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god is beyond logic.

 
 
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 10:37 am
I am an atheist, but i do think if god exist, he exist beyond logical necessity. That is, he must be beyond de re logical contradictions. The "de re" part means that it refers to things. The stardard view is that there are no true de re contradictions. The "de re" interpretation is oppose to de dicto interpretation. I don` t really care for "de dicto" here, so i just mention it for completness. For an example of de re contradiction, see here: De dicto and de re - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The standard view is:

1) there are no true de re contradiction.


My view is;


2) god is beyond de re logically necessity.

The corollary of 2 is:

3) god can make a true de re contradiction happen.


the corollary of 3 is:

4) God must exist in an impossible world(Impossible world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Reason: Let S be the set of all possible, and impossible worlds, where the former is such that de re logically contradiction is always false, while the latter is such that de re contradiction is always true. Since god is in 2, then god cannot be in one of the logically possible worlds. Thus, god must exist in one of these impossible worlds.


5) God must be in all worlds.
reason: given 2. since God is beyond de re logical contradictions. It much also be beyond all the possible worlds. It much also be in all possible worlds. Since god is beyond all possible worlds, and it is in at least one impossible world, then god must be in all impossible worlds as well since there is no specification on one particular impossible world. Thus, 5.
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Zetetic11235
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 12:34 pm
@vectorcube,
Go read Frege's On Sense and Reference and On Concept and Object Wittgenstein's Tractatus and then Ayer's Language Truth and Logic. I think you will have a solid grasp of what is going on. For good measure (and a slightly different perspecitve) you might read the works of Joseph Campbell.

Joseph Campbell: God is a metaphor for that which trancends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that.

If you read the Tractatus here you migh find something of use.
vectorcube
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 03:46 pm
@Zetetic11235,
Zetetic11235;78836 wrote:
Go read Frege's On Sense and Reference and On Concept and Object Wittgenstein's Tractatus and then Ayer's Language Truth and Logic. I think you will have a solid grasp of what is going on. For good measure (and a slightly different perspecitve) you might read the works of Joseph Campbell.

Joseph Campbell: God is a metaphor for that which trancends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that.

If you read the Tractatus here you migh find something of use.



Ok, do you have anything to say regarding this post?
Leviathen249
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 04:22 pm
@vectorcube,
If God is a metaphor for just being a good person and all that good bible stuff it would be fine. But people actually do believe in a great creator so they must have defined him. Now, if God is actually omnipotent and all that then he isn't bound by humans definition of him. Just because we defined him doesn't mean he is our definition so he can be above logic I think. I mean if he is so powerful then he doesn't need to be held down by human logig and/or definition.

I'm agnostic, just so you all know.
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 04:34 pm
@Leviathen249,
Logic is simply an internally consistent system, maybe God is logical but using a different system.
Leviathen249
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 04:39 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead;78868 wrote:
Logic is simply an internally consistent system, maybe God is logical but using a different system.


Exactly, God may not be playing by our rules.
0 Replies
 
vectorcube
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 11:17 pm
@Leviathen249,
Leviathen249;78865 wrote:
If God is a metaphor for just being a good person and all that good bible stuff it would be fine. But people actually do believe in a great creator so they must have defined him. Now, if God is actually omnipotent and all that then he isn't bound by humans definition of him. Just because we defined him doesn't mean he is our definition so he can be above logic I think. I mean if he is so powerful then he doesn't need to be held down by human logig and/or definition.

I'm agnostic, just so you all know.



I don` t see how god is a metaphor in my post.

---------- Post added 07-23-2009 at 12:19 AM ----------

GoshisDead;78868 wrote:
Logic is simply an internally consistent system, maybe God is logical but using a different system.



what is this mean? eloberate.
0 Replies
 
TheLonelyPuritan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 11:30 pm
@vectorcube,
I would imagine that if God created this universe, it would be, in a sense, a reflection of Himself. That is to say, it's laws (in this case, logic), would reflect His very nature, and so logic is not something that is above or below God, but rather something that flows from His very nature. With that in mind, God can not do a de re, as it contradicts His nature, and God can't contradict Himself. Just my thoughts here.
vectorcube
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 11:53 pm
@TheLonelyPuritan,
TheLonelyPuritan;78929 wrote:
I would imagine that if God created this universe, it would be, in a sense, a reflection of Himself. That is to say, it's laws (in this case, logic).



