Casinos have now moved to even money as well, which to me, is the most accurate tell. They put their money where their mouths are.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 06:04 pm
UPDATE ON North Carolina--
Bush Talks To God--Gets Big Lead-- 15% among 'likely voters'--- 6% among all registered voters... Wonder which is 'likely' to occur...

July 15, 2004
Bush-Cheney Ticket Leads in Edwards' Home State
Likely voters in North Carolina suggest little change in voting pattern from 2000

by David W. Moore
GALLUP NEWS SERVICE

PRINCETON, NJ -- A CNN/USA Today/Gallup survey of likely voters in North Carolina shows President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney with a healthy lead over Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry and his running mate, North Carolina Sen. John Edwards in the race for the White House. While Edwards is personally quite popular among North Carolina voters, the addition of his name does not appear to give the Democratic ticket any greater appeal to the state's electorate than the Democratic candidates in 2000, when Vice President Al Gore and his running mate, Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman, lost to Bush and Cheney in that state by 13 points.

The poll, conducted July 9-11, three days after Kerry chose Edwards as the Democratic vice presidential candidate, shows Bush beating Kerry by six points among all registered voters in the state (49% to 43%), and by an even larger margin of 15 points among the most likely voters (54% to 39%). In both cases, independent candidate Ralph Nader and his running mate, Peter Camejo, receive 4% of the vote. In 2000, Bush won the state by a 56% to 43% margin.

This is despite Edwards' popularity in his home state -- 63% of registered voters in North Carolina view him favorably, while just 29% have an unfavorable view of him. By comparison, 55% of North Carolina voters view Bush favorably and 49% view Kerry favorably.

While the poll shows the Democratic ticket no better off among likely voters than Gore and Lieberman were in the 2000 election, many voters believe the choice of Edwards as Kerry's running mate will influence their 2004 vote for president. About 3 in 10 say they are now more likely to vote for Kerry, while about 1 in 10 say they are less likely. About 6 in 10 say their vote is not affected one way or the other.

The poll also shows that among registered voters, 58% say Edwards shares their values, and 65% say he "cares about the needs of people like you."

**Voters are more ambivalent about Edwards' political experience, with only 51% saying he has enough experience to be an effective president if it becomes necessary.**

----
When do we start betting? Will we bet state by state? Percentages?
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 06:08 pm
How will you handicap those with a hot line to God...?

Dialing...

<hee>
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 06:20 pm
Quote:
Poll: Kerry has Hispanic vote locked up
Republicans fail to make inroads in key group
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 06:25 pm
Sofia wrote:
UPDATE ON North Carolina--

Not to come across as too anal - but there's been two polls from NC since that Gallup one, and Gallup's seems to have been a bit of an outlier.

E.g.:

6/30/04 Rasmussen
Bush 49% Kerry 42% Bush +7

7/12/04 Gallup
Bush 56% Kerry 41% Bush +15

7/12/04 Mason-Dixon
Bush 48% Kerry 45% Bush +3

7/14/04 Research2000
Bush 49% Kerry 44% Bush +5

I do think Bush will still win NC - but with nothing like a 15% lead.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2004 09:39 am
This morning, RealClearPolitic's multi-poll average shows a +1.8 Presidential Job Approval spread, 49% Approve, 47.2% Disapprove, for the period 7/17-7/21. For the same period, a 45.3%/45.3% tie is called for a 3-way matchup, while dropping Nader from the equation yields a 2 point Kerry Lead, 47.5% to 45.5%. It will be most interesting to watch for the Convention Bounce effect to kick in next week, and to see how that plays out over the coming weeks. I think the magnitude and duration of the bounce, as measured across the spectrum of polls over time, will be more closely indicative of overall voter sentiment than will be any other measure. If the convention bounce does not handily surpass the Edwards bounce, the Kerry camp likely has much cause for alarm.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2004 12:15 pm
Nah, I think we already discussed that the bounce wont be anywhere as big as it tends to be normally, whether its with the Dem convention or the Rep one.

Political camps are more solid than in other elections and both candidates have pretty much already "brought home" their own party's registered voters and their traditional leaners among Independents, something that normally happens only when the Convention takes place. Plus, the conventions will get much less airtime than normally.

I'd be highly surprised if the bounce for either convention gets near double digits ...

