God. Personal or impersonal ?

@hue-man,

hue-man wrote:

The why is a void. It is an unanswered question and it is lazy to fill any gaps in knowledge with a three letter word and a conception that is evidently human. It insults and frightens the human psyche when it realizes that it doesn't know it all.

Very well said but i can also come to understand the rational thinking of creating a "god" to explain human kind's meaning and existance. Like i've mentioned in my previous posts, mainly, religion is to most people their "whys" that they need for explanation and this satisfies their average life. But as to what you said, i do think that we don't know the answer to our creation and i do think that god was a greatly devised yet illogical reason for our creation, it satisfied most people even though there still is that void to those who can see past the needing of a false reason for existance.

What i heard from my biology teacher was that there is evidence for the actual creation of life, no evidence too concrete at least but a lot of logical ideas that not only seem to fit but are quite rational. Basically life was completely random and sparatic, and of course your thinking, oh well if it was a random occurance that's a 1 out of an inumerable number of chance to happen. The thing is there was an adequte amount of time for various peices to randomly fit together until we finally came accross a lifeform which then was able to reproduce and therefor went on. Don't quote me on this but it went something like atom-molecule-protein-ect. The chances and probablity of this was very slim and therefore there were a ton of failed attempts and attempts that never were. And lastly to add, the temperature at pre-life time was perfect for the combination of various items to form and create other items which eventually led to life.
I'll have to look more into that.

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@hue-man,

hue-man wrote:

Wrong, wrong, wrong! You do not know that God exists. Knowledge is justified true belief, and its justification stems from itss ability to be empirical verified or logically verified, though logic is more limited when it comes to obtaining knowledge. Intuition is not proper justification for knowledge. People have intuitions or perspectives on a number of things, and they are usually dead wrong when they rely on intuition alone. Mysticism mistakes feeling for knowing. You believe in some conception of God, obscure as it may be, because you feel like there should be a God, not because you've observed the existence of a supernatural being.
Parsimony means the more simplistic, practical, verifiable explanation for a phenomenon. Scientists are able to do things with organic matter and inorganic matter than nature can never do, so making a leaf may not be such a big deal. All life is made of carbohydrates, lipids, and fatty acids, and these substances can be used to bioengineer an organism. I don't want to seem belittling or condescending, but it is excessively silly to consider the existence of a leaf to be supernatural. Please define supernatural?
I did not come to my conclusions based on popular beliefs or opinions, nor was I raised with these conclusions, nor were any of my peers adherents to these conclusions. I came to these conclusions through introspection and study. I know enough about human psychology to know about the emotional need for transcendence. I also know enough about human psychology to know that we have the tendency to see intentional patterns in unintentional patterns. It's called fundamental attribution error in psychology. God is a way for us to apply purpose to a purposeless universe that doesn't have us in mind.

Take it easy Hueman, don't bust a blood vessel. In all due respect, it is not I that question's the existence of a universal intelligence, it is you. Please don't misquote me. I said nothing about a 'supernatural being". I never said anything about intuition. Mysticism is a cell phone in Plato's hand. It is not a conception. See what I mean as you effort to communicate with me using the knowledge "you" have and what you have experienced. You have no clue as to the knowledge I have and the experiences I have had. As far as what "supernatural" means is anything that can not be explain by what we have define empirically, like a cell phone in Plato's hand.
William

1 Reply

@William,

William wrote:

Take it easy Hueman, don't bust a blood vessel. In all due respect, it is not I that question's the existence of a universal intelligence, it is you. Please don't misquote me. I said nothing about a 'supernatural being". I never said anything about intuition. Mysticism is a cell phone in Plato's hand. It is not a conception. See what I mean as you effort to communicate with me using the knowledge "you" have and what you have experienced. You have no clue as to the knowledge I have and the experiences I have had. As far as what "supernatural" means is anything that can not be explain by what we have define empirically, like a cell phone in Plato's hand.
William

There's no need to be patronizing towards me. I did not lose my cool or come off disrespectful. I presented my argument in a polite and tempered manner.

None of what you've written above directly counters my statements. "Mysticism is a cell phone in Plato's hand"? Excuse me, but what the hell does that even mean? Do you know what mysticism is? Can you define it as it is? You're right, I have no clue as to what you've experienced and what you know, so please enlighten me? I said that you haven't observed the existence of a supernatural being because God is conceived as a supernatural being or entity. You claim to have knowledge of the existence of God, so please verify the existence of God for me?

Supernatural is not anything we haven't defined empirically. What we haven't explained yet is called the unexplained. The unexplained is not synonymous with the supernatural or paranormal. The supernatural is a phenomenon that defies the laws of nature or physics, and not just by a appearance. It's a phenomenon that can be tested, and it yields results that defy the laws of physics and can't be explained in natural terms. Supernatural phenomena has never been observed, and gaps in scientific knowledge are not justifications for the belief in the supernatural. Gaps in knowledge are either temporary or permanent epistemic limitations, nothing more. Not having an explanation doesn't give you an explanation. That's a contradiction.

2 Replies

@hue-man,

hue-man wrote:

There's no need to be patronizing towards me. I did not lose my cool or come off disrespectful. I presented my argument in a polite and tempered manner.

