1
   

Meaning versus Definition

 
 
fast
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 10:29 am
@longknowledge,
I'm thinking that a definition of a word is a phrase that conveys the meaning of a word, but this isn't to say that a definition of a word is the meaning of a word. We should not confuse what is being conveyed (the meaning) with what is conveying it (the definition).
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 10:39 am
@fast,
fast;115295 wrote:
I'm thinking that a definition of a word is a phrase that conveys the meaning of a word, but this isn't to say that a definition of a word is the meaning of a word. We should not confuse what is being conveyed (the meaning) with what is conveying it (the definition).


And also keeping in mind that you can convey the meaning of a word, without stating the defintion at all.

Also, how effective is a definition in conveying the meaning of a word? Suppose someone reads a definition of a word, but doesn't even know what the words in the definition mean? That person may be better off seeing how the word is used correctly in a sentence, for instance, in order to better understand the meaning of the word.

Someone may know the meaning of a word but not the definition, and someone may know the definition of a word but not the meaning. Isn't this right?
fast
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 10:47 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;115297 wrote:
And also keeping in mind that you can convey the meaning of a word, without stating the defintion at all.

Also, how effective is a definition in conveying the meaning of a word? Suppose someone reads a definition of a word, but doesn't even know what the words in the definition mean? That person may be better off seeing how the word is used correctly in a sentence, for instance, in order to better understand the meaning of the word.

Someone may know the meaning of a word but not the definition, and someone may know the definition of a word but not the meaning. Isn't this right?
I agree with you completely. I just wanted to make sure we share the belief that they are not the same.
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 10:58 am
@fast,
fast;115299 wrote:
I agree with you completely. I just wanted to make sure we share the belief that they are not the same.


Sometimes, though, I don't know if I know the meaning of word, but I still use the word in my writing. I know the definition of the word only, and for some reason I don't feel as though I have an understanding of the meaning. This happens often when I speak on scientific topics.

I wish to know the correlation between me knowing the definition of a word, and me knowing the meaning of said word. Suppose I do understand the definition of a word - have I been bestowed meaning of the word, on some level? Or, is meaning more of an acquired thing that I receive through communication with another? At what point should I feel comfortable in stating that I know what a word means, as opposed to just knowing what the definition is?
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 11:04 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;115297 wrote:


Someone may know the meaning of a word but not the definition, and someone may know the definition of a word but not the meaning. Isn't this right?


It is true that someone can use a term perfectly competently, applying it to what it should be applied to, and refusing to apply it to what it should not be applied to, and so be said to know what the word means, but not be able to formulate a good definition of the word. Of course someone may learn by rote the definition of a term, and yet not be able to use the term correctly. But it is harder to believe that someone may actually be able to formulate a good definition, and yet not be able to use the word correctly. How, then could we explain his correct formulation of the definition? But I agree that in the primary sense of knowing the meaning of a word, it is being able to use the term correctly that counts, and not knowing (whatever that means) the definition of the word.
0 Replies
 
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 11:17 am
@fast,
fast;101755 wrote:

The phrase, "definition of a word" is perplexing in its own right, for if we inspect a definition, we find that it is composed of both the definiendum (a word or expression that is being defined) and the definiens (the word or words serving to define another word or expression, as in a dictionary entry).

Well, this post is getting long, so I'll send it as is to see what'll come from it. Happy philosophizing!


I think semiotics is more explicitly at the meaning level than the definition level. For example in the dyadic conception of the sign, the word is a signifier and the meaning is a signified. It is not quite right to say that the definition is the signified.

How does defiendum/definiens relate to the semiotic terms signifier/signified? It is not the same. I find that interesting. When we look at a definition is the defiendum the signified and the definiens the signifier? It's a recursion - signifier becomes signified.

I know I'm adding terms to the mix but do you have any thoughts on this fast?
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Dec, 2009 09:40 am
@fast,
kennethamy wrote:
It is true that someone can use a term perfectly competently, applying it to what it should be applied to, and refusing to apply it to what it should not be applied to, and so be said to know what the word means, but not be able to formulate a good definition of the word. Of course someone may learn by rote the definition of a term, and yet not be able to use the term correctly. But it is harder to believe that someone may actually be able to formulate a good definition, and yet not be able to use the word correctly. How, then could we explain his correct formulation of the definition? But I agree that in the primary sense of knowing the meaning of a word, it is being able to use the term correctly that counts, and not knowing (whatever that means) the definition of the word.


Is it not possible that I memorize the words which compose a definition, without knowing what the words which compose the definition mean? I could, right now, open a French dictionary, and memorize the definition of a French word. I know absolutely no French and so consequently I would not understand the definition. But, couldn't I say I knew the definition, if I memorized the definition?

