The Nature of Sleep

@Poseidon,

Poseidon;75103 wrote:

When you suffer half-awake paralysis, its because your dream body, after dreaming, re-entered your physical body the wrong way around,

you need to go back into the dream state, turn yourself around, and then re-enter the body the correct way,

you may need to practise lucid dreaming a bit
consider it as exercise of the imagination

you can do this by half-entering the dream state
while in your waking mind,
you need to cut yourself off from your senses
and drift inward into your innermost recesses of your being

spiritual connections advised

;-j

Hi Poseiden,

Well, without the experiences, there is no real way for me to connect with what you are saying. But I love this kind of original thinking. Keeps my creative side flowing. Thanks! :detective:

Rich

0 Replies

@richrf,

Its something I read in book 20 years ago, and
I found that it worked perfectly.

Can't take credit for it, but can't remember the book either.

0 Replies

@richrf,

richrf;67188 wrote:

Hi everyone,
For some time, I have been contemplating the nature of sleep. It strikes me as interesting as to how consciousness slips from one state of time and space into another state of no time and no space. Instantaneously in and instantaneously out. Same mind different way of perceiving. The only philosopher that I have read who has really discussed this at all is my favorite Heraclitus. Are there others? Any thoughts?

Very nice topic Richard,

Per usual, i have some really off the wall ideas about the subject.

With respect to your comment:

"It strikes me as interesting as to how consciousness slips from one state of time and space into another state of no time and no space."

Im gonna take you into the realm of M Theory to answer this, but first i should mention, as you probably well know. That lots believe that certain phases of sleep(maybe all?), take place in a dimension, different from the 4 we are aware(width, height, depth, and time). Sometimes referred to as other planes of existence, usually associated with things such as: lucid dreams, astral travel, or perhaps also ordinary dreams as well.

So the transition from one state of time and space(the four i mentioned), into another dimension with no time and no space.

Ok...here is the connection with M Theory:

In M Theory, there are 11 dimensions. Our 4D space time, plus 6 Calabi yau manifolds, plus the boundary for our universe called the Brane.

These Calabi manifolds are measure in Planck Lengths, which basically means the are extremely small, smaller than an atom. Space and time may not even exist within them. So a transition to one of those dimensions, would account for the loss of space and time as you described.

There are 6 of these virtually spaceless dimensions in M Theory, as far as I know, they are identical to one another.

The consciousness doesnt appear to occupy any space in the physical body either.

Just some thoughts on the subject,
Neil

1 Reply

@Neil D,

Neil;75160 wrote:

The consciousness doesnt appear to occupy any space in the physical body either.

Just some thoughts on the subject,
Neil

Hi Neil.

Thanks for the insights.

I've been doing some readings on the holographic model of the universe. Very interesting. Basically it is a two dimensional space, like a hologram, that creates a three dimensional, as a hologram. In this case, the sleep state, I would imagine, would be the 2 dimensional hologram state.

All this stuff is quite fascinating.

Regards,
Rich

1 Reply

@richrf,

Hi Rich

The sleep paralysis or hypnagogic state of sleep is very often the precursor to an out of body experience

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;75243 wrote:

Hi Rich

The sleep paralysis or hypnagogic state of sleep is very often the precursor to an out of body experience

Very interesting Alan.

Has anyone on this forum ever experienced such paralysis states and was aware of them at the time? I myself have not.

Rich

0 Replies

@richrf,

richrf;75232 wrote:

I've been doing some readings on the holographic model of the universe. Very interesting. Basically it is a two dimensional space, like a hologram, that creates a three dimensional, as a hologram. In this case, the sleep state, I would imagine, would be the 2 dimensional hologram state.

All this stuff is quite fascinating.

Hi Rich,

Thanks! I googled "holographic universe", and found a great source of info on the subject. This kind of stuff blows my mind. Im curious to find if there are any similarities with M Theory, and to understand this holographic universe concept a little better.

Here is a link to what i found if you are interested:

The Holographic Universe - Crystalinks

Neil

1 Reply

@Neil D,

Neil;75478 wrote:

Hi Rich,

Thanks! I googled "holographic universe", and found a great source of info on the subject. This kind of stuff blows my mind. Im curious to find if there are any similarities with M Theory, and to understand this holographic universe concept a little better.

Here is a link to what i found if you are interested:

The Holographic Universe - Crystalinks

Neil

Hi Neil,

Yes, this is the link that I referenced in a separate thread.

Yes, I do think that the M Theory was one of the incentives behind the thought process which led to the holographic paradigm. It is fascinating reading. Of course, there is much to deliberate and ponder, but what a great little idea!

Cya around,

Rich

1 Reply

@richrf,

richrf;75484 wrote:

Hi Neil,

Yes, this is the link that I referenced in a separate thread.

Yes, I do think that the M Theory was one of the incentives behind the thought process which led to the holographic paradigm. It is fascinating reading. Of course, there is much to deliberate and ponder, but what a great little idea!

Rich

Should be getting back to the original topic i guess. I may open up a new thread on the holographic universe subject after I read and ponder a bit more. Its kinda hard to swallow right now, that the entire universe is a hologram, and that the "hardness" of matter is just an illusion.