None of what you've written above directly counters my statements. "Mysticism is a cell phone in Plato's hand"? Excuse me, but what the hell does that even mean? Do you know what mysticism is? Can you define it as it is? You're right, I have no clue as to what you've experienced and what you know, so please enlighten me? I said that you haven't observed the existence of a supernatural being because God is conceived as a supernatural being or entity. You claim to have knowledge of the existence of God, so please verify the existence of God for me?

Supernatural is not anything we haven't defined empirically. What we haven't explained yet is called the unexplained. The unexplained is not synonymous with the supernatural or paranormal. The supernatural is a phenomenon that defies the laws of nature or physics, and not just by a appearance. It's a phenomenon that can be tested, and it yields results that defy the laws of physics and can't be explained in natural terms. Supernatural phenomena has never been observed, and gaps in scientific knowledge are not justifications for the belief in the supernatural. Gaps in knowledge are either temporary or permanent epistemic limitations, nothing more. Not having an explanation doesn't give you an explanation. That's a contradiction.

Hue, it's plain to see we are not communicating. "Wrong, wrong, wrong" ending in a exclamation mark (!) denotes intensity, if I am not mistaken. I can think of many ways you could have expressed yourself that would not been so emphatic. It was as if my words were personally offending you. If I am wrong, please accept my apology. I have been down this road more times than I care to express. There are those who can relate to what I have to say and those who "will not" relate because, as it seems to me the word "God" throws them for a loop as they cling to what common religious understanding has defined God as. I never said this "universal intelligence" was a being or an entity. What "it" is, is beyond our "primitive" understanding. For reasons I will not get into now, there are those who are receptive and those who will not be receptive no matter what I say as long as it differs with what they think, believe or have experienced. It is a matter of ego my friend, and for you to hear me, you have to put that little critter to rest. I could list for you the many experiences of my life that could be construed as "miracles" and you would summarily dismiss each and every one of them using the same "to be empirical or not to be empirical" jargon that has become stale rhetoric for me and I care not to venture down that road again. I will just leave you with little scenario I put together that, IMO, illustrates what I like to call a "God consciousness" or God in motion which is an existence void of fear--the fodder the ego feeds on.

Imagine you awake, you swing your feet off the bed and they, without even noticing slip into you house shoes. As you are walking to the bath, you, without even noticing it, step over a roller skate one of you children left on the floor that you noticed the night before. You do not grope for the light switch in the bathroom, you find it perfectly. As you leave you do not turn off the light for as you open the door, you wife who doesn't even break stride, enters as you leave. Normally you would have turned off the light. Upon entering the kitchen you notice a note you put behind a magnet on the refrigerator door you put there a month ago reminding you of a close friends birthday tomorrow. You take the note and put it in your pocket. The note pad was a freebie you got at the hardware store with their name and number at the bottom they give their customers as an advertising speciality. As you are pulling out of the driveway, you don't notice a car coming down the street at a high rate of speed and just as you are about to back into it's path, your wife comes to the door and waves her hands. You hit the brakes and stick your head out of the window as she reminds you to pick up some milk on the way home. In the meantime the car goes speeding by.

On your way to work you find you are a little early and decide to stop and get some donuts for your co-workers. As you pull into the donut shop you notice the parking lot is full and you decide to leave. Just as you are heading for the exit a car pulls out leaving you a space. Great! You are inside waiting for your order and you notice an ad in the newspaper the person next to you is reading and it is a hardware store that is running special's on fishing equipment. As luck would have it, you pull out the note you got off of the refrigerator and it is the very same hardware store, located only a few blocks from where you live. Your friend loves to fish. You put the note away pick up your order and leave.

As you are entering the freeway of speeding traffic, just as you are at that point to where you are to merge with the oncoming cars a space opens up allowing you to enter. Traffic is congested but moving at a pretty good clip and all of a sudden the car in front of you puts on the brakes, and you reflexively veer to the left lane where there just happens to be an open space in the traffic to accommodate your sudden move. You maneuver it with the greatest of ease and continue on in that lane. You are driving and notice a truck with "out of state" tags. It is of no consequence, just the fact that it was noticed is all. You quickly dismiss it and continue on.

When you arrive at work, you go around your office and pass out the donuts and in casual conversation one of your co-workers whom you rarely communicate with, she expresses a problem her son is having in selecting a major that would best fulfill his needs as he wants to be a landscape architect. Immediately the license plate comes to mind. That state is where an acquaintance of yours lives that is a landscape architect. An acquaintance you met at a convention you went to last summer. You remember a photo that was taken of the both of you. You don't remember his name, but in the photo you were both wearing name tags. You call your wife to pull up the image on your computer to get the name. She does and you relate the information to your co-worker so her son can give this guy a call to see what advice he can give. The word "architect" reminded you of a crack you have in your driveway and prompted you reach for the note in your pocket and jot down a reminder when you visit the hardware store to get your friend his gift, what their advice would be concerning getting this crack fixed.

