hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Apr, 2009 07:24 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Just a few questions. Where is dark matter in the universe? Is it just observed 'inter-galactically' sorta thing or is it said to construe throughout all the nooks and crannies of the universe. When they say a galaxy has fives times as much mass as expected and they find there is this dark matter, in what regions of the galaxy is dark matter observed?


I believe that dark matter is believed to be omnipresent in the universe. Dark matter does not reflect light, and so it cannot be observed directly. It's gravitational effects on surrounding matter are the only things that can be observed.
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Apr, 2009 08:04 pm
@hue-man,
Yes so why is it said to 'surround' matter?

Maybe dark matter is just an effect to an excessive amount of gravitational influence on a topological region of space time; that it amplifies the effect baryonic mass has on bending space-time. I mean, if we looked at the expansion of the universe, it's acceleration as a curved line where at first the expansion is shallow and then it booms. Why does it go to this sort of accelerative boom all of a sudden. Could we look at the expansion of the universe as topologically equivalent to the effect mass has on space-time? After a certain amount of mass bends space-time, the fabric perhaps bends in a seemingly piece-wise manner (ofcourse not intrinsically so as that would be impossible).

Dark matter is not baryonic and it does not reflect light. Well what if it is just some behaviour of the bending of space-time. Though the whole concept of space-time is analogical, I don't really know how else to put it.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Apr, 2009 10:14 pm
@jeeprs,
Quote:
The existence of matter that doesn't reflect light

Dark matter is not dark because it doesn't reflect light! It is not as if there are all these black stars hanging around between galaxies. That is what is so strange about it. IT IS NOT MADE OF ATOMS. It is not 'stuff'.

Anyway, I am not going to try and venture too far into it. As I said at the outset, my understanding, such as it is, is poetic rather than technical. And prompted by the realisation that reality is much stranger than the simple ideas we have of the universe out there.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 03:36 am
@hue-man,
hue-man wrote:
I believe that dark matter is believed to be omnipresent in the universe. Dark matter does not reflect light, and so it cannot be observed directly. It's gravitational effects on surrounding matter are the only things that can be observed.
So how do you examine dark matter apart from its effect?it does more than not reflect light.Saying it does not reflect light does no describe it.It only appears to have effect by its mass and what is mass? If we have the effect of mass but we have not got the visible mass, just saying i believe it does not reflect light is not carrying the philosophical debate forward.We are dealing with unknowns, surely a good reason to speculate.Could this mass , vibrations, exist in other universes, invisible but by its presence effectual..??
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 08:23 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
So how do you examine dark matter apart from its effect?it does more than not reflect light.Saying it does not reflect light does no describe it.It only appears to have effect by its mass and what is mass? If we have the effect of mass but we have not got the visible mass, just saying i believe it does not reflect light is not carrying the philosophical debate forward.We are dealing with unknowns, surely a good reason to speculate.Could this mass , vibrations, exist in other universes, invisible but by its presence effectual..??


Saying that dark matter does not reflect light does describe something about it. What is mass??? Come on, you know what mass is. I am not merely saying that I believe it doesn't reflect light. If dark matter does exist, and we have every reason to believe it does, then I know that it doesn't reflect light. If it reflected light it would be visible.

I believe that your last sentence shows that you are still dealing with the parallel universe "theory". As I said before, that "theory" is a result of the misinterpretation of the phenomenon known as quantum leap. If you believe in the parallel universe "theory", then according to the so-called theory, parallel universes have no effect on our universe.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 08:48 am
@hue-man,
hue-man wrote:
Saying that dark matter does not reflect light does describe something about it. What is mass??? Come on, you know what mass is. I am not merely saying that I believe it doesn't reflect light. If dark matter does exist, and we have every reason to believe it does, then I know that it doesn't reflect light. If it reflected light it would be visible.

I believe that your last sentence shows that you are still dealing with the parallel universe "theory". As I said before, that "theory" is a result of the misinterpretation of the phenomenon known as quantum leap. If you believe in the parallel universe "theory", then according to the so-called theory, parallel universes have no effect on our universe.
Im not assuming anything by others proposed theories.You have supposed i am talking about your conception of a parallel universes, i have no view on this theory, its not the subject of debate.I am only commenting on the possibility that this the majority of experienced mass is not visible in this universe and it could be a reflection of multi verses corresponding to the total, divided by the assumed amount of mass observed in this universe.This could give a possible amount of other universes or should i say other views of this universe.
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 10:01 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
Im not assuming anything by others proposed theories.You have supposed i am talking about your conception of a parallel universes, i have no view on this theory, its not the subject of debate.I am only commenting on the possibility that this the majority of experienced mass is not visible in this universe and it could be a reflection of multi verses corresponding to the total, divided by the assumed amount of mass observed in this universe.This could give a possible amount of other universes or should i say other views of this universe.


I'm not a physics expert, but I think your physics are wrong. You seem to think that it could be a reflection of a multi-verse, but you want to see if others agree. I would advise that you speak to a physicist.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 10:39 am
@hue-man,
hue-man wrote:
I'm not a physics expert, but I think your physics are wrong. You seem to think that it could be a reflection of a multi-verse, but you want to see if others agree. I would advise that you speak to a physicist.
As physics has no theories to explain dark matter or its invisibility, i dont think we have much chance of that.What physics do you think im referring to when i muse? Thanks xris..
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 02:02 pm
@xris,
Invisibility can be explained by the bending of space-time. This is how invisibility is currently done in 2D right now! Smile

Not very practical yes, but same concept could apply here in this thread of musings in that the bending of space-time might be all that's happening. What if these pockets of space in which there is dark matter is really just areas of space where light doesn't reach because space-time has been bent in a certain way. Perhaps an emergent kind of bending occurs when there is a specific amount of mass present in a topological area like a galaxy perhaps?

