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Is science moral?

 
 
Smiley451
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2009 04:08 pm
@Yogi DMT,
It's just another example of opinions, or preferances, more specifically. Would you rather have the people in your city act and behave in a moral and upright way, or would you rather have them carry out their tasks efficiently? While governing our actions based on money might not be the most "moral" thing to do, it keeps everything going, doesn't it?
If someone had gotten lost on the street and had no idea where to go and started asking for directions, but no one would give him the directions unless he paid them. Quite a rude thing to do, wouldn't you say? But if this was the only way to get the people to help him, then it would be necessary for him to pay someone. While it would be ideal for those people to help him for free, they won't, so he needs to pay them.
The world works in a similar manner. While it would be ideal for everyone to work and put their hardest efforts forward without needing to be paid, people simply won't do this. In some cases, obviously, people volunteer their own time and work, but it's very unlikely for a society to work like this.
0 Replies
 
William
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2009 05:37 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;65271 wrote:
If nothing got dirty there wouldn't be janitors... so what?

A person who never sees mud never gets muddy... so what?

If you don't care about the poor guy you never have sympathy... so what?



Something needs to motivate. You think if there was no money things would be better? Ha, can I laugh again without insulting you? Ha...

If there is a mess and someone orders you to clean it up, youll probably tell them to f off, but if the guy hands you ten bucks you might consider it.


No Comment.
William
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2009 05:44 pm
@William,
William;65291 wrote:
No Comment.
William



No comment, is a comment. Wink
William
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2009 06:04 pm
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;65292 wrote:
No comment, is a comment. Wink


Yeah, I know. I just wanted to stress the point. Sometimes it's almost imposssible to keep your mouth shut. Sorry.:whistling:
William
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2009 08:50 pm
@Yogi DMT,
I think there is a moral law. Does that make me religious?
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2009 09:52 pm
@Yogi DMT,
Quote:
I think there is a moral law. Does that make me religious?


Maybe, but it depends on what your moral law encompasses.

Those who are in favor of natural laws would say that survival should dictate morality. But you get a fundamentalist reading those statements and they call the person an animal.

So what exactly does your moral law entail?
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2009 11:41 pm
@Yogi DMT,
Well not completely clear on that, but I feel the idea that morality (or ethics, if you will) is purely a matter of subjective judgement is unsatisfactory. Nevertheless that is the fundamental characteristic of 'secular morality' - that the individual is more or less a law unto themselves. I wonder about that.

I practise Buddhist meditation, and attempt (with greater and lesser degrees of success) to observe the Buddhist precepts. And while Buddhists don't believe in a or the God, they certainly believe that intentional actions have real consequences. You could say that they 'believe in Dharma' but in Buddhism this is quite different to the Christian idea of 'believing in God'. But both Buddhists and Christians believe that there is a moral law, and (at least traditionally) that actions in this life may have consequences in 'the hereafter'.

I am not entirely decided on the issue, but I feel that the individualist idea of morality, while it is very good in some respects, is also deficient in others. I am drawn towards the Buddhist ethical code.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2009 12:16 am
@Yogi DMT,
The thing with Buddhism is about trying to reduce the amount of suffering either for yourself or for others. So it adopts a morality based off causing the least amount of suffering.

It will say lying is bad or has negative consequences or produces suffering. But lying does not do this in all it's cases.

So really when it comes to morality in buddhism it deals with your actions in reflection of someone else's or societies response. If no one cares about the action you have done is it still bad if it caused no harm to anyone else? So is there ever a chance that a lie would never cause another to suffer?

Like the deer in the woods story. If you are sitting in the woods meditating and you happen to hear and see a deer pass by you. Shortly after a hunter arrives and requests to know if you have seen the deer and in which direction did it go.

Before I continue with the story, you could easily replace the deer with another person that another person is hunting. Perhaps a jew in post ww2 germany while the nazi's are rounding them up.

So you have a mild conflict here. You could chose to say nothing at all and just continue with your meditation but that doesn't necessarily help. The hunter could still just find the deer without your help. However you could decide to mislead the hunter and send him in the wrong direction that might provide the deer with more time to escape. Then you could always leave your location so when the hunter discovers you gave him false information he can't return to take it out on you.

So in a case similar to this, what do you do? Do you tell the absolute truth? Do you try to persuade the hunter not to persue the deer? Do you lie and mislead the hunter?
0 Replies
 
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 May, 2009 07:53 am
@Yogi DMT,
If you'll all excuse the adolescent interruption, I'd like to add (however insignificantly) to this discussion by further postulating: Is dandruff immoral?