This is even more far out than M Theory. Interesting reading anyways, regardless of whether I believe it in the end.

Neil

0 Replies

@richrf,

The interesting thing about the mind, is that we can use it to imagine such ideas as an 11-dimensional reality.

We can imagine infinite dimensions, plot their dimensions on graphs, etc...

And yet the physical brain is merely 4 dimensions.

Now, in set theory if 'A' has something in it that is not in 'B'
then 'A' cannot be a complete subset of 'B'

So because mind is multi-dimensional, and brain only consists of 4 dimensions,
then it follows that the brain is a subset of mind.

So the dream is no less real than the physical world.

I can barely even begin to describe the exceptionally detailed nature of my dreams.
Strange places, with every little tiny detail as perfect as this world.

Not all my dreams are that clear, or at least I don't recollect them all as being so clear.

Its just that when I am there, even when I am aware I am 'dreaming', I still consider them to be real. Exact detail in the cobblestones. Unique architecture. Marvelous creatures : People sized goldfish, walking on long legs across inately designed bridges.

Often I have dreamt I was talking to the dead, and I am so surprised by what they say and do - just so unexpected, and yet authentic at the same time. I cannot see these dreams as not real. Though I do have more ordinary dreams which are clearly metaphoric messages from my own self - those dreams have a distinctly non-real quality to them.

I would say that more than half my life is in my dreams, and I regard a night where I do not remember at least one vivid dream to be an extreme rarity.

But I have been trying to explore this for most of my life.
Its quite deliberate, but does take years of effort to will oneself to do it.
I am a sucker for curiosity.

1 Reply

@Poseidon,

Poseidon;75756 wrote:

The interesting thing about the mind, is that we can use it to imagine such ideas as an 11-dimensional reality.

We can imagine infinite dimensions, plot their dimensions on graphs, etc...

And yet the physical brain is merely 4 dimensions.

Now, in set theory if 'A' has something in it that is not in 'B'
then 'A' cannot be a complete subset of 'B'

So because mind is multi-dimensional, and brain only consists of 4 dimensions,
then it follows that the brain is a subset of mind.

So the dream is no less real than the physical world.

I can barely even begin to describe the exceptionally detailed nature of my dreams.
Strange places, with every little tiny detail as perfect as this world.

Not all my dreams are that clear, or at least I don't recollect them all as being so clear.

Its just that when I am there, even when I am aware I am 'dreaming', I still consider them to be real. Exact detail in the cobblestones. Unique architecture. Marvelous creatures : People sized goldfish, walking on long legs across inately designed bridges.

Often I have dreamt I was talking to the dead, and I am so surprised by what they say and do - just so unexpected, and yet authentic at the same time. I cannot see these dreams as not real. Though I do have more ordinary dreams which are clearly metaphoric messages from my own self - those dreams have a distinctly non-real quality to them.

I would say that more than half my life is in my dreams, and I regard a night where I do not remember at least one vivid dream to be an extreme rarity.

But I have been trying to explore this for most of my life.
Its quite deliberate, but does take years of effort to will oneself to do it.
I am a sucker for curiosity.

Interesting stuff Poseiden. It's great to read about other people's experiences in dreams, since for the most part, I have only known my own.

I have never dreamed in multi-dimensions so I cannot relate to your experiences.

When I am dreaming, it feels real. It's not like I know I am sleeping. My dreams have images that exist without a sense of time or space. They are there. There is activity, but certainly not in the sense of the awake state.

I have dreamed of talking to my parents who have passed away, but other than that most of my dreams are symbolic figures rather than real people.

It is an interesting state of being to explore. My amazement is how in thousands of years of philosophy, so little of this incredible phenomenon has been discussed. It is like all those hours we spend sleeping does not count. Jung was one of the few to move deeply into the subject, but even he discussed dreams in a rather matter-of-fact manner without suggesting that is amazing the the mind (his collective consciousness) can switch into and out of this state.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Rich

---------- Post added 07-07-2009 at 10:20 PM ----------

Neil;75714 wrote:

Should be getting back to the original topic i guess. I may open up a new thread on the holographic universe subject after I read and ponder a bit more. Its kinda hard to swallow right now, that the entire universe is a hologram, and that the "hardness" of matter is just an illusion.

This is even more far out than M Theory. Interesting reading anyways, regardless of whether I believe it in the end.

Neil

Hi Neil,

Feel free to comment on the Holographic thread that I started, if something interesting comes to your mind.

I just picked up Leonard Susskind's book, where he discusses some of his theories regarding Holographic Universe. I'll let you know if it is worthwhile, after I have a chance to go through it.

Rich

0 Replies

@richrf,

Dreams have always to me been a visceral experience. I feel they are very much a mind state, a mirror image of my true psychological mental health. I can not hide from my dreams, they show me my true fears but also my hopes snd dreams.

1 Reply

@markymark phil,

markymark;79083 wrote:

Dreams have always to me been a visceral experience. I feel they are very much a mind state, a mirror image of my true psychological mental health. I can not hide from my dreams, they show me my true fears but also my hopes snd dreams.