I'm sure physicists have thought about this, and ruled stuff like this out but I'd always like to learn why.
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 02:11 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
As physics has no theories to explain dark matter or its invisibility, i dont think we have much chance of that.What physics do you think im referring to when i muse? Thanks xris..


Physicists can't explain dark matter's invisibility because they don't know what it's made of. All they know is that it doesn't emit or reflect enough light to be seen.

A physicist may better help explain to you why dark matter may or may not be the result of a multi-verse. If you want to be better informed, and possibly end our layman speculations, then I advise you to speak with an expert.

Invisibility in physics
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 02:37 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Invisibility can be explained by the bending of space-time. This is how invisibility is currently done in 2D right now! Smile

Not very practical yes, but same concept could apply here in this thread of musings in that the bending of space-time might be all that's happening. What if these pockets of space in which there is dark matter is really just areas of space where light doesn't reach because space-time has been bent in a certain way. Perhaps an emergent kind of bending occurs when there is a specific amount of mass present in a topological area like a galaxy perhaps?

I'm sure physicists have thought about this, and ruled stuff like this out but I'd always like to learn why.
whatever it has or is happening its happening on a enormous scale and why is it invisible and other matter not.It has to be made of a certain strange matter or it is vibrating in a diferent realm of existences.I do believe that it is only relevant by its gravitational effect, it can hide its face but not its weight.I think Hues right we need a physicist to bring a bit of reality into the debate.
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 02:43 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
whatever it has or is happening its happening on a enormous scale and why is it invisible and other matter not.It has to be made of a certain strange matter or it is vibrating in a diferent realm of existences.I do believe that it is only relevant by its gravitational effect, it can hide its face but not its weight.I think Hues right we need a physicist to bring a bit of reality into the debate.


Dark matter is not the only thing in the universe that doesn't reflect light, so it's not as strange as you think. The only strange thing is that we don't know what it's made of because it's not made of atoms.

If this dark matter is coming from another "realm of existence" or another universe then it wouldn't have any more of a gravitational effect than any other form of matter from that universe. As I said, I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure that this is bad physics. We really do need an expert in this discussion.
0 Replies
 
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 02:50 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
whatever it has or is happening its happening on a enormous scale


I know, that's kinda my point in the matter here. If dark matter only occurs on a macro scale then I doubt its matter. But this is where I feel we need the empirical facts here.

Also, I wonder what you mean by universes colliding to produce the phenomenon of dark matter. If two universes collide I can't possibly imagine dark matter would be the only effect of such a phenomenon.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 02:59 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
I know, that's kinda my point in the matter here. If dark matter only occurs on a macro scale then I doubt its matter. But this is where I feel we need the empirical facts here.

Also, I wonder what you mean by universes colliding to produce the phenomenon of dark matter. If two universes collide I can't possibly imagine dark matter would be the only effect of such a phenomenon.
Did i say they where colliding? i cant recall me saying that, sorry.I think they may coexist.Im not making any statements of belief here just observing what others inform me and speculating on the possibilities.I find it the most intriguing thing science can dangle in my face, the nature of the universe.
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 06:22 pm
@xris,
Xris:), when you introduced the multi-verse concept I was assuming (and pardon the assumption) that you were on a train of thought involving universes having their influences coalesce with each other(to put it more technically then 'colliding').

However, you seem to have another idea in which we can have a reflection of another universe on our universe. I don't really know what you mean by this otherwise.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 04:04 am
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Xris:), when you introduced the multi-verse concept I was assuming (and pardon the assumption) that you were on a train of thought involving universes having their influences coalesce with each other(to put it more technically then 'colliding').

However, you seem to have another idea in which we can have a reflection of another universe on our universe. I don't really know what you mean by this otherwise.
I don't really know what i mean either.How can i put it? in human terms, if you are in a room and you know who is with you but in another room there are more people that you dont know.You know them only by the way they have influenced those in the room with you.There is a house full of rooms all with people influencing each other by just their presence.Its not exactly as i mean but its the nearest i can get..sorry xris
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 01:14 pm
@xris,
So people in another room can influence people in your room, but not you yourself. The only reason you know there are other people in other rooms is their influence on the other people in your room.

How do you know if the influence on the other people in your room is coming from another room? Perhaps it is all the workings of the same room.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2009 03:10 am
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
So people in another room can influence people in your room, but not you yourself. The only reason you know there are other people in other rooms is their influence on the other people in your room.

How do you know if the influence on the other people in your room is coming from another room? Perhaps it is all the workings of the same room.
Dont take it literally, i did say i was trying.Im trying to say we could have several universes existing along side each other or even in the same space.Their vibration not visible to us, their mass only expressing itself in a gravitational effect.Thanks xris..
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 02:37 pm
@jeeprs,
I have not read through all the posts, so forgive me if I am repeating something

Dark Matter is a reality but cannot be seen by our optical instruments. Astronomers know it is there by its effect on its surrounding. Most of the matter in the universe is in fact this dark matter, only a tiny proportion of matter or mass of the universe is radiant light energy we see in our telescopes

Astronomers also know that dark matter can act like a colossal lens and the use these lenses effect to get a better view of the strange object from the early universe called quasars

There is also a huge quantity of the mysterious dark energy and it is due to this energy that many astrophysicist is the reason the the universe expansion is not slowing down as expected but indeed accelerating at a colossal speed out into infinity

This dark energy is thought to be the prime reason for propelling the universe outward forever

Alan
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 May, 2009 03:21 am
@Alan McDougall,
Thank you Alan i do believe it was explained something like that earlier.It developed into why it is not visible.
0 Replies
 
 

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