In fact, I'll be kinda surprised if either candidate gets anything over a 6-point or so lead across different polls at any point in time until the elections - except, perhaps, if Osama gets caught or if there is a terrorist attack ...
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2004 01:17 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Rasmussen has been showing some interesting trending. In the Whitehouse matchup, Kerry showed a lead of as much as 4 points briefly, more or less, if a bit belatedly, following the Edwards appointment, but over the past 5 days, that has evaporated and Bush the Younger (soon to be Bush the Greater Mr. Green ) has regained a slim 1-or-2 point edge. [..] Perhaps even more interesting, and indicative, is that the generic Congressional Ballot, which over the past year has been showing a consistent 4-to-7 point Democratic edge has narrowed significantly, dipping to a tie July 18th, from whence it has managed to eke out a 3 point advantage.

Hehheh ... ok, cheap shot, I know ... but these are today's Rasmussen numbers:

President: Kerry 48 .. Bush 45 (could be one of those three-day spikes induced by a new set of respondents tho)
Congress: Dem 46 .. GOP 37 (definitely not a spike, as the Dem lead has grown gradually over the past three days)

The Congress numbers are the best, ex aequo, for the Dems at least since May 25 - since then, they've only had a lead this size on July 12 and June 21, and never a larger one.

Wonder why? The intel report?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2004 01:18 pm
I do go along with the notion a big bounce is unlikely for either candidate ... certainly agreeing with you that anything approaching the double-digit range is all but out-of-the-question. I do expect The Incumbent to reap benefit from continued economic strengthening; it takes that sort of thing several months to sink in to the voter consciousness, and the timing this cycle is advantageous to The Current Administration. National Security remains a volatile issue, with developments there much less predictable than on the economic front. A reasonably-to-be-anticipated reduction in Own-Force casualty rate in Iraq over the coming months likewise will do Bush the Younger some good. I expect also the wedge issue of Gay Rights/Gay Marriage will play increasingly to The President's advantage. I really see nothing apart from the likes of a major neutralization of a key terror figure such as bin Laden, al Zarqawi, or Mullah Omar, a major terrorist attack successful or otherwise on US soil or involving the upcoming Olympics, or a sudden escalation of tensions between the US and any of Iran, DPRK, or Syria providing any opportunity for a dramatic shift in pre-election polling, though the occurrance of any of those would sorely inconvenience Kerry IMO. What I do anticipate is an incremental, gradual, and eventually decisive shift away from Kerry following the Republican Convention. I also suspect pre-election polling will prove to have underindicated the actual November performance of Republican candidates in general.

As has so frequently has been said, we shall see.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2004 06:12 pm
Posting the article in full, cause its probably for subscribers only - sorry for the lengthy post. Subject-relevant bits are highlighted.

Quote:
BUSH LOSES HIS BASE
White Flight


by John B. Judis & Ruy Teixeira
Post date: 07.23.04
Issue date: 08.02.04

Martinsburg, West Virginia

Sweat streams down Terry's face as he pushes a lawnmower up the street toward his home in Martinsburg, a small town in West Virginia's eastern panhandle. Middle-aged, balding, and paunchy, Terry used to work in a local factory but is now on disability because of an accident. Asked his opinion of President George W. Bush and the Iraq war, he says he used to like Bush and, at first, he thought it was a "good idea" to invade Iraq. But he has now changed his mind. "They shouldn't have gone over there," he says. "They are killing a whole lot of innocent people. It isn't worth it. They already caught the guy. They should have gotten the troops out then."

Christine, who works for a government agency, is sitting in her front yard, overseeing a garage sale. Like others on her block, she has a pride in the United States flag prominently displayed. But her support for the troops in Iraq doesn't extend to the war itself. "I don't think it's been worth it," she says. "I don't know why we blow someplace up and then spend so much to rebuild it when we have our own issues over here. I did support it when we went over. But now I don't think we had any reason to go over there." She says she hasn't decided who to vote for but is leaning toward John Kerry.

Terry and Christine are members of the white working class--comprising people, ranging from clerks to factory workers to technicians, without four-year college degrees. Since 1968, Republican presidential candidates have relied heavily on these voters to win elections. In 2004, Bush will need to win them decisively to carry battleground states like West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Ohio, or Missouri. But he may not, thanks in large measure to growing dissatisfaction with the Iraq war. Perhaps no other group's views have changed so dramatically since the U.S. invasion, and perhaps no other group's mounting opposition to the war is as ominous for Bush's reelection hopes.

Alienated by the civil rights movement, and later by antiwar protesters and feminists, white, working-class voters began transferring their loyalty from New Deal Democrats to conservative Republicans in the 1960s. They gave large majorities to Richard Nixon in 1972, Ronald Reagan in 1980 and 1984, and George H.W. Bush in 1988--more than making up for rising Democratic support among professionals and minorities. Bill Clinton, with his mix of economic populism, New Democrat social philosophy, and folksiness, narrowly carried these voters in 1992 and 1996, but Al Gore lost them by 17 percent in 2000. That's a big reason Gore failed to carry Ohio, Missouri, Louisiana, Arkansas, and West Virginia--all states Clinton had won. The shift to the GOP was even more dramatic among what one might call the working-class elite--skilled, white workers who had some specialized training after high school. Gore lost these voters by 20 percent in 2000, and Democratic congressional candidates lost them by a whopping 24 percent in 2002.