But, I suppose you were referring to someone formulating a definition on their own. And to that I would agree -- it would be hard to see how the person didn't understand the meaning of a word, in this case.

-

And we haven't touched on this yet, but: How do definitions correlate with senses? You spoke of senses, you spoke of meanings, and you spoke of definitions. If I know the definition of a word, this obviously doesn't mean I know all meanings of the word, does it? And, I suppose, I wouldn't know all the senses of the word, either.

What exactly is the distinction between meaning and sense? Or, sense and definition?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Dec, 2009 09:56 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;115570 wrote:
Is it not possible that I memorize the words which compose a definition, without knowing what the words which compose the definition mean? I could, right now, open a French dictionary, and memorize the definition of a French word. I know absolutely no French and so consequently I would not understand the definition. But, couldn't I say I knew the definition, if I memorized the definition?

But, I suppose you were referring to someone formulating a definition on their own. And to that I would agree -- it would be hard to see how the person didn't understand the meaning of a word, in this case.

-

And we haven't touched on this yet, but: How do definitions correlate with senses? You spoke of senses, you spoke of meanings, and you spoke of definitions. If I know the definition of a word, this obviously doesn't mean I know all meanings of the word, does it? And, I suppose, I wouldn't know all the senses of the word, either.

What exactly is the distinction between meaning and sense? Or, sense and definition?


Senses are a subset of meanings. One meaning of a word may have several senses. How the editor(s) of a dictionary make that distinction is a technical matter in lexicography.
fast
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Dec, 2009 10:03 am
@Deckard,
[QUOTE=Deckard;115306]I think semiotics is more explicitly at the meaning level than the definition level. For example in the dyadic conception of the sign, the word is a signifier and the meaning is a signified. It is not quite right to say that the definition is the signified.

How does defiendum/definiens relate to the semiotic terms signifier/signified? It is not the same. I find that interesting. When we look at a definition is the defiendum the signified and the definiens the signifier? It's a recursion - signifier becomes signified.

I know I'm adding terms to the mix but do you have any thoughts on this fast?[/quote]

I'm not really sure how "signifer" and "signified" ought to be used, but when I think of "signifer," I think of "term," and when I think of "signified," I think of "referent."

A lot of people confuse referent with meaning. All words have meaning, but not all words have a referent. For example, both the words, "cat" and "unicorn" have meaning, but only one has a referent.

[quote]For example in the dyadic conception of the sign, the word is a signifier and the meaning is a signified. It is not quite right to say that the definition is the signified.[/QUOTE]Well, even if what is signified is the meaning of a word (I have no idea), then we still shouldn't confuse the meaning of a word with the definition of a word.[/SIZE]

[quote]How does defiendum/definiens relate to the semiotic terms signifier/signified? It is not the same. I find that interesting. When we look at a definition is the defiendum the signified and the definiens the signifier? It's a recursion - signifier becomes signified. [/quote]

I think we really need to distinguish better between the meaning of a word and the definien. The definien is like an official reference map to guide us to the meaning. There are other ways to figure out the meaning of a word, and reading and understanding (say) a written definition of a word (or in particular, the definen) is one way to do so, for from that, we may be able to glean from it what the word means. When we read a definition, what we have read is a definition, not the meaning. We glean the meaning from the definition (hopefully).

So, if definien is like a map to a location, then signified is like the location.

Are you confident that "signified" has to do with meaning and not referent?
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Dec, 2009 02:44 pm
@fast,
fast;115575 wrote:


I'm not really sure how "signifer" and "signified" ought to be used, but when I think of "signifer," I think of "term," and when I think of "signified," I think of "referent."

A lot of people confuse referent with meaning. All words have meaning, but not all words have a referent. For example, both the words, "cat" and "unicorn" have meaning, but only one has a referent.

Well, even if what is signified is the meaning of a word (I have no idea), then we still shouldn't confuse the meaning of a word with the definition of a word.



I think we really need to distinguish better between the meaning of a word and the definien. The definien is like an official reference map to guide us to the meaning. There are other ways to figure out the meaning of a word, and reading and understanding (say) a written definition of a word (or in particular, the definen) is one way to do so, for from that, we may be able to glean from it what the word means. When we read a definition, what we have read is a definition, not the meaning. We glean the meaning from the definition (hopefully).

So, if definien is like a map to a location, then signified is like the location.

Are you confident that "signified" has to do with meaning and not referent?