Thanks - sorry for the diversion
William
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 May, 2009 11:53 am
@Khethil,
Khethil;65544 wrote:
If you'll all excuse the adolescent interruption, I'd like to add (however insignificantly) to this discussion by further postulating: Is dandruff immoral?

Thanks - sorry for the diversion


Thanks, Khethil. It is truly hard to equate a morality or an immorality to that which "shouldn't" exist such as my list:

Family dysfunction, greed, abortions, war, theft, waste, poverty, homelessness, disease, cancer, strife, corruption, discrimination, racism, hate, animosity, condescension, slavery, religion, suicide, homosexuality, pornography, prostitution, STD's, AIDS, squaller, murder, rape, starvation, deceit, envy, alcoholism, mental illness, depression, anxiety, fear, worry, stress, guilt, addiction and a trillion dollar drug empire that allows us to cope with the reality we have created and dandruff.

William
0 Replies
 
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 May, 2009 02:00 pm
@Yogi DMT,
Thanks, William, I like your list

Yea I probably shouldn't have posted such a blatantly sarcastic reply; but I was feeling the extremeness of questioning-the-question: How can we attribute morality to a thing, a tool whose good or ill-use is in the hand of the wielder?

That... probably wouldn't have been better put
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 May, 2009 02:32 pm
@Yogi DMT,
William wrote:
Family dysfunction, greed, abortions, war, theft, waste, poverty, homelessness, disease, cancer, strife, corruption, discrimination, racism, hate, animosity, condescension, slavery, religion, suicide, homosexuality, pornography, prostitution, STD's, AIDS, squaller, murder, rape, starvation, deceit, envy, alcoholism, mental illness, depression, anxiety, fear, worry, stress, guilt, addiction and a trillion dollar drug empire that allows us to cope with the reality we have created and dandruff.


Why do you think these things shouldn't exist? That seems really arrogant to me, to say anything shouldn't exist. You say you wish homosexuals didn't exist. That's pretty profound, actually. A whole group of people who have no will over their sexual orientation... you just wish their beings didn't exist. Wow. Really interesting stuff. But what's most interesting is that you include "discrimination" on the list of things you wish didn't exist, yet there's implied discrimination within the majority of your items.

Maybe you should include "contradiction" in your list of things you wish didn't exist. That'd be pretty ironic, huh? But if contradiction didn't exist, surely your list couldn't exist either. Ah, I guess we'll just have to live with that paradox.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 May, 2009 06:51 pm
@Yogi DMT,
Much easier to obfusticate than explicate, isn't it?Smile
0 Replies
 
William
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 May, 2009 07:58 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;65593 wrote:
You say you wish homosexuals didn't exist. That's pretty profound, actually. A whole group of people who have no will over their sexual orientation... you just wish their beings didn't exist. Wow. Really interesting stuff. But what's most interesting is that you include "discrimination" on the list of things you wish didn't exist, yet there's implied discrimination within the majority of your items.

Maybe you should include "contradiction" in your list of things you wish didn't exist. That'd be pretty ironic, huh? But if contradiction didn't exist, surely your list couldn't exist either. Ah, I guess we'll just have to live with that paradox.


I ask a gay man on this forum a question. I ask him if science were to formulate a medicine that would alter his behavior from gay to straight, would he take the medicine? He replied something to the effect "...are you kidding? Absolutely! Even though he had been in a homosexual relationship for many years. I would like to think most would say the same thing. I, by no means, mean no harm whatsover. But it could be the fact that over 25,000,000 people have died world wide of AIDS, and at present 30,000,000 more are trying to survive with HIV and AIDS; so do I wish homosexuality didn't exist. Absolutely.

William
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 May, 2009 07:59 pm
@Yogi DMT,
He doesn't just want to obfusticate the issues, he wants to exterminate!

---------- Post added at 10:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 PM ----------

William wrote:
I ask a gay man on this forum a question. I ask him if science were to formulate a medicine that would alter his behavior from gay to straight, would he take the medicine? He replied something to the effect "...are you kidding? Abdolutely! Even though he had been in a homosexual relationship for many years. I would like to think most would say the same thing. I, by no means, mean no harm whatsover. But it could be the fact that over 25,000,000 people have died world wide of AIDS; so do I wish homosexuality didn't exist. Absolutely.


His response couldn't have anything to do with how you and a thousand other people treat his sexual orientation daily, could it?