In the course of the day your co-worker informs you that she contacted your acquaintance and asked that you give him a call. You do and throughout the course of the conversation he tells you of a new product that will allow you to fix that crack in your driveway and you can do it yourself. Also he and his wife are going on an all expenses paid vacation and he has two extra tickets and asked if you and your wife would like to go. Not bad. You told him you would discuss it with "the wife".

On your way home you stop at the hardware store to pick up the fishing gear for your friend and find out that they just received a new shipment of that "new product" that will allow you to fix your driveway. As you pull out of the parking lot you notice a billboard that say's "GOT MILK". You have one more stop to make.
At any point in the course of that day, tragedy was knocking on the door waiting for admittance, yet it turned out unbelievably harmonic. That is "God Consciousness" That is peace of mind doing it's thing. Now here is the paradox. You can't look for it. It is life unfolding as a result of absolute faith with no fear present. It is a very possible depiction of what life is "supposed" to be about.
The mind is that link to that inexplicable intelligence that will effortlessly guide us into tomorrow as we each and every one link up to it. We can consciously set the groundwork that will allow each and everyone of Earth's inhabitants to achieve that "peace of mind". We can do that. What it will lead to is what dreams are made of. That is our reason for being. The mind is "God's" link to us. The only problem is there is too much static or noise that forces us to access the wrong information in our mind that we keep on tap to help us survive in this very "shaky world". That's what the ego is. The mind belongs to God, let him work it. Can we explain it? No. That's where faith, which is the lack of fear, comes in. It took me thirty years to understand this. Of course I had a lot of help. Please don't ask me to explain that. You wouldn't believe it even if I told you.
Now I know the above is just a scenario that most of which would not see any particular phenomenon with. What is unique about it is the the fluid motion. No stress or worry as the mind provides all that was needed without consciously "digging" into it. It just happened. This peace of mind is what I call "God Consciousness". It is God communicating with us, his "parts". It is "Divine Communication". Much like the way "animals" communicate. Animals don't worry about life like we do. They respond to that outside inertia that causes them distress, much as we do. If left alone the animal will be at total peace answering to it's "instinct" of which it has no choice. At any time in our life when we are faced with a choice, no matter how minute, it requires mental effort for fear of making the wrong choice for any one of a thousand reasons we can conjure up. We "want" to be right all the time and that is what really screws up our mind as we ponder that duality of "what is right" and "what is wrong" creating "stress". The animal has no such dilemma. Neither should we.
William

0 Replies

@hue-man,

God The Supreme intelligence

We humans want to have their spirit united with a supreme intelligence. This requires knowledge of a supreme wisdom relating to earth and knowledge of the human spirit. .

There is order and harmony that humans can perceive in the natural world that can be attributed to a divine source that orders and controls the entire universe intelligently and rationally.

These essential elements of finite things reveal a supreme intelligence but sometimes in a manner that can not be comprehended by a human in its fully, there are still mysteries out there.

This supreme intelligence or God is conceived of as having constructed the universe in such a way that humans have in their possession all that is necessary to live a good and moral life.

The capacity for a human to understand, accept and embrace good or evil in the nature of perfect unity, invisible and incorporeal, transcending all things material.

The question that really 'matters' is whether humans do have a basis, sufficient in reason (whether speculative or practical) for attributing a final purpose to the supreme cause acting in terms of purposes.

Since a supreme intelligence God supposedly creates all things with its own purpose, a human cannot perceive anything without seeing a supreme intelligence in those things.

Are we humans just a system of floating ideas, without any higher purpose?
What are humans real objective concept of good and evil, to me the Ten Commandments are as good a start as any

Consciousness is the reality of the human universe. Therefore humans are causalities of their conscious beliefs and fears.

Whatever a human believes they become and what ever a human fears they manifest.

According to the human principle of sufficient reason, there must be as much reality (formally or eminently) in the cause of any idea as (objectively) in the idea itself.

We humans have a concept of an infinite perfection originated from a supreme intelligence with infinite formal perfection or even infinite evil.

The origin of this idea could only be the real existence of a supreme universal intelligence. "One could even expand on this logic and conclude that the mind of each human is literally a fragment of a supreme universal intelligence" (William your concept?).

Humans have an idea of what and which has infinite perfection. There must be a first mover, unmoved. A first cause in the chain of causes, I use the word God.

An absolutely necessary primordial intelligence pervading and upholding all existence.

An absolute perfect wisdom.

A rational designer.(I was shot down in flames for suggesting this possibility)

Humans want immortality and therefore examine how to share immortality with a supreme intelligence or God.

To those who believe in a supreme intelligence, no proof is necessary. To those who do not believe, no proof is possible.

Below are a little few words my idea of the "God of my understanding"

Aware of infinite potential in vast unploughed fields of nothing, I strode with great beams of cosmic light toward the infinite horizon of eternity, sowing seeds of existence before the timeless moments before creation.

I am the boundless Mind, Original Self-Awareness the cause of everything, relative to nothing I am "This".

On the panorama of bleak blackness, I AM "The Absolute", I came sowing universal energy.

