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DNA and the 'Code of Life'

 
 
QuinticNon
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 10:18 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;120427 wrote:
This is where the idea comes in that 'information' is as basic to the universe as energy and matter. This is where it gets a bit spooky. But I like it...


This is where we must discover... if Info is already there, just floating around along side energy/matter (as if energy/matter is an automatic default manifestation if and only if there is Information), or, if Information is not invisibly present in the background, but requires a sentient mind to arrange energy/matter as a medium to express a thought, thereby creating Information.

I believe there is a common ground. One that allow humans to arrange energy/matter to describe thought/info. But instead of creating Info in this way, we are actually inviting it into our physical realm. As if it was already there, but needs creature to manipulate physicality in a way that allows it to enter our physical realm. That mechanism is language.

But the bigger question still remains. Is Information a sentient agent all to itself, or is it the thought of still yet a greater sentient entity? Or... are we actually nothing more than our thoughts... seeing they are not from an intelligent agent, but they actually are the intelligent agent and energy/matter is actually a deception.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:16 pm
@QuinticNon,
QuinticNon;120472 wrote:
This is where we must discover... if Info is already there, just floating around along side energy/matter (as if energy/matter is an automatic default manifestation if and only if there is Information), or, if Information is not invisibly present in the background, but requires a sentient mind to arrange energy/matter as a medium to express a thought, thereby creating Information.

I believe there is a common ground. One that allow humans to arrange energy/matter to describe thought/info. But instead of creating Info in this way, we are actually inviting it into our physical realm. As if it was already there, but needs creature to manipulate physicality in a way that allows it to enter our physical realm. That mechanism is language.

But the bigger question still remains. Is Information a sentient agent all to itself, or is it the thought of still yet a greater sentient entity? Or... are we actually nothing more than our thoughts... seeing they are not from an intelligent agent, but they actually are the intelligent agent and energy/matter is actually a deception.
I still say if you could remove everything material from existance the formula for life would still exist. You cant make a certainty impossible. Does it matter if there is a human, an engineer, thought, to conceive this certainty?
QuinticNon
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:26 pm
@xris,
xris;120487 wrote:
I still say if you could remove everything material from existance the formula for life would still exist. You cant make a certainty impossible. Does it matter if there is a human, an engineer, thought, to conceive this certainty?


Oh dear friend... now we have another word to consider... "certainty"?

What could provide certainty to an agent that is thought to be immaterial?

Are fingerprints enough? Thus far, all we have is fingerprints. We have not peeped the perp.:cool:
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:35 pm
@QuinticNon,
QuinticNon;120492 wrote:
Oh dear friend... now we have another word to consider... "certainty"?

What could provide certainty to an agent that is thought to be immaterial?

Are fingerprints enough? Thus far, all we have is fingerprints. We have not peeped the perp.:cool:
From my perspective an agent is a certainty, what that agent looks like, I have no idea.What I have tried to say if we have an engineer or not, the mere idea that we have a certainty, it requires nothing else. Do you need a creative force to believe that 1+1=2 ? A more complex but intrinsically simple formula is what it is, no one can deny it has always existed.
QuinticNon
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 01:05 pm
@xris,
xris;120496 wrote:
A more complex but intrinsically simple formula is what it is, no one can deny it has always existed.


Potentially, the essence of 1+1=2 has always existed. But the physical expression of the essence has only existed as long as man has defined it as 1+1=2.

The question is, did the "essence" exist before man, or because of man? Is "mind" a portal to the unseen Information lurking behind the physical universe? Or does "mind" express itself, by observing and defining the physical universe. Is "mind" linking to another "mind" or "phenomenon", or is "mind" creating by defining?

The physical expression, 1+1=2, is a man-made picture. It describes something else. It describes a thought. We've drawn a picture of a thought. That's all code is. Code is a picture of a thought. It does this by mapping probability space A to probability space B. That's the fundamental principle of any language.

