Elmud
 
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2009 04:24 pm
What ever I do for someone else, whether it be building some cabinets or trimming out a house, I have to stand good for my services. If something is wrong, I have to fix it. I have to warranty what I do. I think that applies in most business. If it does not, that business will not be in business for long.

So, why are used car sales exempt from this? Yes, they do put tags on the car stating "as is". No warranty. Still, shouldn't they be accountable in some way for their services?

My daughter bought a jeep from a used car salesman. She is no mechanic. She couldn't have possibly known that there was a leak in the fuel line. The jeep caught on fire, fortunately she got out in time, and it burned up entirely. Still yet, she had to pay the balance on the jeep. I think this is crap.

I think at one time there was a lemon law in Colorado. Protecting the public from these vampires. I just think there should be a national law that makes businesses responsible for what they do. Like the rest of us are.
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GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 02:34 pm
@Elmud,
Do you expect a lot of quality from Yard Sale Merchandise?
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 02:58 pm
@GoshisDead,
I was completely unaware that a sale can be a one-sided transaction.

Since it must be assumed that your daughter was forced into buying that vehicle, she is not bound to fulfill it.

Quote:
Like the rest of us are.


Then buck up to the fact that you made an ultra-risky investment.
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 03:53 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
I was completely unaware that a sale can be a one-sided transaction.
.

Yes. Shame on her for trusting the "man". After all, she should have known better. And, shame on me for not beating the pulp out of the man.
VideCorSpoon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 04:08 pm
@Elmud,
Typically, "lemon laws" refer to new vehicles whose performance and quality fail to meet state specified standards... not federal, unless it violates some sort of interstate commence law or something like that. But level of quality of a car is not compulsory, it is an optional thing. Notice that most cars have a specific amount of time, say 12,000 miles or 2 years limited warranty on power train. This is meant to fulfill a number of different liabilities car companies face on a daily basis. When a company promises you that 12 mo. or 2 year warranty, that is in a sense their self imposed lemon law. It's good for business and their own reputation. But because it is self imposed, it can be limited in the scope of that which is covered. For instance, power train does not include things like air filters or things that are accessories to the revolution of the engine. So simply put, lemon law applies to new cars, which many car companies cover. Now here is the rub. Say I go down to the BMW dealership, and my brand new 3-series has a thrown piston, I am entitled to a new car, right? Wrong. Typically, you are entitled to the repair of that car three consecutive times. After that third time, you can apply to the lemon law and ask for a new version of the same or lesser version of that car. BS, right? The amount of money and time spent going back and forth three times is very costly, which the dealership is not obligated to pay.

As to the "as-is" warning. When you see an "as-is" sign, beware. "As-is" implies sufficient notice and fulfills their due diligence to tell you that something is amiss with that car. Many people don't think about that legal aspect when they put "as-is" on a used car, but it is a valid form of warning for the consumer.

Now for your daughters situation. She bought a jeep from a used car salesman. Legally speaking, it was up to her at that time before she bought the car and signed the contract to get the car checked by a third party mechanic. Like when you buy a house, it's always good to get it inspected before you buy it outright. So in this respect, she may be stuck with the balance of the car. However, there are loopholes and alternative actions you can take.

One loophole is to approach the issue from a legal standpoint. Your daughter bought a car for the used car salesman. How did she buy it? Via contract. What are the elements of a contract? There are five prime parts of a contract. Violate any one of the five basic elements and the entire contract is void. The elements of a contract are (and in successive order); Offer, acceptance, consideration, capacity, and legality. The salesman offers the car. Is it what was advertised? There was an "as-is" on it, so this may not be a very fruitful venue. Acceptance is your daughters voluntary approval to accept the terms of the cars sale. As with offer, the "as-is" is something difficult to ignore. ConsiderationCapacity may be something to work with. Is your daughter over 18? If not, she may be held in a different view. This may also affect the legality
0 Replies
 
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 04:10 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead wrote:
Do you expect a lot of quality from Yard Sale Merchandise?