Reality was my aim and the beauty of my achievement. Illuminating the darkness with beams of dazzling radiant glory was the first event of reason. I formulated in my mind the first numbers and called them "Zero" and "One",

With the simplicities and realities of the fundamentals of' "one, and 'zero", "I made everything". I am the Prime Mover and there was no proponent to my "First Cause". I am the "Immovable Rock" and the" Alpha point".

I took these first numbers and weaved them into the fabric of the reality, creating all the limitless universes on the infinite timeless foam of nothing, which now makes all up existence. Indeed, I am the Almighty One.

I am the creator of the totality of all existence known by many names and titles but you must all refer to be by the title that can never be confused by anyone. Call me The "Almighty One.

I AM the Ceaseless Creator of all things

I am the encompasser and enfold all things within the substance of my being. Resonating with profound unfathomable vibrations, creation trembles at the passing of my presence.

I am the stalker of the soul, the defeater of death. I am supreme and take the abstract, and convert it into concrete matter.

I dwell in the breath of my life, which is composite bright light, looking with delight upon the beauty of the garden of my creation, sparkling out of the darkness of infinite universes.

I am well pleased with my endeavors and set the clock of time to run for eternity.

I am the winder of the watch of creation and eternity

I set it to run forever

I AM

LIGHT

THE GREAT ESSENCE

LIFE

ALL THAT

"IS"

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@Elmud,

"We "want" to be right all the time and that is what really screws up our mind as we ponder that duality of "what is right" and "what is wrong" creating "stress". The animal has no such dilemma. Neither should we. "
William

i love this statement, william. it reminds me of the nike ad-'just DO it'. i definitely agree and there are times in my life i can see all this happening, but they dont last long enough.

---------- Post added at 06:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:56 AM ----------

alan,
just wondering...when you mention the one and zero, are you making an allegory to represent the binary language? and is this another way of stating the original emergence of the concept of duality?

'I am the boundless Mind, Original Self-Awareness the cause of everything, relative to nothing I am "This".

On the panorama of bleak blackness, I AM "The Absolute", I came sowing universal energy. '

i guess what tends to make me feel a little out of synch with your essay is that along with these profoundly beautiful thoughts, this absolute awareness expresses human characteristics and concepts, such as ' I am well pleased with my endeavors' and 'looking with delight upon the beauty of the garden of my creation'

if this entity or being can be well pleased and delighted, cant he also have moments of anger, forgetfulness, jealousy, revenge, and all the other things that are attributed to the 'God' of the scriptures? you never intended to go there...right?

i am not sure about these things, but i think that pure awareness might be above experiencing emotions which are the product of duality. i think they can only be experienced by proxy through the manifestations which have been 'programmed' with your one/zero.

the other thing i notice, which relates to william's mention of ego, is that whenever i hear this creator sounding off like an egotistical jerk, i have to ask myself is that my own ego responding to some imagined challenge, or is something amiss in the theory?
i am no longer referring only to your post, alan, but to the majority of the concepts of a creator that have been proposed endlessly through the ages. maybe it's me...i am still working on this ego stuff and it is very tricky business.

i mean is this creator the supreme ego, because i thought the ego was a function of the human mind. in my estimation, a supreme or only being of which we are all a part couldnt be 'happy' if he had intention to create something and it turned out well any more than he could be 'angry' if his beings didnt react the way he had hoped they would. or is my ego getting in my way of comprehending? and again, would that being really distinguish between 'beauty' and 'ugliness' which are relative terms based on human perception?

however, i can see the absolute awareness described as 'nurturing', though it is also using human terms to describe something that would only be a natural impartial activity to ensure self-preservation.

2 Replies

@salima,

salima wrote:

"We "want" to be right all the time and that is what really screws up our mind as we ponder that duality of "what is right" and "what is wrong" creating "stress". The animal has no such dilemma. Neither should we. "
William

i love this statement, william. it reminds me of the nike ad-'just DO it'. i definitely agree and there are times in my life i can see all this happening, but they dont last long enough.

Thank you. You and I are definitely on the same wavelength. Yes, it is hard to maintain but I can assure you it will get better as you go along. I have no advice for you as your mind, unencumbered, will guide your path.

Kindest regards,
William

0 Replies

@salima,

salima wrote:

"We "want" to be right all the time and that is what really screws up our mind as we ponder that duality of "what is right" and "what is wrong" creating "stress". The animal has no such dilemma. Neither should we. "
William

i love this statement, william. it reminds me of the nike ad-'just DO it'. i definitely agree and there are times in my life i can see all this happening, but they dont last long enough.

---------- Post added at 06:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:56 AM ----------

alan,
just wondering...when you mention the one and zero, are you making an allegory to represent the binary language? and is this another way of stating the original emergence of the concept of duality?

'I am the boundless Mind, Original Self-Awareness the cause of everything, relative to nothing I am "This".