Man invented a description to point at something he noticed in the corridors of his very own mind. He noticed the essence of 1+1=2. How may we say this essence was instead, given to him?

Are my comments from me? Or are my comments from the cosmos and I'm just a conduit used to make them known? I don't believe the universe has any inherent instructional code waiting to be discovered. But I am beginning to lean towards an original "Essence of Being" that is both purely information and purely sentient unto itself. It must have been able to "Author itself" into our physical realm somehow by manipulating energy/matter. Somehow it expressed itself physically. That was all that was needed to eventually express all physical life forms into reality. My genetic code gets me started. It formed me into existence thanks be to the original Essence of Being. But from here on out, I author my own essence with every spoken word, written word, and secret codified thought within the boundaries of my own mind. I am also creating myself.

When the physicality ends, I have no evidence that my self authored formula ends. I become a purely informational being who is the end result of everything I authored for myself in the physical realm.

Perhaps, in the immaterial realm, I will not be able to re-author myself further. If I am the essence of greed, then I'm stuck with it. If I am the essence of charity, then I'm stuck with it. Perhaps an opportunity is presented to express myself physically again... and thus have the physical mechanism necessary to begin authoring my essence again. Perhaps this physical realm is a simple opportunity to create ourselves by modifying our own physical code of expression.

Perhaps I'm wrong.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 01:18 pm
@QuinticNon,
You are expressing your existance. If you did not exist, the idea would still exist. When we die the knowledge we have accumulated will be lost to us but knowledge is the acknowledgement that we have conceived this knowledge. We cant create this knowledge, only the fact that we have been fortunate to have acquired it. If it is thought, its not ours.
QuinticNon
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 01:51 pm
@xris,
xris;120515 wrote:
If it is thought, its not ours.


That may or may not be. Wouldn't be so bad either way. I just can't build a satisfying argument for it. I can only satisfy my own sentience, confirming it with every post on this thread. These thoughts are from my mind, no one or nothing else. If they come from something else... then who am I? Not what, but who?

You may have the last word friend. Thanks to all!
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 02:12 pm
@QuinticNon,
QuinticNon;120532 wrote:
That may or may not be. Wouldn't be so bad either way. I just can't build a satisfying argument for it. I can only satisfy my own sentience, confirming it with every post on this thread. These thoughts are from my mind, no one or nothing else. If they come from something else... then who am I? Not what, but who?

You may have the last word friend. Thanks to all!
The universe is no more than what we conceive, its yours to wonder at and be amazed. The joy is in the mystery and the possibilities that we can imaging. Enjoy it, for its own sake.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jan, 2010 05:01 pm
@QuinticNon,
QuinticNon;120505 wrote:
Potentially, the essence of 1+1=2 has always existed. But the physical expression of the essence has only existed as long as man has defined it as 1+1=2.

The question is, did the "essence" exist before man, or because of man? Is "mind" a portal to the unseen Information lurking behind the physical universe? Or does "mind" express itself, by observing and defining the physical universe. Is "mind" linking to another "mind" or "phenomenon", or is "mind" creating by defining?

The physical expression, 1+1=2, is a man-made picture. It describes something else. It describes a thought. We've drawn a picture of a thought. That's all code is. Code is a picture of a thought. It does this by mapping probability space A to probability space B. That's the fundamental principle of any language.

Man invented a description to point at something he noticed in the corridors of his very own mind. He noticed the essence of 1+1=2. How may we say this essence was instead, given to him?



In fact, I think this question is very close to the origins of Western philosophy, particularly in reference to Pythagorean tradition. Why? Because number is an example of what the tradition understood as an 'intelligible object'. Note that the meaning of the term 'intelligible' was subtly different in antiquity to the meaning it now has. Have a quick look at this pagein regards to Augustine's notion of intelligible objects and ask yourself, as you are reading it, whether eveything in it applies to the concept of number. (You will also notice reference to 'the rules of wisdom'.)