A poor analogy. Used car sales advertise quality,and on the average, produce little. So, it is false advertising. It is deceptive, and it is wrong. And, they especially take advantage of women, who are more apt to trust men because for some odd reason, women still have this idea that men are suppose to help them. Yeah. A very poor analogy indeed. Thanks.
Justin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 05:13 pm
@Elmud,
Elmud wrote:
So, why are used car sales exempt from this? Yes, they do put tags on the car stating "as is". No warranty. Still, shouldn't they be accountable in some way for their services?

Used cars are AS-IS and that's that. As Vide explained the 5 elements of the agreement, it looks as though they have been met.

Elmud wrote:
My daughter bought a jeep from a used car salesman. She is no mechanic. She couldn't have possibly known that there was a leak in the fuel line. The jeep caught on fire, fortunately she got out in time, and it burned up entirely. Still yet, she had to pay the balance on the jeep. I think this is crap.


Why was your daughter alone at a used car dealership buying a Jeep of all things? That's like sending a sheep into a pack of wolves. Besides, a Jeep is a heap and the transmission will go, it's not a matter of when and since they all go there is a shortage of them. It's a Chrysler product which I wouldn't recommend anyone buy and that comes from experience.

Something we don't know is how long after the purchase did the car burn up? She could have bumped a curb or something that caused the leak but it's not the dealerships fault, they don't make Chrysler they just peddle them.

Another thing, if I buy a used car in Ohio and there's financing involved, the bank says I have to have full coverage insurance which would ultimately pay for the entire loan and the insurance company could pursue the insurance company of the dealership if they suspected foul play. You should never drive a car around that has a balance on it without being fully covered.

Elmud wrote:
I think at one time there was a lemon law in Colorado. Protecting the public from these vampires. I just think there should be a national law that makes businesses responsible for what they do. Like the rest of us are.


Lemon laws are very hard to make stick. All other remedies have to be exhausted and the car would have to be repeatedly brought back and records kept. Then it takes a lawsuit and it's a big pain in the neck. Successful lemon law cases are few and far between. I do believe they can apply to used cars though, depending on your state law.

VideCorSpoon wrote:
As to the "as-is" warning. When you see an "as-is" sign, beware. "As-is" implies sufficient notice and fulfills their due diligence to tell you that something is amiss with that car. Many people don't think about that legal aspect when they put "as-is" on a used car, but it is a valid form of warning for the consumer.

Sure. The as-is is somewhat identifying the dealership from future claims.

VideCorSpoon wrote:
Now for your daughters situation. She bought a jeep from a used car salesman. Legally speaking, it was up to her at that time before she bought the car and signed the contract to get the car checked by a third party mechanic. Like when you buy a house, it's always good to get it inspected before you buy it outright. So in this respect, she may be stuck with the balance of the car. However, there are loopholes and alternative actions you can take.

Again, insurance would play a role in this.

Elmud - My question is when did she buy the car and when did it burn up? How much time passed?

VideCorSpoon wrote:


LOL, - That's one way. Another would be to open a website for your complaint and to allow others who have been burned by the dealership to complain. Eventually you'd have a website that would rank higher than their own in the search engines. Then you can force them to purchase the website for the cost of the car in addition to the cost involved in the website. People don't realize the power of a website in situations like this. I've actually done it once and it was very successful in fulfilling the goal.
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 05:37 pm
@Elmud,
Elmud wrote:
A poor analogy. Used car sales advertise quality,and on the average, produce little. So, it is false advertising. It is deceptive, and it is wrong. And, they especially take advantage of women, who are more apt to trust men because for some odd reason, women still have this idea that men are suppose to help them. Yeah. A very poor analogy indeed. Thanks.

You are indeed welcome
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 05:46 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead wrote:
You are indeed welcome

.lol. I didn't think you would want to take the apologetic route for charletans very far.
0 Replies
 
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 05:57 pm
@Justin,
Justin wrote:


Elmud - My question is when did she buy the car and when did it burn up? How much time passed ?.
Oh, I can't remember Justin. I think it burned up fairly soon after she bought it. Another case was when I bought a Tempo for someone awhile back. Come to find out later while checking the brakes, that there were no back brakes at all on the passenger side rear.