How is "logic" part of god` s nature? e.g, it is a law of logic that:

1. p& q => p

How is 1 part of god?
TheLonelyPuritan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 12:04 am
@vectorcube,
vectorcube;78930 wrote:
How is "logic" part of god` s nature? e.g, it is a law of logic that:

1. p& q => p

How is 1 part of god?

I would think logic is... God's thought process, in a sense. Not that we can ever understand even a fraction of God's thinking, I believe that it's safe to assume that we can understand something of a fraction of it, if that makes sense.
Take for instance, the Biblical account of God. His actions always seem to have some logical reasoning behind them, even though He is still described as totally transcendent.
vectorcube
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 12:24 am
@TheLonelyPuritan,
TheLonelyPuritan;78932 wrote:
I would think logic is... God's thought process, in a sense. Not that we can ever understand even a fraction of God's thinking, I believe that it's safe to assume that we can understand something of a fraction of it, if that makes sense.
Take for instance, the Biblical account of God. His actions always seem to have some logical reasoning behind them, even though He is still described as totally transcendent.




So, you are saying logic is god` s thoughts? If so, then could god not have other thoughts?( besides logic)
TheLonelyPuritan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 12:32 am
@vectorcube,
vectorcube;78936 wrote:
So, you are saying logic is god` s thoughts? If so, then could god not have other thoughts?( besides logic)

Are you asking me if God can have thoughts that are logical and thoughts that are illogical, or that God can have multiple streams of thought; some logical, some nonsensical and without reason?

As for the first question, I would answer yes, if by 'thinking illogical thoughts', we mean giving mental assent to things that are not logical.
For the second, I would probably object to that, because I don't believe God can contradict Himself. Of course, this contradiction would only apply to half of God's thought (the logical part), so is half of God's thought then in a state of contradiction with the other? Is God even divisible in such a way, where He can have half His thoughts being in a constant state of contradiction with the other, while the other not being at all affected?
Of course, we can't possibly believe God experiences 'thought' as we do with our minds.
vectorcube
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 05:01 am
@TheLonelyPuritan,
TheLonelyPuritan;78938 wrote:
Are you asking me if God can have thoughts that are logical and thoughts that are illogical, or that God can have multiple streams of thought; some logical, some nonsensical and without reason?
As for the first question, I would answer yes, if by 'thinking illogical thoughts', we mean giving mental assent to things that are not logical.
For the second, I would probably object to that, because I don't believe God can contradict Himself. Of course, this contradiction would only apply to half of God's thought (the logical part), so is half of God's thought then in a state of contradiction with the other? Is God even divisible in such a way, where He can have half His thoughts being in a constant state of contradiction with the other, while the other not being at all affected?
Of course, we can't possibly believe God experiences 'thought' as we do with our minds.



You said logic is a thought of god. well, suppose god has more than one thought, then why should logic be prefered over god` s other thoughts. To be even more clear. Let S be the set of all thought from god S= { x, y, z....}, and say x is logic, then why ought x be the one chosen over other thoughts of god.
TheLonelyPuritan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 07:40 am
@vectorcube,
vectorcube;78956 wrote:
You said logic is a thought of god. well, suppose god has more than one thought, then why should logic be prefered over god` s other thoughts. To be even more clear. Let S be the set of all thought from god S= { x, y, z....}, and say x is logic, then why ought x be the one chosen over other thoughts of god.

Oh, now I see. Well I wasn't saying that logic is a thought of God (I did say thought process, which is my mistake). I proposed that logic might be the thought of God. (i.e. everything God thinks is logical, aside perhaps for giving mental assent to that which is illogical).