Well darn, my use of 'signified' was very sloppy and incorrect. I'm passing the buck to wikipedia. I still think Saussure can help us. For Saussure the meaning of the word arise out of its relationship to every other word. The word 'cat' is not the word 'bat' or 'monkey' or 'red' or 'running' etc. it is the word 'cat'. Never mind what it refers to, it's meaning arises out of the relationship with the other words. For Saussure meaning is distributed among the signs and each sign gets its meaning through its relationship with every other sign. (a word is a sign)

It may take me a few more tries to articulate this correctly. I'm still not sure about definition but I don't think it can be confused with meaning as I have described meaning.

Even if it means introducing some technical terms, I can't imagine that Saussure is irrelevant to your thread. Also, I still think there is something interesting about the fact that the definition and Saussure's sign both have a dyadic structure...I'm not sure how important that is...it may be a red herring.
0 Replies
 
longknowledge
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Dec, 2009 07:41 pm
@fast,
Which type of definition do you mean?

Types of Definition

Analytic definition
Analytical definition
"Circular" definition
Content definition
Contextual definition
Coordinative definition
Definition by context
Definition by example
Definition by genus and difference
Definition by genus and species
Definition by recursion
Definition in use
Definition per genus et differentiam
Descriptive definition
Dictionary definition
"Etymological" definition
Explicative definition
Explicit definition
Extended definition
Extensional definition
Formal definition
Functional definition
"Genetic" definition
Genetic definition
"Genus-difference" definition
Implicit definition
Inductive definition
Intensional definition
Legal definition
Lexical definition
Lexicographic definition
Nominal definition
Objective definition
Official definition
Operational definition
Ostensive definition
Persuasive definition
Practical definition
Precising definition
Prescriptive definition
'Raal" definition
Real definition
"Real" definition
Recursive definition
Relational definition
Reportative definition
Reportive definition
Semantic definition
Stipulative definition
Structural definition
Synonymous definition
"Teleological" definition
Terminological definition
Theoretical definition
Verb definition
Word sense definition

See also my new thread: Ortega y Gasset on Definition
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Dec, 2009 07:51 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;115573 wrote:
Senses are a subset of meanings. One meaning of a word may have several senses. How the editor(s) of a dictionary make that distinction is a technical matter in lexicography.


Fair enough. Can you provide an example, though? I fear, in practical application, I may get a sense confused with a meaning (or the other way around).
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Dec, 2009 08:06 pm
@longknowledge,
longknowledge;115748 wrote:
Which type of definition do you mean?

Types of Definition

Analytic definition
Analytical definition
"Circular" definition
Content definition
Contextual definition
Coordinative definition
Definition by context
Definition by example
Definition by genus and difference
Definition by genus and species
Definition by recursion
Definition in use
Definition per genus et differentiam
Descriptive definition
Dictionary definition
"Etymological" definition
Explicative definition
Explicit definition
Extended definition
Extensional definition
Formal definition
Functional definition
"Genetic" definition
Genetic definition
"Genus-difference" definition
Implicit definition
Inductive definition
Intensional definition
Legal definition
Lexical definition
Lexicographic definition
Nominal definition
Objective definition
Official definition
Operational definition
Ostensive definition
Persuasive definition
Practical definition
Precising definition
Prescriptive definition
'Raal" definition
Real definition
"Real" definition
Recursive definition
Relational definition
Reportative definition
Reportive definition
Semantic definition
Stipulative definition
Structural definition
Synonymous definition
"Teleological" definition
Terminological definition
Theoretical definition
Verb definition
Word sense definition

See also my new thread: Ortega y Gasset on Definition



Let's start with circular definition.

For example here's one: The definition of a word is the meaning of the word.
0 Replies
 
fast
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Dec, 2009 08:12 pm
@longknowledge,
[QUOTE=longknowledge;115748]Which type of definition do you mean?[/quote][QUOTE=longknowledge;115748]

Types of Definition

Analytic definition
Analytical definition
"Circular" definition
Content definition
Contextual definition
Coordinative definition
Definition by context
Definition by example
Definition by genus and difference
Definition by genus and species
Definition by recursion
Definition in use
Definition per genus et differentiam
Descriptive definition
Dictionary definition
"Etymological" definition
Explicative definition
Explicit definition
Extended definition
Extensional definition
Formal definition
Functional definition
"Genetic" definition
Genetic definition
"Genus-difference" definition
Implicit definition
Inductive definition
Intensional definition
Legal definition
Lexical definition
Lexicographic definition
Nominal definition
Objective definition
Official definition
Operational definition
Ostensive definition
Persuasive definition
Practical definition
Precising definition
Prescriptive definition
'Raal" definition
Real definition
"Real" definition
Recursive definition
Relational definition
Reportative definition
Reportive definition
Semantic definition
Stipulative definition
Structural definition
Synonymous definition
"Teleological" definition
Terminological definition
Theoretical definition
Verb definition
Word sense definition

See also my new thread: Ortega y Gasset on Definition[/QUOTE]
Lexical
........

