Spiritual practice, thought and freedom

@Jackofalltrades phil,

Jackofalltrades;97572 wrote:

To control desire means to control al that unwanted or harmful desire, that has a debilitating effect either on the individual or on the society, partly or wholly.

But the question is, who is controlling what in all this? The idea of 'killing desire' or 'controlling desire' is a contradiction. 'I want not to want anything'. Certainly a healthy self-discipline is necessary however the real 'agent of change' is not effort (not that effort is unnecessary) but insight. 'You will know the truth and the truth will set you free'. Krishnamurti: 'It is the truth that liberates you, not your effort to be free'. Nevertheless, right effort is necessary otherwise one will just continue to act out of habit.

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@Eudaimon,

what is this about killing desire? desire is what caused the world to be created i think...there is nothing wrong with desire, it is a motivator and a good thing. as i recall reading, the issue is not to be invested in the outcome of what one desires.

simple daily life examples: i desire to listen to a new cd i just bought and when i am ready to sit down and hear it someone comes to the door and asks me to do something or other. so i drop the thought of music for the time being, and go with this person in a sort of 'anything can happen' mood, and sometimes things like these turn out to be the most meaningful of all. or i want to do something but i cant because the weather turns bad, but by staying at home i meet someone who i otherwise would have missed...etc

or lifetime goal example: pervez wants to be a singer but his father wants him to be a doctor, so he goes along with the father rather than causing a rift between the family and ultimately he is heard singing and asked to perform qawwali at a dargah which was never done before, his father is impressed and gives his blessing and he goes on to change his name to nusrat and become a world famous musician. but throughout, he did not cling to any particular desire, but fully lived whatever was happening.

it isnt a fatalistic attitude either, because one can always put in their two cents, give it the best shot, but then once the arrow flies, let it go and be satisfied with wherever the arrow lands. make the best of whatever there is once you have done your part, i mean...something like that.

poetry always says this sort of thing best i think:
[CENTER]No, I will never shut the door of my senses.[/CENTER]
[CENTER]The delights of sight and hearing and touch [/CENTER]
[CENTER]will bear Thy delight.[/CENTER]
[CENTER]
[/CENTER]
[CENTER]Yes, all my illusions [/CENTER]
[CENTER]will burn into illumination of joy,[/CENTER]
[CENTER]and all my desires ripen into fruits of love.

.......rabindranath tagore

[/CENTER]

1 Reply

@salima,

jeeprs;97588 wrote:

But the question is, who is controlling what in all this? The idea of 'killing desire' or 'controlling desire' is a contradiction. 'I want not to want anything'. Certainly a healthy self-discipline is necessary however the real 'agent of change' is not effort (not that effort is unnecessary) but insight. 'You will know the truth and the truth will set you free'. Krishnamurti: 'It is the truth that liberates you, not your effort to be free'. Nevertheless, right effort is necessary otherwise one will just continue to act out of habit.

How is the idea of killing a desire or controlling desire any way contradictory? please explain.

Your quote: 'I want not to want anything'...is utter misrepresentation of what had been said. Your interpretaion is flawed. Wants has its own meaning and connotations; whereas desires are diffrent. A grasp of language and word-meanings are necessary to discuss philosophy. Pardon me for being a bit impatient. For me, distortions cannot be excused.

As for Krishnamurthi, what K observes is no truth-statements. You may have the ardous task of explaining what 'Truth' is ; then let us know about 'liberation' from what,
Furthermore, according to the Indian thought-philosophy, i would like to point out and to repeat, there are many routes/ways/path/avenues/yogas/approaches (etc, etc) on the destination called liberation. Your K is talking about one such approach.

Apart from the query above, Please let me know what 'healthy discipline' is all about. Discipline is a kind of control.

So, you have said the same thing what i said albeit in different words. :bigsmile:

salima;97660 wrote:

what is this about killing desire? desire is what caused the world to be created i think...there is nothing wrong with desire, it is a motivator and a good thing. as i recall reading, the issue is not to be invested in the outcome of what one desires.

simple daily life examples: i desire to listen to a new cd i just bought and ...

hello salimaji.....

You need to type 'maya' or illusions, and google to the right sites, like the religious kind, and find out what kind of desires are bad or good. Desire is being deliberately used broadly out here, to divert from the main issue.