Mine seem to symbolic of my underlying fears in life - as well as tryouts for things I might want to do. It is fascinating how sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night with new ideas of what to do in my life.

Thanks for your comments.

Rich

0 Replies

@richrf,

Dreams appear to have some function, though it's not quite clear what. These things are currently very difficult to examine empirically by nature

But apparently lab rats dream about running mazes:

The Neuroscience of Dreaming : The Frontal Cortex

They may be rehearsing what they've learned

I tend to dream about pop cultural bugaboos like grey aliens and demons. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say they represent all the sh**ty people who have been in my life

1 Reply

@odenskrigare,

odenskrigare;79931 wrote:

Dreams appear to have some function, though it's not quite clear what. These things are currently very difficult to examine empirically by nature

But apparently lab rats dream about running mazes:

The Neuroscience of Dreaming : The Frontal Cortex

They may be rehearsing what they've learned

I tend to dream about pop cultural bugaboos like grey aliens and demons. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say they represent all the sh**ty people who have been in my life

Jung as an interesting take on dreams based upon his years of research. He relates dreams to confronting one's Shadow. It is pretty interesting stuff.

Rich

0 Replies

@richrf,

Yeah but Jung's pretty much full of crap

Like I had the honesty to admit I pulled my guess out of the business end of my alimentary canal, but Jung didn't

btw how are mazes the "shadow" of a rat

btw here's a vivid account of a dream of mine

[indent]I was walking down a beach at some resort type of place at night; the sky was clouded heavily. I could see strange red lights moving together in the sky, like a military airplane formation, and saw no beam producing them. The dream cut to the next day and I walked into some kind of dingy concrete operations center at the end of the beach. I saw the strange red outlines of monkeys on the wall to either side and proceeded through darkness into a lighthouse. There were two lighthouse personnel, both women nearly identical in appearance, wearing white uniforms with vertical pink stripes, and apparently from Isan. Without explaining my presence, or their asking, I asked whether the massive lights that overlooked the beach had anything to do with the formation of red lights I had seen earlier. One of them answered: "No, not at all." (The other remained silent throughout.) She added: "They're used to detect poisonous gases, the byproducts of industry", and at once I could i magine *green* toxic clouds in the night sky, illuminated with bright light, with formations in them like clusters of bubbles or dividing bacteria. She mentioned lead somewhere in there, which is strange because lead probably can't go airborne easily. I was skeptical, and said: "It's daytime, but can you turn on one of the lights? I want to see what it looks like." She complied and started to move one of the great lights into place to turn it on. As she was doing so, a small but vividly detailed "flying saucer" flew in the room. I don't remember running away from it, or them running away from it, but suddenly all three of us were on the other side of the room, not sure what to do. A deep, unintelligible voice started to come from the tiny craft on the ground. I was the first to approach it. Gingerly, I picked it up and examined it. I turned it over, suspecting there might be something important underneath. I saw ordinary colored lights, a circuit board with some mundane English writing and a model make and number on it, bits of excess solder here and there, and the fans that had propelled it. The flying saucer was a hoax. I felt proud of having let curiosity and skepticism overcome fear, and was probably about to say "Guys, it's man-made!", which is of course when I woke up.[/indent]

well I'm pretty sure the dream figures came from a music video I had watched before I went to sleep:

YouTube - Huck Sao Kon Gan - by Laovideos.com

I have no idea how that has to do with my "shadow"

if I were to attempt to give some kind of hazy psychoanalytic meaning to my exposing the saucer as a fraud, I'd say it's how I like to expose pseudoscientific bulls**t, but hey who knows

1 Reply

@odenskrigare,

odenskrigare;79936 wrote:

Yeah but Jung's pretty much full of crap

In your case, probably not. In fact, from what I have observed, he is right on point. Read about projection. Smile

Rich

0 Replies

@richrf,

Read the edit of my post and for the love of Darwin stop doing this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/amongtheomegas/NO_U.jpg

1 Reply

@odenskrigare,

I have so many varied dreams its confusing thinking about it. I often dream about things I think about during the day. I still have occasional dreams about a former girlfriend that i was quite attached to who I havent seen for over 20 years. I Have occasional flying dreams, that when i think about now, seem more like swimming through water then flying through air, occasional running dreams, where i am trying to run but cant seem to gain any speed. sometimes i have really intense nightmares that are so bad i think i force myself to wake up. Some dreams i will be running from something, and i will be in a place that has doors and other passages everywhere, and often come to a dead end where i cant run anymore, and other times i escape.

It varies alot, and there are many more. I can watch a movie, and then have a dream that was formulated from it. Sometimes i remember my dreams vividly, sometimes not. I cant remember what I dreamed about last night, although im sure i did.

This stuff is all pretty incoherent, as are dreams. I dont bother with interpretation. On a final note I will say that on occasion, a vivid dream i have will affect what i do when i wake.

Neil

1 Reply

@Neil D,

Thanks Neil,

Jung has always been a bit opaque for me, but Robin Robertson does a great job of explaining Jung's process of individualization of which dreams play an important role. I am not sure what dreams are all about, but I found that Jung's ideas provide some clues.

Rich

0 Replies

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