Of course, Augustine is 'blacklisted' by many thinkers nowadays due to the association of his ideas with Catholic dogma. However this passage provides a vital insight into the possible relationship between this idea of 'information' and a much older precedent in Western philosophy.

In fact, I don't think it is too far-fetched to argue that the entire 'DNA as code' argument is a modern re-statement or re-discovery of one of the major themes in Western philosophy, namely the cosmological argument.

I can't help but reflect back on the passage in which Aedes and I were discussing the nature of metaphysical objects. The passage from Augustine is directly relevant to that debate; and also the use of the word 'incorporeal' which was previously touched on in this thread.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 04:37 am
@jeeprs,
This argument is now turning up all over the place. I was just reading an essay on the marvellous Metanexus Website: an evolutionary argument for dualism, which concludes

Quote:
Discovering the Immaterial

...If the environment that humans occupy contains not only material realities but also immaterial ones, can we then infer that human consciousness exists to discover and exploit these objects? Again, evolution suggests that this is so.

I'm not referring to ghosts...but to objects whose power in the world is far more evident: numbers.

I suggest that we discover numbers and their relations by modeling them in our brains - or in clay tablets, notebooks, and computers. Moreover, I call on the increasing body of evidence that our brains are evolved not only for arbitrary human language but also for the universal language of math. The transcendental quality of math can be framed in cultural terms, but it cannot be denied. A prime is a prime, whatever symbols denote it.

In his marvelous book A Mathematical Mystery Tour, A.K. Dewdney makes an extended case for a strong form of mathematical realism. He argues (through a series of fictional interlocutors) that numbers are not only real but that they occupy their own realm, to which he gives the delightful name holos. The holos, in turn, gives rise to the cosmos, which, he rather convincingly argues, is dependent on equations, some of which humans have discovered. Equations, one of his characters argues, "provide all the information you could want about a hydrogen atom. There is nothing else, in effect. You could even say that not even the energy is real. Only the information about its behavior is real."
(Emphasis added.)

This is exactly the same argument as I put forward on 28th June in a debate on whether 'consciousness is a biological problem' where I concluded:

Quote:
Therefore our very consciousness has evolved in accordance to the pre-existing intelligibility and order of the natural realm. So you can say that the intelligibility of the Universe must have pre-existed us, in order for our consciousness to work as effectively as it now does. Our intellectual ability evolved in response to the pressures of survival, in other words, the brain structures which supported just this type of consciousness developed through natural selection. As this happened, we realised greater and greater levels of consciousness (a process which is still in progress.) But that of which we are conscious, and to a large extent the means by which we are conscious of it, pre-exists us, and in an important sense 'gave birth' to us.
pagan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 07:41 am
@jeeprs,
hi guys

yeh i referred to david deutsch of course because he has some very interesting mathematical things to say re QM theory. His metaphysics (if any lol) is definitely materialist. He sometimes veers from the most simplistic to the intriquing in the same argument. on a TED video he stands in front of a learned audience and proceeds to tell them where they are confused lol What follows is a marvellously patronizing account of our primitive ancestors grappling with what knowledge is, and rarely experiencing anything new in their lives as they stare blinking into the sunlight lol For example of the great cave art discovered he feels it is obvious that they wished they knew how to paint properly lololol fantastic. The audience sort of giggled at that one. A quick sketch of religion and hey presto the enlightenment saves the day. Shame about empiricism he says, though he does recognise that it was a stepping stone to the truth. Which is that science gives us knowledge of the world in a form that cannot be seen directly, eg mathematics. His argument against religion and empiricism being simple..... (paraphrasing) - 'we have never seen a real bible or anything else outside our brains.'