White, working-class voters make up the bulk of voters in many battleground states. In West Virginia, for example, they comprise 74 percent of the electorate; in Missouri, 64 percent; in Ohio and Pennsylvania, just over 60 percent. If Bush wins white, working-class voters in the battleground states by more than ten points, he should carry most of them. But, if his advantage falls below this margin, he will be in trouble. And that's what seems to be happening.

In late May and early June, Gallup polls showed white, working-class voters, who had favored Bush over Gore by 17 percent in 2000, favoring him over Kerry by an average of only 50 to 42 percent. Moreover, Bush led among workers with some college by only 49 to 44 percent--a difference of 15 points from the 2000 election. Since these are national figures and since white workers in battleground states are substantially more Democratic than white workers elsewhere, one has to assume Bush's margins are even smaller--and perhaps nonexistent--in West Virginia and other Midwestern battlegrounds.

There are many reasons for this shift, but one stands out: a change in white, working-class perceptions of the Iraq war. These voters usually favor Democrats on economics, health care, and Social Security but strongly favor Republicans on national security and cultural issues. As they have grown disillusioned with the war in Iraq, however, they have lost their confidence in Bush and the GOP.

In June 2003, according to Gallup, 65 percent of white, working-class voters thought it was "worth going to war" in Iraq, while only 33 percent disagreed. By late May 2004, only 52 percent thought the war was worth fighting, and 46 percent thought it was not. The change among workers with some college was even more dramatic. They went from 70 to 30 percent in favor of the war to only 52 to 46 percent, a 34-point swing.

Other groups, including senior citizens, minorities, young voters, and voters with postgraduate education, have also become disillusioned with the war, but they were not as supportive to begin with. White, working-class voters were the bastion of pro-war sentiment. And, unlike minority voters or postgrads, they were also thoroughly supportive of Bush's presidency. So, while the war probably hasn't reduced Bush's already slim support among minority voters, it is undermining his support among the white working class, perhaps his most crucial voting bloc.

In 1968, some white, working-class voters deserted Democratic presidential candidate Hubert Humphrey over their opposition to the Vietnam War. But their reasons for opposing the war were different from those of the antiwar protesters. They didn't object to the war's immorality, but to its futility, the waste of lives and resources on a battle that could not be won, at least not in the manner in which it was being fought.

The same distinction prevails today. Many voters in Martinsburg don't object to the invasion but to the occupation. Like Terry, they think the military should have gone in, captured Saddam Hussein, then left. They don't like the idea of sending troops and funds to rebuild Iraq. Don, a construction worker wearing a Chicago Bears cap, says, "I don't think it is helping us at all. We are sending all our resources and money out there."

But, as these West Virginians have learned that the Iraqis didn't possess weapons of mass destruction and were not allied with Al Qaeda, they have also begun to wonder whether the war was necessary at all. That has created a special kind of resentment in a state that has the third highest percentage of National Guard troops mobilized for the war and where almost everyone knows someone serving in Iraq. Asked about Bush and the war, Shirley, a housewife holding a garage sale in front of the Moose Lodge, responds, "I have just one thing to say: Bring my son home."

Still, Bush is not getting routed in Martinsburg. In a Saturday walk around the town's blue-collar neighborhoods, about one-third of those interviewed expressed support for the president and the war. Their support seemed to hinge on the belief that, by invading Iraq, the military was also fighting Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. Richard, a landscaper, says, "They are all tied to the same string. That's why the Iraqis are fighting us."

One person was critical of the war but still supportive of Bush. "I think we have another Vietnam getting started," says Jim, who runs a lawnmower repair business out of his yard. "We should have done it and gotten out of there." But he still prefers Bush to Kerry. "At least I know where George stands," he says. "You listen to Kerry, and you don't know which side of the fence he stands on."

For the most part, however, people in Martinsburg seem to reflect the national polls, which show a close correlation between support or opposition to the war and support or opposition to Bush's presidency. Says Brenda, who, as a hair stylist at J.C. Penney, hears political arguments all day and who opposes the war herself, "Nobody is in the middle on this issue." This division among white, working-class voters is bad news for Bush. With the rest of the nation closely divided, Bush needs to win big with this demographic. If support for the war among the white working class continues to erode, so will Bush's chances of reelection.