It would, therefore be 'desirable' if we know what harm some kind of cravings, passions, wants, needs does affect the Mind and body of a person.

The desire of poet to write a good poem is a good desire.
The desire of a lecher to rape a young girl is bad.

So lets be clear of what kind of desire's should be nipped in the bud, and what kind need to be encouraged. It was clearly written in my post, i dont know how people overlook certain points or sentences.

This kind of discriminating between words and concepts are discussed in college level classes. We need not waste precious time on this.

By the way, the poem was superb. The desire in it is a desirable thing. I agree with you, that without desire to express ones thoughts no poems would have ever been written.

What we are , what humans have acheived is because of the doings of desire. Wisdom lies in discriminating the right and the wrong; the positive and the negative.

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@Eudaimon,

"Controlling desire" is a contradiction, because it is desire seeking to control desire. But am my grasp of the language is obviously flawed, perhaps I should refrain from commenting further.

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@Eudaimon,

What happens if you don't control desire Jeeprs? A mess that's what. Look at power hungry people for example, where does it get them exactly? No where!
Thanks.

1 Reply

@Caroline,

Caroline;97714 wrote:

What happens if you don't control desire Jeeprs? A mess that's what. Look at power hungry people for example, where does it get them exactly? No where!
Thanks.

I desire my girlfriend. Should I not do that?
I also desired a motorcycle, so I bought one.
As of yet, neither of these desires has caused a mess.

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@Eudaimon,

I desire a non-polluting Ferrari, depends on what kind of desire don't you think! Motor cycle cool, what kind? If it doesn't harm then all is ok!!!
I desire my bloke too ha ha ha. I desire a lot of things similar to you. I desire good music. I could go on. I desire a sea view or something nice.
Nice things are ok as long as it's not harming directly or indirectly yes? Sometimes we have no choice like petrol run cars and bikes.
Thanks.

1 Reply

@Eudaimon,

when you are free and happy, you are wanting nothing. Obviously as human beings we have normal wants and needs. But they can easily become cravings, inwardly, for security and affirmation, outwardly for signs of status and possessions. And once they start to proliferate, where does it end? At what point do you stop owning and become owned? Especially in a consumer society where there is constant pressure to buy and own.

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@Caroline,

Caroline;97721 wrote:

[/COLOR]Nice things are ok as long as it's not harming directly or indirectly yes? Sometimes we have no choice like petrol run cars and bikes.
Thanks.

But you do have a choice. A personal choice. You could choose to walk, for instance.

Can you name something that you think is nice that doesn't either directly or indirectly harm something else?

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@Eudaimon,

Billy Idol, (music) and being with my man, (love).
Cheers!

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@Caroline,

Caroline;97753 wrote:

Billy Idol, (music)

According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), CDs and DVDs are typically manufactured by combining various mined metals (aluminum, gold, silver and nickel) with petroleum-derived plastics, lacquers and dyes. This can't possibly be good for the environment.

Caroline;97753 wrote:

and being with my man, (love).
Cheers!

People often break up with one person who loves them to be with a different person. This can be very painful.

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@Eudaimon,

Like I said TickTock, we have no choice in how things how are made. Yes where there is no pain there is no love.Thanks.

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@Caroline,

Caroline;97769 wrote:

..where there is no pain there is no love.

I like the ritual where the Buddhists make the giant sand painting and then sweep it up and toss it off the side of the mountain.

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@Arjuna,

Arjuna;97780 wrote:

I like the ritual where the Buddhists make the giant sand painting and then sweep it up and toss it off the side of the mountain.

Why do you? It seems an awful waste of time.

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@Eudaimon,

It is a meditation on impermanence. Of course this might seem a waste of time, but so could anything else one does.

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@Caroline,

jeeprs;97712 wrote:

"Controlling desire" is a contradiction, because it is desire seeking to control desire. But am my grasp of the language is obviously flawed, perhaps I should refrain from commenting further.

I recommend and advice a book by Readers Digest 'Use the Right Word'- A Modern Guide to Synonyms. or anything similar. This one is good because it got explanatory commentaries on what , where and why certain words should be used or not used (otherwise known as connotations).