I think i am becoming a socialist Justin. I grow weary and hateful toward individual and business irresponsibility. What gripes me the most though, is how far some will go in the defense of scumbags under the guise of "free enterprise" and capitalism. We need some sort of protection for the consumer like the registrar of contractors . Anything that will keep the warts in check.
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 07:13 am
@Elmud,
Elmud wrote:
I think i am becoming a socialist Justin. I grow weary and hateful toward individual and business irresponsibility. What gripes me the most though, is how far some will go in the defense of scumbags under the guise of "free enterprise" and capitalism. We need some sort of protection for the consumer like the registrar of contractors . Anything that will keep the warts in check.


I cannot understand for the life of me why you could not protect yourself in this situation. I can't even see what you are being protected from!

Did you have to buy a car?

Did you have to buy this car?

Did you have to buy a car from this man?

You say you grow hateful towards individual irresponsibility while completely ignoring your own irresponsibility.

It is one thing to become a socialist because you see a system where certain groups are marginalized and downtrodden and you think someone with guns should step in and help them. That I can tolerate.

It is entirely different to become a socialist because you are a poor consumer, and you think someone with guns should step in and make sure you don't have to do the extra leg work that goes in to being responsible.

Did you have a mechanic look over the car? Did you inquire about any warranties? Did you ask the dealership what inspection process the car went through? Did you do any research into this car dealership before you purchased?

Face it, if a lemon law had been in place, the car would have cost $500 - $1000 more to cover the costs of inspection and minor repairs, all cars would have this extra cost. The dealership will not maintain the same prices, and will not cut their customers deals: that dealer will just pass the cost of the lemon law onto you.

The truly horrible thing about this is that not only will this crappy dealership pass the costs on to you, but all dealerships will pass this cost on to all car shoppers. Good dealerships who may have established themselves as trustworthy businesses will no longer be able to offer cars at the same low prices cause they can no longer account for good will. There is no longer a difference between honorable business and dishonorable. Smart shoppers who would have done their research, obtained warranties, and generally been safe could no longer see the fruits of their labor.

I understand that you were unlucky and that this dealer is, in all likelihood, a crook. But this is what regulation does. It doesn't just effect the unlucky, the irresponsible, or the crooks. It effects everyone, and it brings them down to the lowest common denominator.

Has no one else noticed this trend: The more regulation that the government "helps" us with, the more we see our lives dependent and determined by irresponsible consumers and crooked businesses!
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 07:20 am
@Elmud,
I already thanked VideCorSpoon with the button, but I felt I should post a thanks.

Moralistic rants like the one above are far less informative and helpful than concrete advice like he provided earlier in this thread.

Cheers.
0 Replies
 
VideCorSpoon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 08:43 am
@Elmud,
Just like to reiterate the whole "protest the dealership" thing.

This is an article from the consumerist which details how people who experienced transmission troubles in civic Si's protested the dealership and in the process got the dealership and Honda to fix it.

This is the link:
Followups: Protesting Honda Civic SI Get Transmission TSB

There was another article on the same website that was almost identical to your (elmud's) situation. I can't for the life of me find it, but I will keep looking and post it when I find it. The guy just stood outside the dealership every Saturday for a few hours and in the process hurt the reputation and sales of the dealership, who then ended up fixing the problem.

But like justin said too, doing a website helps out more than you would think when the dealership becomes aware of it.

Also, the consumerist came up with a very interesting way of getting the attention of the dealership and the corporate entity who has a stake in it. Its called a EECB (Executive E-Mail Carpet Bomb). You can imagine what the process entails. Its basically sending a complaint letter to top level executives and seeing what happens

This is a link on how to do an EECB.
Complaint Letters: How To Launch An Executive Email Carpet Bomb

If you look through the consumerist articles, they have the information to do it like the e-mails of the executives and stuff like that. But I have read the past instances in which readers have done this, and it has worked out really well for them.