---------- Post added 12-30-2009 at 09:40 PM ----------

[QUOTE=Deckard;115662]For Saussure the meaning of the word arise out of its relationship to every other word.[/QUOTE]I don't get it.

The meaning of a word is how it's collectively used by fluent speakers. Note, I said, "collectively," as opposed to "individually." If you and I decide to stipulate that the word, "brown," means something other than how it's collectively used, then the word, "brown" continues to mean just what it did before we created our own special (and differing) definition.

I'm not sure what kind of relationship Saussure had in mind, so like I said, I don't get it.

[QUOTE]The word 'cat' is not the word 'bat' or 'monkey' or 'red' or 'running' etc. it is the word 'cat'. Never mind what it refers to, it's meaning arises out of the relationship with the other words.[/QUOTE]
I use double quotes when referring to words, and I use single quotes when using a word in a special or alternative manner. Just so ya know.

What relationship do you think the word "although" has with the word "planet?"

[QUOTE]For Saussure meaning is distributed among the signs and each sign gets its meaning through its relationship with every other sign. (a word is a sign)[/QUOTE]I agree that a word is an example of a sign.

[QUOTE]It may take me a few more tries to articulate this correctly. I'm still not sure about definition but I don't think it can be confused with meaning as I have described meaning.[/QUOTE]Earlier in the thread, Kennethamy said, "A dictionary definition is the lexical meaning of a term." This isn't to say there isn't a difference between the two, but understanding the difference is like trying to understand the difference between a proposition and a statement. Yes, we can often use them interchangeably, but somewhere, somehow, there is a difference (obscure as it may be) to be made between them.

[quote]Even if it means introducing some technical terms, I can't imagine that Saussure is irrelevant to your thread.[/QUOTE]I don't' think it's irrelevant.
0 Replies
 
longknowledge
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Dec, 2009 09:08 pm
@fast,
What type of meaning does your definition involve?

Types of Meaning

Associative meaning
Christian meaning
Class meaning
Cognitive meaning
Constructed meaning
Denotative meaning
Descriptive meaning
Emotive meaning
Empirical meaning
Figurative meaning
Focal meaning
Grammatical meaning
Lexical meaning
Linguistic meaning
Literal meaning
Monty Python's Meaning (of Life)
Multiple meaning
Musical meaning
Non-figurative meaning
Non-linguistic meaning
Non-literal meaning
Objective meaning
Original meaning
Pagan meaning
Plain meaning
Prescriptive meaning
Reverse-tarot meaning
Satanic meaning
Secondary meaning
Secular meaning
Self-referential meaning
Speaker's meaning
Strict meaning
Utterer's meaning
 
Sorry for being so "mean-y," but I didn't make these up!
fast
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Dec, 2009 09:12 pm
@fast,
lexical

..........
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Dec, 2009 09:13 pm
@longknowledge,
longknowledge;115771 wrote:
What type of meaning does your definition involve?

Types of Meaning

Associative meaning
Christian meaning
Class meaning
Cognitive meaning
Constructed meaning
Denotative meaning
Descriptive meaning
Emotive meaning
Empirical meaning
Figurative meaning
Focal meaning
Grammatical meaning
Lexical meaning
Linguistic meaning
Literal meaning
Monty Python's Meaning (of Life)
Multiple meaning
Musical meaning
Non-figurative meaning
Non-linguistic meaning
Non-literal meaning
Objective meaning
Original meaning
Pagan meaning
Plain meaning
Prescriptive meaning
Reverse-tarot meaning
Satanic meaning
Secondary meaning
Secular meaning
Self-referential meaning
Speaker's meaning
Strict meaning
Utterer's meaning
 
Sorry for being so "mean-y," but I didn't make these up!


Keep in mind that when you paste these lists, you aren't proving that the word in question is used differently. I'd wager that most of the applications of the word "meaning" you list are still using the same sense, and meaning, of the word "meaning". Just because a word can be applied to a variety of different things, does not mean that the meaning of the word changes.
0 Replies
 
longknowledge
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Dec, 2009 11:19 pm
@fast,
fast;115772 wrote:
lexical..........