He does raise one interesting critique. Science gives a good descriptions of the world because a 'good' description is hard to change if it fails the test of experiment. 'Bad' ones are easy to change in the light of new evidence. Religion gives particularily bad descriptions, in mythical form, such that if it is realised for example that the earth goes round the sun while spinning on its own axis, then each religion can tweek a mythical character or two here, and a few god perspectives there, and hey presto everything is in order again Smile Interestingly he does recognise therefore that 'religions' are testable, albeit for him in a very nebulous sense. Creationists for example can explain fossils older than 10 thousand years as, 'the work of the devil who planted them there to trick us'. Though this does parallel dawkins trick of focussing upon very simplistic and antagonistic spiritual replies to science and evolution, which of course is what the fundamentalist scientists almost want more of, it seems to me..... contrary to their claims.

but yeh. materialism for me fails miserably as a metaphysical position too.

Re information. Well thats becoming a tricky one to define. Entropy for example can be described in terms of information loss and again in complexity, but other scientists do not see entropy as relating to information at all. There is more than one kind of 'materialist' view of information, as well as a tendency in our computer age to be seduced by the simulacrum where materiality becomes information. Its not nailed down yet, and personally i can't see how it could be since it is so intrinsically connected to language and narrative. Evidence and information are close bed fellows me thinks, especially when communication (and therefore culture) is involved.
0 Replies
 
QuinticNon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 10:26 pm
@jeeprs,
He (Dewdney) argues... that numbers are not only real but that they occupy their own realm...

But is he arguing that numbers are sentient entities?


---------- Post added 01-18-2010 at 10:48 PM ----------

I believe it was "The Invisible Landscape" where Terrence McKenna related the visions of his psychedelic adventures. He met entities in there... "Self Dribbling Bejeweled Elf Machines" as he called them. They were sentient entities that were based entirely upon Information. This is decades before our current Info Theory discussions.

He said they wanted to teach him how to use physical language as a mechanism to manifest thought into reality. They showed him a visual of the essence of thought that they produced by speaking forth into existence. As he mimicked, it sounded very akin to Speaking in Tongues in the Pentecostal Christian Denominations.

But as the Psychedelic Entities spoke their own thoughts into existence, out of thin air appeared a striking three dimensional object of moving crystal, blood, swirling rainbow spheres, tears, flesh, char... An entire visual culmination of the essence was presented upon him.

My take is this... in the manner of humans speaking a skyscraper into existence. Yes, the skyscraper is borne in mind. The first speech is from the one who envisions it, speaking it upon the plans of an architect, speaking it as the orders to a job foreman, who speaks it upon a construction crew. The marketing team is speaking the promotion of the building to clients and tenants, building anticipation, expectation, closing deals, signing leases. The end clients base their livelihoods on the efficiency of the skyscraper.

What we think of as "just an idea", has the power to affect innumerable lives for decades. The actual "architectural plans" of the building are the empirical evidence that this skyscraper was in fact a product of sentient authorship. Yet they do not account for the full essence of being that the skyscraper has to influence fortunes, create hardships, mount campaigns, cast shadows, house deception, prosper hope, stage infidelity, hear secrets, cast doubt, and even be the base camp to launch "just an idea" for another skyscraper to cast a new shadow over it.

Terrence vaguely makes the argument, (at least how I read it), that the embodiment of essence cannot be fully illustrated with just language alone. Words are insufficient to encompass the mass effect of the essence. And so, the Psychedelic Entities showed him the visual of swirling mass, not as a representation, but as the actual full essence of what the "idea" behind a skyscraper really was.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 11:05 pm
@jeeprs,
I had a look at the book review (of Dwedney) on Amazon. He is not arguing that, and I don't know of anybody who would argue that. His approach is similar to Platonism (and I am all too aware of how limited my reading is of Platonism). But anyway, Plato believed that the world of Forms and Universals, of which number was an instance, was 'the reality', and this mortal world is just a shadow, emanation, or copy of the Forms. Individual things only exist by virtue of being an instance of a form of some type. This is the idea of archetypes, ideal forms, and the rest, which has had an enormous influence on Western civilization. I think it was with this in mind that Whitehead said the history of Western philosophy is simply a series of footnotes to Plato.