John B. Judis is a senior editor at TNR and a visiting scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Ruy Teixeira is senior fellow at The Century Foundation.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2004 07:19 pm
edit

not pertinent to the topic
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2004 08:02 pm
nimh wrote:
ok, cheap shot, I know ... but these are today's Rasmussen numbers ...


No cheapshot there at all, nimh ... the update does show the spread opening up again, after having narrowed for few days. One thing sorta odd though, is that the 7/23 updated Electoral College guestimate has narrowed noticeably; Bush now at a series high 208, up 11 from 7/12's 197, Kerry at 227, down 27 from the immediate previous 254 call, his series high. Since 6/9, when his colum showed 177, Bush has picked up 31 points, while Kerry, despite interim gains, is dead even over the same period. Gotta wonder what's going on there. Averaging each column shows Bush with an effective 12 point compared-to-average pickup, while Kerry's present tally reflects a five point negative departure from his running average.

Interesting.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2004 06:08 pm
What a mixed bunch of indicators the polls are giving us at the moment! It's quite confusing. Let's pick four out from them:

1. The polls matching up Kerry/Edwards and Bush/Cheney keep showing an advantage for the Dems - but a slight one. It seems the Dem candidates are holding on to the Edwards bounce they got some three weeks ago - but that bounce was modest.

Basically, what was on average a 1-3% lead for Kerry from mid-May through mid-June and a 1% lead for Bush in late-June, has been a 3-4% lead for Kerry since the beginning of this month.

Last two results: Quinnipiac has Kerry leading 46% to 43%, Time has Kerry leading 50% to 45%. I already mentioned the previous two: Fox with a Kerry lead 45% to 44% and CNN/Gallup with a Kerry lead of 49% to 47%. Here's the graphs (that will need revising by the end of the month):

[EDIT: graphs shown below are by now updates from after the time of this post]

http://home.wanadoo.nl/anepiphany/images/bush-kerry.gif

http://home.wanadoo.nl/anepiphany/images/bush-kerry_average.gif


2. In the job approval polls, however, Bush is doing quite well this past week or two. Quinnipiac has his approval unchanged at 46% compared to two months ago, but his disapproval down 4% to also 46%. NBC/WSJ had his approval up 3% (to 48%) compared to half a month before, and his disapproval down 2% to 46%. Gallup/CNN had, as noted, his approval up 2% (to 49%) compared to half a month earlier and his disapproval down 2% to 47%. Time now has his approval up 2% to 50% compared to half a month ago, but his disapproval also up 2% to 47% - still not a bad balance, though. As noted, Fox had Bush's numbers worsening but still had his approval 2% higher than his disapproval, while the LA Times had the margin between the two worsen for Bush by 1%, but still, with approval at 51%, perhaps an acceptable enough result.

http://home.wanadoo.nl/anepiphany/images/bush-job-ratings_2001-2004_average.gif


3. However, Bush isnt the only one whose ratings are going up. Pundits had worried that the prominence of controversial figureheads like Ted Kennedy and both of the Clintons at the Dem Convention might turn away Independent voters who are a bit queasy about all that Democratic luggage. But a new Gallup/CNN poll registers distinctly better favourability ratings for all these people than they were half a year ago. Which means not just that their appearance is perhaps no liability after all, but also that the general mood apparently veers towards a rehabilitation of all the classic Democrats.

For example, Hillary now polls at 56% favourable and 38% unfavourable. In October last year, that was still 51/44 - and in March last year, the numbers were a net negative at 45/46. Bill is polling 54% favourable and 43% unfavourable, which compares to something more like the reverse (46/51) in March last year. Even Ted Kennedy is polling at 50% favourable against 39% unfavourable, which compares to a net negative rating last March (42/47) and a tie last year (44/44).

4. Asked about whether the country is headed in the right direction or off on the wrong track, two polls out last week showed a minute, resp. significant change for the better compared to May/early June - but with the numbers nevertheless still worse than they ever were in 2001, 2002 or 2003. (Eg, NBC/WSJ now has 36% saying "right direction" and 48% "wrong track", while the LA Times had 39% "right direction" and 54% "wrong track".) For a country on the road to economic recovery, thats pretty baffling.
0 Replies
 
Thok
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 01:52 am
Rooting For Kerry
Young voters still prefer the senator to the president. But the majority of under-30s feel the Dems are too liberal, according to the latest GENEXT poll.


Quote:


THE POLL
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 07:20 am
Re: the Bush vs Kerry-average of all polls graph above: I havent got a clue why Excel made the average of the two last polls (-1 and -5) be -3,667. I doublechecked the previous averages, they're OK, just for this last period, for which we only have two polls yet, it came out with -3,667 as the average. Weird. Corrected it manually now and updated the graph above.
0 Replies
 
 

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