What do you "mean" by "lexical definition"?

lexical definition - The meaning of a word in actual usage by speakers of a certain language. (Wiktionary)

The lexical definition of a term, also known as the dictionary definition, is the meaning of the term in common usage. As its other name implies, this is the sort of definition one is likely to find in the dictionary. A lexical definition is usually the type expected from a request for definition, and it is generally expected that such a definition will be stated as simply as possible in order to convey information to the widest audience. (Wikipedia)

A lexical definition (sometimes also called a reportive definition) is any definition which explains how a word is actually used. (About.com)

Lexical definition specifies the meaning of an expression by stating it in terms of other expressions whose meaning is assumed to be known (e.g., a ewe is a female sheep). (Encyclopedia Britannica Online)

Lexical definition - the meaning of a word in actual usage by speakers of a certain language (AllWords.com)

Lexical definition - the meaning of a word in common usage by speakers of the language; dictionary definition (Dictionary.com)

lexical definition - A faithful report of the way in which a term is used within a particular language-community. (A Dictionary of Philosophical Terms and Names)

See also:

"Definition and Meaning," by Garth Kemerling:
 
A lexical definition simply reports the way in which a term is already used within a language community. The goal here is to inform someone else of the accepted meaning of the term, so the definition is more or less correct depending upon the accuracy with which it captures that usage.

"Lexical Definition," In: Definition, by Richard Robinston. (Oxford University Press, 1954), Chapter III, pp. 34-58:

Lexical definition is that sort of word-thing definition in which we are explaining the actual way in which some actual word has been used by some actual persons.

And I found:

"Lexical definition of definition":

Definition has a number of meanings, including:

- A statement of the meaning of a word, phrase, concept, or sometimes a thing, such as a natural kind.

- The quality of a graphic or auditory reproduction.

- In Roman Catholicism, a "dogmatic definition" by a pope or an ecumenical council. Catholics say, for example, that the pope "defined that the Virgin Mary was conceived innocent of original sin".

- In computer science, a definition consists of a declaration and, possibly, an initializer. Usually, the definition and declaration are the same thing.

Also, there's probably:

A lexical definition of "meaning"

A lexical meaning of "definition"

A lexical meaning of "meaning"

And finally, from the Definition Handout of the Writing Lab of the University of West Florida:

"A definition says what something is and what it is not."

---------- Post added 12-31-2009 at 01:00 AM ----------

Deckard;115755 wrote:
Let's start with circular definition. For example here's one: The definition of a word is the meaning of the word.


What do you mean by circular definition?

A circular definition is one that assumes a prior understanding of the term being defined.

A circular definition is a description of the meaning of a lexeme that is constructed using one or more synonymous lexemes that are all defined in terms of each other.

A circular definition defines an expression in terms of itself.


Or how about a circular definition of "circular definition":

Circular definition - a definition in which the definiendum (the expression being defined) or a variant of it appears in the definiens (the expression that defines it)

"A rose is a rose is a rose." (Gertruce Stein)

I think I'll stop now. I'm getting dizzy!

:flowers:
fast
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Dec, 2009 02:09 am
@longknowledge,
[QUOTE=longknowledge;115797]What do you "mean" by "lexical definition"?

See also:

"Definition and Meaning," by Garth Kemerling:
 
A lexical definition simply reports the way in which a term is already used within a language community. The goal here is to inform someone else of the accepted meaning of the term, so the definition is more or less correct depending upon the accuracy with which it captures that usage.
[/quote]
This one is far superior to the others, and one reason is that it's the only one that is successful in distinguishing meaning from definition. The difference between the definition of a word and the meaning of a word may be too subtle for some, but I think the meaning of a word can exist without a corresponding definition. Definitions are often created after a word has been used. I can think of exceptions, but the point remains: they are different, so although many of the definitions you listed point us in the right direction, they are not precise.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Dec, 2009 02:49 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;115752 wrote:
Fair enough. Can you provide an example, though? I fear, in practical application, I may get a sense confused with a meaning (or the other way around).


Under one meaning of "bank" we get:

Main Entry: 1bank
1 : a mound, pile, or ridge raised above the surrounding level: as a : a piled-up mass of cloud or fog b : an undersea elevation rising especially from the continental shelf
2 : the rising ground bordering a lake, river, or sea or forming the edge of a cut or hollow
3 a : a steep slope (as of a hill) b : the lateral inward tilt of a surface along a curve or of a vehicle (as an airplane) when turning
4 : a protective or cushioning rim or piece

And, of course, there is another meaning of "bank" as in a financial institution. And that would have several senses under it.

And then, there is the verb, "to bank" as in what an airplane does when it flies. But that may be marked, not as a different meaning, but as a different word which is spelled and pronounced the same way. A homonym.
 

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