Another way to put it, though maybe a little rough... God is the standard of logic, as all logic basically traces back to God (as everything else does), therefore, logic starts within Him. Unless He created it to be totally separate from His person, but even that act of creating logic outside of Himself (thus making it below Him) sounds fairly logical, so logic still finds it's origin from within God, no?
0 Replies
 
Kaynafshar
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 05:09 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead;78868 wrote:
Logic is simply an internally consistent system, maybe God is logical but using a different system.



agreed, god by my standards does not have to abide by "human" logic. i view it as like trying to teach a small child a complicated form of math or science. it would make perfect sense to the teacher, but would be absolutely illogical to the child.
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 06:36 pm
@Kaynafshar,
It depends on what you mean by 'logic' but in regards to absolute logic god has to be consistent and follow foundational requirements.
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 07:47 pm
@Kielicious,
Logic has become a misunderstood Dogma in recent decades. it is not a rule it is not a being, it is not a faith, although many people treat it as such, it is not even one thing. It is a method that relies on presuppositions and ends with an assumption. All something needs to be considered logical is an internally constistent and non contradictory argument built from the original presupposition. The presupposition does not have to be disprovable. I could make a logical argument claiming that fish live in the sky if my pressuposition was that the sky is a large body of water that separates masses of land. It is a method, and thus has no value exept for its efficacy of applicability. It far from has any moral value.

Ex. The argument against mysticism: Mysticim is irrational because there is no sustainable empirical prooff blah blah blah.... this is only true given that the logical argument has the presupposition of empirical materialism... only empirically provable things are real. Many things seem illogical because of cultural trends and scientific dogmatism.

The other issue with logic is that it used interchangeably with rationality. They are not the same thing. To be rational is to be practical in a situation. To be logical is to be rational given a certain set of presupposed conditions that can be abstracted. So it is completely rational and logical to step out of the way of a speeding car. But it is not necessarily illogical to believe in an earth mother or aliens etc...

so as the expansion of the previous post you asked to expand on. God probably is logical and ration given the cuircumstances in which s/he exists
vectorcube
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jul, 2009 04:42 am
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead;79162 wrote:
Logic has become a misunderstood Dogma in recent decades. it is not a rule it is not a being, it is not a faith, although many people treat it as such, it is not even one thing. It is a method that relies on presuppositions and ends with an assumption. All something needs to be considered logical is an internally constistent and non contradictory argument built from the original presupposition. The presupposition does not have to be disprovable. I could make a logical argument claiming that fish live in the sky if my pressuposition was that the sky is a large body of water that separates masses of land. It is a method, and thus has no value exept for its efficacy of applicability. It far from has any moral value.

Ex. The argument against mysticism: Mysticim is irrational because there is no sustainable empirical prooff blah blah blah.... this is only true given that the logical argument has the presupposition of empirical materialism... only empirically provable things are real. Many things seem illogical because of cultural trends and scientific dogmatism.

The other issue with logic is that it used interchangeably with rationality. They are not the same thing. To be rational is to be practical in a situation. To be logical is to be rational given a certain set of presupposed conditions that can be abstracted. So it is completely rational and logical to step out of the way of a speeding car. But it is not necessarily illogical to believe in an earth mother or aliens etc...

so as the expansion of the previous post you asked to expand on. God probably is logical and ration given the cuircumstances in which s/he exists


I dont` t think logic can simply be defined as an internally consistent system since, there are plenty of internally consistent system, but most of them are not logic. Suppose you bite the bullet and say all consistent systems are logical systems, then it would cause more problems for your in a position to justify it.

Your talk about logic can really be said to be about validity. A argument can be valid, but not true. validity is syntax base. Not really what i wanted to talk about. This is de dicto aspect of logic. I am focus on the de re, ontological aspect to logic. They are two different questions.

The part about god is confusing. How is logic part of god` s nature?
markymark phil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jul, 2009 06:40 am
@vectorcube,
This is a circular argument. The only person that can say if a thought is illogical is the person that thought it. In its very essence illogical thought is logical. Go figure.
vectorcube
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jul, 2009 07:23 am
@markymark phil,
markymark;79240 wrote:
This is a circular argument. The only person that can say if a thought is illogical is the person that thought it. In its very essence illogical thought is logical. Go figure.


You seem to be confused. Thought are not "logical". You are using "logical" in the same way people use the word "rational". They are not the same. Logic is a subject. The formal aspect of logic is the test for "validity".

I can have an invalid though. eg:
i can imagine p&q does not imply p. This is invalid, or not "logical", but this reflect nothing on me.
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