I think more people have died from acts of discrimination than from AIDS.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 May, 2009 08:02 pm
@Yogi DMT,
If you want to get rid of the trillion dollar drug empire, you legalize all drugs.

You don't see gangs selling cigarettes or alcohol on street corners. The escalating gang violence is due to the changes in the economy. With fewer people buying drugs because they can't afford them, they fight over drug selling territory. If drugs were legalized it would take lots of power away from gangs. Gangs wouldn't disappear completely but their influence would drop off dramatically.

If you think I'm full of crap, just look at prohibition. The mob made lost of money selling illegal alcohol and crime quickly followed. It wasn't until they lifted the ban on selling alcohol that the power within the mob started to diminish.

Legalize, all drugs, legalize prostitution and legalize gambling and lots of crime will go away.
0 Replies
 
William
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 May, 2009 08:46 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;65631 wrote:

---------- Post added at 10:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 PM -------
His response couldn't have anything to do with how you and a thousand other people treat his sexual orientation daily, could it?

I think more people have died from acts of discrimination than from AIDS.


Absolutely. But if you will note, discrimination is also on the list.
William
0 Replies
 
viandante
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 01:54 pm
@Yogi DMT,
This like to ask: is chocolate cake moral?

My answer is: 42.

Man, you should explain what you feel. Emotions are great, I think there is no best thing than sex, but can we organize ourselves and our society just looking at what we feel ("This morning I feel boring, I am not going to work" or "Today I am launching an atomic bomb because I am angry for the wether man forecasts")?

You should listen Rita Levi Montalcini, she is 100 years old and she is a nobel, and her message is that the future of humanity is in the ability to use the logic part of our brain.
Nameless 23232
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 03:13 pm
@viandante,


Science is amoral. Although it does have an aspect of morality to it, for example it doesn't generally use humans as subjects for experiments unless they consent to it or they are dead. Then again there's the topic of animal testing but I tend to believe this is different as the moral code doesn't strictly concern animals, it's a morally contentious issue.

---------- Post added at 10:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 PM ----------

William;65630 wrote:
I ask a gay man on this forum a question. I ask him if science were to formulate a medicine that would alter his behavior from gay to straight, would he take the medicine? He replied something to the effect "...are you kidding? Absolutely! Even though he had been in a homosexual relationship for many years. I would like to think most would say the same thing. I, by no means, mean no harm whatsover. But it could be the fact that over 25,000,000 people have died world wide of AIDS, and at present 30,000,000 more are trying to survive with HIV and AIDS; so do I wish homosexuality didn't exist. Absolutely.

William



What's the connection exactly? How is one more likely to get aids from homosexual sex than straight sex?
0 Replies
 
Poseidon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 03:58 pm
@Yogi DMT,
When you attempt to experiment with morality in a scientific manner, by, for example putting a person in a moral dillema in order to test their response, you have already subverted your morals by doing so.

So any study on morality, which claims to be truly scientific (using a repeatable experiment) has an immoral foundation. Thus, the so-called scientist's results could not be trusted, as he is immoral and likely to cheat.

This is why we study history in a hermeneutical phenomenological paradigm.

Unfortunately, this makes the study of ethics very difficult and open to misrepresentation and personal bias. This is why religion uses the notion of faith when expressing itself on a moral level. We can only study history with large dollop of faith in the historians. We can only study psychology with a similar degree of unclinical distance, or by immersing oneself into the patients' lives where our own subjective effect is actually part of the process.

Sadly this is why law itself is open to falsehood and corruption and error.

I suppose I am crossing the question a bit, and perhaps I am answering a question "Is morality scientific?"
But on closer examination, one can see that the two questions actually have the same issue at hand, because when one uses science in studying people's lives, the issue of morality, becomes a logical barrier to any precision involved.

Even behaviourism, which merely tries to observe behaviour, often relies on allowing a creature to suffer, rather than helping it (think Pavlov). I certainly would not trust a report by Pavlov as being necesarily honest.

Of course we may try to study minor issues which have little or no morality to them, and then try and infer from these results, what may happen in a serious situation. But inference, albeit useful, is not science, and the extremity between the serious and the non-serious situation is not something that can be ignored.

And its the serious situations whch warrant our attention.

This is where intersubjective experience (philosophy) makes its grand entrance, and this is also where the power of the journalistic novel is so important. And, where the power of shared experience becomes multiplied by the massive power of such wonders as the internet, and the humble word.
0 Replies
 
 

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