On the panorama of bleak blackness, I AM "The Absolute", I came sowing universal energy. '

i guess what tends to make me feel a little out of synch with your essay is that along with these profoundly beautiful thoughts, this absolute awareness expresses human characteristics and concepts, such as ' I am well pleased with my endeavors' and 'looking with delight upon the beauty of the garden of my creation'

if this entity or being can be well pleased and delighted, cant he also have moments of anger, forgetfulness, jealousy, revenge, and all the other things that are attributed to the 'God' of the scriptures? you never intended to go there...right?

i am not sure about these things, but i think that pure awareness might be above experiencing emotions which are the product of duality. i think they can only be experienced by proxy through the manifestations which have been 'programmed' with your one/zero.

the other thing i notice, which relates to william's mention of ego, is that whenever i hear this creator sounding off like an egotistical jerk, i have to ask myself is that my own ego responding to some imagined challenge, or is something amiss in the theory?
i am no longer referring only to your post, alan, but to the majority of the concepts of a creator that have been proposed endlessly through the ages. maybe it's me...i am still working on this ego stuff and it is very tricky business.

i mean is this creator the supreme ego, because i thought the ego was a function of the human mind. in my estimation, a supreme or only being of which we are all a part couldnt be 'happy' if he had intention to create something and it turned out well any more than he could be 'angry' if his beings didnt react the way he had hoped they would. or is my ego getting in my way of comprehending? and again, would that being really distinguish between 'beauty' and 'ugliness' which are relative terms based on human perception?

however, i can see the absolute awareness described as 'nurturing', though it is also using human terms to describe something that would only be a natural impartial activity to ensure self-preservation.

Yes the being is an egotist , but he still has to create the word jerk and give it meaning

If anything had a right to be egotistical it is this entity. In my little essay I tried to convey a godlike being creating its own reality and all the difficulties it had to endure to make it beautiful

If you worked on an oil painting, for many years , making mistakes, starting again on the same canvas and finally produced a painting a creation of great beauty then you would be well pleased like my entity ?

Instead of a painting my Being created the universe

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

If there is no time, there can be no movement. Time is just a distance between two points or a reference point of memory. You can't do anything if there is no time for doing. Time distinguishes one moment of "not doing" with one of "doing" therefore a realm without time does not happen or have a happening.

For a heaven to exist as just a singular moment without time would not be a heaven in my opinion. It would be a cage of the pause button. One moment implies that you wouldn't ever have a change of moments because to change it would imply a time signature. I don't buy it, sorry...

It is so subjective of a concept to, I don't even think all theists have the same opinion about heaven or hell. Therefore you can imply that heaven and hell are just something we imagine to exist. In other words people don't fight over what bread is because we have an understanding of what bread is. Some will call it nutritious and others will not but they will never argue it isn't bread. The same can't be said about heaven or hell. Because I can turn heaven into hell with just a few words...

In the known universe yes, but if you're speaking of something beyond this universe or dimension, then no rules really apply, or no rules that we may be aware of.

Most major religions believe that the universe isn't the home to a "God" rather a construct of it.

Subjectively, the traditional idea of heaven and hell seem absurd to me also, but the idea of something beyond the material, I'm not so sure about.

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

Yes, this is the fundamental flaw I refer to but unlike Darwin I am not hung up on it. He was a christian and still thought a god hand his hands in the workings of nature. I however do not think any being plays any roles as a caretaker in nature. If there was such a being then odd stuff would happen that we simply could not explain but this never happens.

The funny thing about all this is, you have no more of an idea about god than I do. The only difference between us is that you believe and I don't. We have absolutely nothing else to go on than a hunch, a guess, a hypothesis, a theory. You are no closer to the truth than I although you might claim you are because you have faith or something but lets be honest here you know damn well you have nothing else to go on than that.

So I beg the question, had you never been subjected to the bible or a church goer would you ever consider god as existing? Can you honestly answer it? Before you do take into consideration this possible scenario;

Imagine you were born, blind and deaf, you also couldn't taste or feel anything as well as smell. All you had were your thoughts. Let's assume that a doctor is keeping your body alive but you have absolutely no knowledge of that doctor. What would your world consist of? You would never learn a language, you would never learn about a car, a house, a job, the idea of a mother or father wouldn't occur to you. In fact you would not even consider yourself as a thing because to do so you must have something that does not consist of you to say, "this is me, that is not me." If you can't sense anything else then you have no way to determine anything. The last little bit of this is the kicker, you wouldn't even have the concept of god because god is something taught to you, it is not inherent.

Your example is basically an existing thing that lacks intelligence. I don't think it's a good enough analogy to make use of an infrarational existent that doesn't know anything and compare it to a rational being that knows itself as an existing thing, furthermore, the idea of God is not necessarily taught.From history we know that even pagans who never had any revelation from God or whatsoever believed in the existence of God from simple observation that the world cannot be the cause of its own existence. They didn't even have to go into a deep introspection to conclude what they believed. I'm not saying that they proved they proved their point, but the existence of God doesn't necessarily come by teaching it.

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@William,

William wrote:

IMO, in all due respect our attempt to define God and place labels such a personal and impersonal are nothing more that exercises in mental masturbation as we effort to establish a relationship with that God. That automatically creates a "separation" from us with Him or it or whatever God is. When in truth, IMO, we are a part of that God; a human extension of it. When I think of a God that is proscribed by some religions to be some supernatural entity who created man for his own amusement, it makes me literally ill. What kind of an omnipotent, all knowing, all loving entity would do such a thing? Of course we have an answer for that in that we gave Him "human frailties" such as wrath, jealously and vengeance. What a crock. That doesn't fit with omnipotence in any way whatsoever. Or any kind of "omni" for that matter in that those frailties come from weakness and ignorance. If that is what you perceive God to be, then no wonder you are so damn confused.