The main reason I bring this up is to show that there are venues for recourse even when you think you may not have any rights or any proper channels to vent your frustrations. Give at least the EECB a go. Whats the worst that could happen? No body responding? Whats the best thing that could happen? Exactly! It's your right as an american citizen to be heard and to petition your grievances per the rights given to you by the constitution.
0 Replies
 
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 02:56 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
I cannot understand for the life of me why you could not protect yourself in this situation. I can't even see what you are being protected from!

Did you have to buy a car?

Did you have to buy this car?

Did you have to buy a car from this man?

You say you grow hateful towards individual irresponsibility while completely ignoring your own irresponsibility.

It is one thing to become a socialist because you see a system where certain groups are marginalized and downtrodden and you think someone with guns should step in and help them. That I can tolerate.

It is entirely different to become a socialist because you are a poor consumer, and you think someone with guns should step in and make sure you don't have to do the extra leg work that goes in to being responsible.

Did you have a mechanic look over the car? Did you inquire about any warranties? Did you ask the dealership what inspection process the car went through? Did you do any research into this car dealership before you purchased?

Face it, if a lemon law had been in place, the car would have cost $500 - $1000 more to cover the costs of inspection and minor repairs, all cars would have this extra cost. The dealership will not maintain the same prices, and will not cut their customers deals: that dealer will just pass the cost of the lemon law onto you.

The truly horrible thing about this is that not only will this crappy dealership pass the costs on to you, but all dealerships will pass this cost on to all car shoppers. Good dealerships who may have established themselves as trustworthy businesses will no longer be able to offer cars at the same low prices cause they can no longer account for good will. There is no longer a difference between honorable business and dishonorable. Smart shoppers who would have done their research, obtained warranties, and generally been safe could no longer see the fruits of their labor.

I understand that you were unlucky and that this dealer is, in all likelihood, a crook. But this is what regulation does. It doesn't just effect the unlucky, the irresponsible, or the crooks. It effects everyone, and it brings them down to the lowest common denominator.

Has no one else noticed this trend: The more regulation that the government "helps" us with, the more we see our lives dependent and determined by irresponsible consumers and crooked businesses!

I hear what you are saying, and I can respect it partially. I wished I had been there when my daughter bought the vehicle. It would have been checked out a little better. But, I wasn't. So she was wide open to be taken advantage of. Yes. It is a moral issue. and we probably cannot legislate morality. But still, I think we should expose these "crooks" for what they are. And yes, like the registrar of contractors, there should be some sort of quality control in regard to these types of business. Hey, i've been at car auctions where these flys buy used worn out vehicles for little of nothing and clean them up and sell them for ten times what they payed for them. And they sell them to people who, for whatever reason, cannot afford to buy a new vehicle.

A ford tempo with no back brakes. Let me ask you this. What kept the brake fluid from pooring out? What must have been done to the wheel cylinder? Think about that. Selling a death trap.

Yeah. you bet. Bring on the socialism. People in the Scandinavian countries seem to be okay with it. Sounds pretty good to me. and others.
Justin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 03:17 pm
@Elmud,
Elmud wrote:
And yes, like the registrar of contractors, there should be some sort of quality control in regard to these types of business.

Someone has to invent one and then put that invention in motion. Angie's List was a similar thing.

Elmud wrote:
Hey, i've been at car auctions where these flys buy used worn out vehicles for little of nothing and clean them up and sell them for ten times what they payed for them. And they sell them to people who, for whatever reason, cannot afford to buy a new vehicle.

Free enterprise. People do it with everything not just cars.. cars are just another vehicle. LOL. I see people where I live do it with houses and business and everything. It's a buy low sell high world we live in.

Elmud wrote:
A ford tempo with no back brakes. Let me ask you this. What kept the brake fluid from pooring out? What must have been done to the wheel cylinder? Think about that. Selling a death trap.

I doubt anything was done to the wheel cylinder because it would have been just as easy to replace the brakes. You may be surprised just how may cars are on the road today without back brakes because they aren't used all that much anyway. I'm sure people don't mean to sell death traps, they are just turning over numbers for profit. It's the buyers responsibility to have the car checked out because dealers simply go to auctions and buy cars that were not sold on another dealer's lot. Typically if a car sits two weeks then it's shuffled in the auction and another dealer buys it to resell. That's the business.