Now for your benefit, Jeeprs.......it is the Will that controls desire, not desire itslef. I hope this will end the diversion we had on language.

jeeprs;97742 wrote:

when you are free and happy, you are wanting nothing. Obviously as human beings we have normal wants and needs. But they can easily become cravings, inwardly, for security and affirmation, outwardly for signs of status and possessions. And once they start to proliferate, where does it end?

I am happy to know that your language skills are not all that bad, perhaps it was a onetime mistake - mistakes do occur when we get enthusiatic.
I am also happy, that your comments and questions (the meaning conveyed) are indeed philosophical.

But, in the above post, you harped on everything but the word desire. I wonder why? Craving for status and possessions is a form of desire (it is not a 'want', in the general sense) and thats what is being referred to as unwanted desire. The proliferation of which, is better explained by the term Maya or Illusions.

Now, guys let us get back to the topic rasied in the OP. Thanks

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@Caroline,

Caroline;97769 wrote:

Like I said TickTock, we have no choice in how things how are made. Yes where there is no pain there is no love.Thanks.

This morning the waitress at the restaurant where I had breakfast asked me how I wanted my eggs. I asked that they be made over easy, and that was how I got them. I have had similar results when ordering steak a certain way, and when ordering a specific concoction at ice cream parlors. So maybe we do have some choice in how some things are made?

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@Eudaimon,

Eudaimon;89584 wrote:

into being, that was spontaneous and not the outcome of thought, it just happened on its own. Now I am arranging everything so as to repeat that experience. But it doesn't work... Why? because everything changed, because now I am not ready to receive that. No one can enter in a river twice. Thus all which is made by thought deos not correspond with the now, but with yesterday.
Practice is impossible without thought, practice is impossible without all those things we learnt and take for truth about ourselves. Yet all that can never correspond with the Present Moment, with the Now, with me of the present day, not of the yesterday.
So what happens when we understand this? There comes the freedom, the only possible freedom which is not the result of one thought dominating over the others. When we give up all desire we remain one-on-one with the present moment, without desire, which is always the outcome of the past. This state cannot be attained through any practice, through adherence to moral precepts or whatever, this is not the outcome of the will or thought. It comes spontaneously and authomatically when the inability of ALL desires, however noble, is understood.

so i gather the point you are trying to make is that the practice is not the goal. or that the goal can happen without any practice. basically i think you are stating that the attitude that will solve all our thought distortions is to be in the now without thought. i suppose that is true, and if you dont mind i will relate a little story.

when my son was a teen-ager he and his friend were in the kitchen and i was making breakfast. my son started complaining about something he wanted that i couldnt afford to gbet hiom, andor something that was impossible to achieve, and i came out with a burst of the things that i also wanted which i was actually patiently waiting for, and i asked his friend 'what about you, jim, what do you want?' and he said 'right now i cant think of anything...' and he just sat there and ate the waffles happily...i couldnt imagine there could be a teen-ager who didnt want anything.

by the way, the boy is a thug and a thief-the most reprehensible character i have ever known. human nature never ceases to astound me...and of all the friends my son has ever had, he is the only one who procreated-twice last i heard.

so i guess i am saying you can be in the present moment and enjoy yourself and not want anything but it doesnt necessarily make the kind of person anyone would want as a friend. just a happy one.

anyway, it doesnt hurt to have a practice while you are waiting to become enlightened...i dont think it will inhibit anyone's progress particularly. it is only objectionable to me when someone says their process or practice is the best for everyone or the only one that will work.

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@Eudaimon,

Using a thorn to remove a thorn. We have the thorn of habituation embedded in the flesh. The thorn of spiritual practise is used to remove this thorn. When it is removed, both can be discarded.

(In most cases, this is some time away:-)

1 Reply

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;97851 wrote:

Using a thorn to remove a thorn. We have the thorn of habituation embedded in the flesh. The thorn of spiritual practise is used to remove this thorn. When it is removed, both can be discarded.

(In most cases, this is some time away:-)

one of the questions most people ask is why some people get it and some dont. and i also wondered, is it something in the person's makeup that causes them to make the leap of faith rather than the method they are using. the fact that they are trying some practice doesnt even necessarily mean they are a certain type of person or have a certain goal to reach-some people use those methods obsessively or addictively...and of course there is the saying 'when the student is ready the teacher appears'.

so i think it is a question of methods, attitude and timing at least rather than any one single factor.

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