I have gone beyond faith to the point of knowing I am a divine creation and a part of that God. I am a little piece of him. As are you. I know that for a fact. It is not a belief for me. Now explaining that and getting through the misconceptions out there makes me want to literally pull what little hair I have left out. Ha. Considering this reality, I know it is hard for many to fathom exactly what this 'oneness' is. Once you have witnessed it and experienced it, it will, as it did with me, literally blow you away. Now there are a lot of reasons for that; too many to cover in this post.
Rest assured it is not God who is confusing, we are. Let's face it for whatever reason we all dwell at the same address and are essentially a family. The problem is we don't communicate very well with each other. We are so used to surviving the chaos, we have no idea of the joy that life has to offer. Because we don't honestly communicate we become afraid of each other and build barriers that protect us. Not good in any family situation.

What ever you deem that is personal about you, should in no way conflict with that of which I feel is personal about me. That's how we learn. Now if your personal concepts cause me harm in any respect, then we must effort to remedy that. Only honesty communication will accomplish that void of selfish motivations on either side. Divinely, we can do this. But the ego has to go.

All we have to do is observe nature. It has no choice in the matter. It just is and flourishes in it's harmony. We are a part of that nature. We are, or should be compatible with it. It's all about harmony, compatibility and communication. That is nature. That is God. So it is safe to understand God is Harmony. Chaos doesn't fit in anywhere.

Once we finally understand this, then we will witness God in motion as we divinely begin to communicate and we will solve all the problems that plague us. All, all, all, all of them. And that we can definitely blame on God. Ha. In my most humble opinion. :a-ok:
William

Hello dear William,

Respectfully one can feel a separation from God I have felt this and it is a desolation of unspeakable proportions. Do you perceive God as a separate primordial mind?

It was more like being mentally separated from family, loved ones for a while a sense of profound loneliness that all mystics like me experience from time to time

If we are part and parcel of God or little peace of him as you stated, then God must have some human attributes, don't you think?

God never created anything for his own amusement, he created only what what his omniscience knew was necessarily, in his creation

I agree it is we humans who are confused when it comes to God, God has absolutely no problem knowing exactly who and what we are

God is the "Omniscient Mind that pervades and sustains all existence

A being a"Consolidated Mind" can never be an entity of pure love as some suppose

Thus creation is a duality!!

God is that which is that God

"IS"

How have you gone from belief to knowing William?, that statement interests me greatly, I do not doubt what you say that is a friendly question

Now I can relate some events that happened to me during a near death experience.

I seemed at one stage to have merged with the "GODMIND" that pervades and upholds all existence

Then I knew Everything, all question where answered, I felt Omnipotent, so much so that if I wanted to I could effect the universe or even destroy it

It was strange, like a pilot handing over the controls of a huge airplane to me, but with all the knowledge ingrained to navigate it

Blasphemy some might say, you are/were God, remember Jesus said, don't you know you are GODS?

Time flowed at infinite speed back and forward,a moment became an eternity an eternity a moment

So I am tempted to believe what you believe, we are really God and must just realize the truth thereof.

Peace, light, and Joy

Alan

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall wrote:

Hello dear William,

Respectfully one can feel a separation from God I have felt this and it is a desolation of unspeakable proportions. Do you perceive God as a separate primordial mind?

It was more like being mentally separated from family, loved ones for a while a sense of profound loneliness that all mystics like me experience from time to time

If we are part and parcel of God or little peace of him as you stated, then God must have some human attributes, don't you think?

God never created anything for his own amusement, he created only what what his omniscience knew was necessarily, in his creation

I agree it is we humans who are confused when it comes to God, God has absolutely no problem knowing exactly who and what we are

God is the "Omniscient Mind that pervades and sustains all existence

A being a"Consolidated Mind" can never be an entity of pure love as some suppose

Thus creation is a duality!!

God is that which is that God

"IS"

How have you gone from belief to knowing William?, that statement interests me greatly, I do not doubt what you say that is a friendly question

Now I can relate some events that happened to me during a near death experience.

I seemed at one stage to have merged with the "GODMIND" that pervades and upholds all existence

Then I knew Everything, all question where answered, I felt Omnipotent, so much so that if I wanted to I could effect the universe or even destroy it

It was strange, like a pilot handing over the controls of a huge airplane to me, but with all the knowledge ingrained to navigate it

Blasphemy some might say, you are/were God, remember Jesus said, don't you know you are GODS?

Time flowed at infinite speed back and forward,a moment became an eternity an eternity a moment

So I am tempted to believe what you believe, we are really God and must just realize the truth thereof.