We can be angry with the car dealership or we can do something about it to prevent it again. Money is God in this world we live in and if that's not obvious I'm not sure what is. If money is God then what will people do to have more God?... Anything, just look around. So we have to adjust until the day comes that we realize money is not god.

What about the insurance? I don't believe that was answered. Did the insurance company pay the balance of the car off? It may be best to chalk it up as a learning experience because there is a lot more to come. It sucks that we have shady businesses in the world but we do.

Something to think about... Is that used car salesman any more guilty than the ceo of non profit businesses that has a salary above 3 million in a non profit where 5% of all the income actually goes to the cause? Same thing, different vehicle. They are all over the world my friend.
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 07:13 pm
@Justin,
Justin wrote:


Something to think about... Is that used car salesman any more guilty than the ceo of non profit businesses that has a salary above 3 million in a non profit where 5% of all the income actually goes to the cause? Same thing, different vehicle. They are all over the world my friend.



Yes. They are all over the world. But, if we just resign ourselves to this fact and say nothing but, well, thats just the way it is, then it will be accepted as the rule. Need to have that moral rant every now and then Justin. Gotta have some sense of balance and plus, something that others can disagree with.
0 Replies
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 06:50 am
@Elmud,
Elmud wrote:
I hear what you are saying, and I can respect it partially. I wished I had been there when my daughter bought the vehicle. It would have been checked out a little better. But, I wasn't. So she was wide open to be taken advantage of. Yes. It is a moral issue. and we probably cannot legislate morality. But still, I think we should expose these "crooks" for what they are. And yes, like the registrar of contractors, there should be some sort of quality control in regard to these types of business. Hey, i've been at car auctions where these flys buy used worn out vehicles for little of nothing and clean them up and sell them for ten times what they payed for them. And they sell them to people who, for whatever reason, cannot afford to buy a new vehicle.


There are simply things we cannot be sure of in this situation either. We do not know if the dealership knew of the condition, we cannot even be sure if the condition existed when the vehicle was sold. In all likelihood they at least didn't care if they sold a car with this problem.

I support everything you wish to do to rectify this situation except bringing the state into it. VIdCoreSpoon has listed off some actions that seem effective in handling this situation on a somewhat private individual level, in fact, probably more effective than state legislation.

Consider this:

In private manners, using communication such as the internet, you and the dealership are on even terms, at least. You can get out the word about that dealership on consumer websites, protesting, print, and other methods. For every person that walks on to that dealership and gets screwed, you may turn away five from that business.

But think about what happens if this becomes a state legal deal. Who is going to be more knowledgeable about the law in these concerns? Who is going to have a legal team on retainer to deal with this?

When law is made like this, it carries with it the notion that what the law decides is what is right. Yet the law is most often decided by who has the most legal resources. It creates a situation where what is generally considered right is not determined in anyway related to moral justification.
0 Replies
 
Bones-O
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Mar, 2009 01:18 pm
@Elmud,
Surely there are some safety checks involved before a second hand car can be sold to a member of the public? I can't believe buyers are in the position of buying a car without being given some level of guarantee that the car is salable, indeed drivable. Aren't there basic health and safety regulations in the US?
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Mar, 2009 02:10 pm
@Bones-O,
Maybe it's just me as the odd duck, but I'm not sure this is worth the heartache of a spirited debate. If something doesn't come with a guarantee and sports an "AS IS" sign, I either (1) need to go somewhere else -or- (2) have someone certify/check it out.

Right, wrong or indifferent; this is an element of being an intelligent, responsible buyer.
0 Replies
 
Kage phil
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Mar, 2009 02:25 pm
@Elmud,
Honestly, It would've been smart to have a mechanic or a friend with basic knowledge of a vehicle take a look at the insides before fully purchasing it. We all make mistakes and luckily this one didn't cost her her life. Selling a problematic vehicle is a moral item in my honest opinion and I doubt the State would get involved unless there is proof the salesman purposely did it. Though if there was, it most likely went up in flames..
0 Replies
 
 

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