Of course the major objection to this idea is simply that there is no such realm. Aristotle rejected much of this thinking as 'dangerous to science'. And indeed, it seems completely impossible, if you try to imagine 'a realm' in which there are real mathematical forms, and so on. My understanding is that there is no such 'realm' as such, but that the forms and indeed the mathematical regularities of the cosmos were embedded in the fabric of the universe at the time it was created; so indeed they are like 'the divine ideas'. So this realm really is transcendent. It is not something consisting of objects in three (or four) dimensional space. This is why you can't imagine it; it truly is 'meta-physical', the basis of how physical reality is manifested. However, the 'active intellect' is able to 'apprehend the Forms', through something that is really very close to 'the divine vision' (see The Shape of Ancient Thought by Thomas McEvilly, for a comparison of Greek, Hindu and Buddhist ideas of the higher reality.) This is very much the spiritual side of Platonism and Neo-platonism, which was imported into Christianity via Augustine and pseudo-Dionysius (and largely jettisoned by The Empiricists.)

The Forms mean that things are inclined to manifest in certain ways - development is not actually random, but a process whereby nature reveals the actual underlying Forms: of Man, Cat, Horse, and so on. Prior to Darwinian theory, this was all quite respectable. But it is quite incompatiible with the idea of 'random progressions' and is largely rejected now. (I do wonder, however, whether something like this might underlie Gould's 'punctuated equilibrium' theory.)

It also means that certain ratios and spatial relationships are fundamental to anything that exists (such as the Golden Mean.) This element is from Pythagoras who was predecessor to Plato; indeed there was a carving on the Academy which said 'no man who does not understand geometry may enter here'. Pythagoras, as is well known, said that 'everything is number'. I am starting to understand what he meant. And I really think Modern Science would not have started were it not for the heritage that came from this way of thinking. (After all, it didn't start in India or China.)

So in the Classical world, this is the way in which the divine intellect was uinderstood to 'inform creation'. It is quite different to the idea of 'Intelligent Design' but quite compatible with your idea of Intelligent Evolution. (I will have more to say on the topic after I have received Lovejoy's Great Chain of Being from Amazon.)

Now all of this is my own, very idosyncratic interpretation of Platonism. And Platonism has been thoroughly criticized by many great philosophers over the centuries. Most people nowadays would think it was basically a mythic vision, or something similar. Modern philosophers would generally regard it as of interest to scholars of medieval or ancient philosophy. But I am not so sure. The relationship between 'information' and 'form' was noted in the OP.

I think it is in the idea of the 'randomness' of evolution that modern science has actually become irrational. I am sure Plato and Aristotle would have loved the Descent of Species had they known of it, and would have regarded it as a splendid illustration of the rational nature of creation. As to the idea that this preceded 'by chance adaption', they would probably have a quiet laugh. But otherwise, I am sure it is a completely compatible theory.

Or maybe I am dreamin' :bigsmile:
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 11:58 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;120956 wrote:
I think it is in the idea of the 'randomness' of evolution that modern science has actually become irrational. I am sure Plato and Aristotle would have loved the Descent of Species had they known of it, and would have regarded it as a splendid illustration of the rational nature of creation. As to the idea that this preceded 'by chance adaption', they would probably have a quiet laugh. But otherwise, I am sure it is a completely compatible theory.
Or maybe I am dreamin' :bigsmile:
I think Plato's forms correspond to what Whitehead would call the "primordial unchanging aspect of gods nature" they are the "goals" towards which nature is striving and struggling. The process of the universe overall is anything but "random", "formless" or "chaos". Spirit become matter, striving to become spirit again.

In modern terms there might not be a form for the ideal "horse" say but the forms are more things like mathematical ideals,higher levels of experience, golden ratios, the creation of beauty, elegance, and symmetry (things of value). Sort of a tip of the scale towards the pythagoreans.
0 Replies
 
 

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