Peace, light, and Joy

Alan

Thank you so very much. Your questions are so very important and insightfully asked, please allow me a little time to address them.
Peace, light and joy to you my friend.
And as always, my God be with you, and as always, that is not a prayer, but the way life is meant to be.
Later, give me a little of time.
William

0 Replies

@Elmud,

Quote:

From history we know that even pagans who never had any revelation from God or whatsoever believed in the existence of God from simple observation that the world cannot be the cause of its own existence. They didn't even have to go into a deep introspection to conclude what they believed. I'm not saying that they proved they proved their point, but the existence of God doesn't necessarily come by teaching it.

What I am saying is that when you have the concept of "I" immediately you get the concept of "NOT I". Then generally what follows is a whole procession of questions, what created this I, where does this I originate, how does this I come into being. That is where god is created from. If there is no concept of "I" the concept of god will never arise.

2 Replies

@Elmud,

In answer to Alan:

Hello dear William,

Respectfully one can feel a separation from God I have felt this and it is a desolation of unspeakable proportions. Do you perceive God as a separate primordial mind?

No, because I cannot define "time" and have no Earthly idea of what the beginning is, if there is one. At least one that we can conceive anyway. We are dealing with a structure here that is so far beyond our understanding our language cannot define it. We pattern everything we know by our what we have experience through our senses. One of the most stifling puzzles ever to strain our brain is "if God created the Universe, who created God." Hell, we barely got to the moon and back and all of a sudden, we know where the universe came from. Yeah, right. So a long time ago I started questioning that and one thing led to the other and one day I realize God and the universe are in effect one and the same. My entire thinking process began to change as tears actually flooded my cheeks as if an awakening had taken place of the like that cannot be explained. It was like a cleansing and in effect a rebirth. It was as if I the universe had a chill bump and I was it. Ha ha. That was thirty years ago and a lot has transpired since then as I was able to dismiss the untruth and focus on that which was left over.

Getting through what we have understood as that which is our perception of truth that is that which can only be empirically witnessed and understood through those experiences, is not easy, I assure you. Considering our current reality and the condition of it, (see list), I began questioning everything. What you are reading in my post is the results of thirty years of "debriefing".

We are a part of that universe, which means we are a part of that God, or that mind "it" has that drives it. Just a new, immature and growing as it grows part of it. Just a very small piece of that mind. We can't deal with all "it" knows and "it" knows we can't deal with all it knows for one very good reason. All it knows is in the "past" and all that the universe has gone through in it's evolvement is entirely more than we can possibly comprehend. You see the universe is a continuum that moves only in one direction, towards the future. It no more know's what the future holds than we do and we are a part of that forward momentum.

The more we delve into the past the more we put the skids on our progress and the harmony of which life will be when we begin to get in tune in with "it" or "God".

We are not "separate", just detached like what happens to an electrical device when it is "un plugged" from a power source. All that we contribute to evil is just growing pains we have experienced from being unplugged and what unplugged us it the overwhelming sensation of life itself and our fear of losing it. The fear of the great unknown that lies beyond what we call "death". That blows us away. That's when our imagination began to get the best of us. I am of the opinion the black hole of science is akin to that black hole of the grave. It is a place for useless debris. What happens to that debris is.....................? And that scares us to death. The reason for my signature at the bottom of my posts.

"It was more like being mentally separated from family, loved ones for a while a sense of profound loneliness that all mystics like me experience from time to time"

The universe or God works in mysterious ways, as we say, and all I can say to that as long as the are mysterious, keep away from it. Those mysteries will be solved when the time comes for us to know it. Not a second before or a second after. Your not a mystic, you are just trying to equate our knowledge with that of the universe which is the reason why you experience the mania you do. If feels good, the problem is you are trying to figure out why? I know, been there, done that. I thought at one time, I could walk on water until I realize it wasn't that I could walk on water, I just knew where all the stumps were. Ha. Please allow me a little levity. That was not meant to disparage what you have learned to believe. Please.

"If we are part and parcel of God or little peace of him as you stated, then God must have some human attributes, don't you think"?

He does, now that we are here. Prior to our existence that beautiful brain that drives the universe had no more of an idea of what it was like to be human than we did. "It" learns as we learn. Boy, I know that is going to raise some eyebrows as it relates to "our" definition to what "omnipotence" means and "alpha and omega" stuff. This is simple reasoning. If the future where known we would have been endowed with ultimate wisdom from the beginning and the list I so often refer to wouldn't exist and life would have been hunky dory from the first day through out eternity. That's why I say our sensate existence is what is new. And wow!, do we like it. What ever we were prior to this, innately doesn't hole a candle to what we are now and that is the problem. We don't want to give it up. And that is where GREED comes form. Our greatest plague.

"God never created anything for his own amusement, he created only what his omniscience knew was necessarily, in his creation"

I agree.

"I agree it is we humans who are confused when it comes to God, God has absolutely no problem knowing exactly who and what we are"

I agree.

"God is the "Omniscient Mind that pervades and sustains all existence"

God IS all existence and then some.....

"A being a"Consolidated Mind" can never be an entity of pure love as some suppose."

In my opinion the jury is still out on what the true definition of "love" is. I just know it had something to do with that cleansing I went through and if that is anyway a glimpse of what it means..........WOW!

"Thus creation is a duality!!"

Please forgive me for not entirely understanding what is meant by "duality" in all contexts. If it means for us to understand goodness we must understand that which is evil. Am I one the right track? I will answer this if you will be a little more precise as to the context of what it means. Thanks.

"How have you gone from belief to knowing William?, that statement interests me greatly, I do not doubt what you say that is a friendly question."

I have no doubt as to the friendliness of the question, I assure you. You entire demeanor here is refreshingly benign and I greatly appreciate that. Please allow me a little more time on this one. I know the answer, but interpreting in a way that will be understood will take a little time. I hope you don't mind?

"Now I can relate some events that happened to me during a near death experience".

I can't answer that for I have never had one. It could be, and this is entirely speculation, based on the subconscious and what you have stored in memory.

"I seemed at one stage to have merged with the "GODMIND" that pervades and upholds all existence"

That is what I think is "mania". It afflicts those who have an innate understanding of "this ain't right" and have predisposition to find out why as they battle the knowledge they have stored in memory. For that knowledge is a part of that mechanism "that ain't right" and we have a hard time letting it go. What you interpret as "Godmind" is what transpires as the "plug" enters the socket. The depression is what one goes through in that debriefing process as it tries to balance what is in memory and that "new"awareness as a result of that plug making contact. It is extremely conflicting. I think it depends on how dependent one is on the "stuff" one has in memory. Memory has it all. Every crying dime of all that you have experience in this life is in there. The good, the bad and the ugly of it. Sorting is all out is impossible if the plug is laying on the floor. In my opinion, you are one of the lucky ones. When I went through it, there was no one like me to explain it to me. Ha. Please, that was not meant to be condescending in any respect. If I can help you get through it, my life has fulfilled it's purpose. All of my posts have but one objective and that is to help people find their "plug". God, wouldn't that be great. I can only dream of what that reality will represent.

"Then I knew Everything, all question where answered, I felt Omnipotent, so much so that if I wanted to I could effect the universe or even destroy it".

Interesting you should say that. That is what happens when you get just a tiny, glimpse of that "universal mind". You think you are "superman", Wow!!!!!! Your confidence becomes overwhelming and then you start trying to control it with that which you have in memory and it just didn't pan out did it. Not by a long shot. Frustration, anger and confusion ensued as you thought you had the answers. Don't feel bad, that's par for the course. Dumping he memory of that "malignant knowledge" it contains is not easy. That's were faith comes or elimination of fear, which are one and the same. You can't be afraid and have faith at the same time. One cancels the other out. Faith and Fear, hmmm, that's a good topic we can discuss in another thread, for it is too extensive to handle here.

"It was strange, like a pilot handing over the controls of a huge airplane to me, but with all the knowledge ingrained to navigate it"

Yeah, that's right until you realized you didn't have a clue as to how to navigate a plane? Huh! You had an idea of "what" should be done, you just didn't quite know how to do it.

Blasphemy some might say, you are/were God, remember Jesus said, don't you know you are GODS?
So I am tempted to believe what you believe, we are really God and must just realize the truth thereof.

Now your cooking.

Peace, light, and Joy:a-ok:

William

---------- Post added at 04:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:26 PM ----------

Krumple wrote:

What I am saying is that when you have the concept of "I" immediately you get the concept of "NOT I". Then generally what follows is a whole procession of questions, what created this I, where does this I originate, how does this I come into being. That is where god is created from. If there is no concept of "I" the concept of god will never arise.

The "I" is a product of ego, and ego only. That's where it originates. It is our defense mechanism. We actually need it to "survive" in this world. Notice, I did not say "live" in this world. Survive and live are two entirely different paradigms. There nothing wrong with having a healthy since of "self", but when it gets out of hand it's really gets bad. The operative word is "we". Such as "we" are all in this together type of we, not to be confused with those havens we have in which "birds of a feather flock together" type of "we". Like exist's as it relates to races, cultures, religions, and countries and any group that we use to protect us from the other groups that happen to think differently than the group we (a lot of "I's" put together) belong to. There are close to 7 billion I's on this planet and the only reason we have survived as long as we have is because of the defense mechanisms each group has devised to sustain itself. And the competitive nature of some of those groups to acquire supremacy is why we kill each other. Once we realize we are all in the same group and truly start communicating with trust, understanding and cooperation will we begin to dissolve those groups and create a reality in which we don't need "defense mechanisms". When I use the word we, it is a global term.
As far as you comment: paraphrasing, " the I is where God comes from", as it relates to God, you are absolutely correct. Now it is important to understand, we are a part of that "I" for there are not other "I's", to compete with. It's all "one", which the word "oneness" comes from. Can you possibly imagine what we could accomplish once we all begin cooperating "together" as we get in tune with that "Big "I" in the sky" as it were. Ha.
William

0 Replies

@Elmud,

William I will respond later to your post, but what I posted had nothing to do with my mania, it had all to do with a near death event I had

Alan

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall wrote:

William I will respond later to your post, but what I posted had nothing to do with my mania, it had all to do with a near death event I had

Alan

Sorry. I interpreted those feelings of being "omnipotent" and "destroying the universe" wrongly then. Please except my apology. :perplexed:
William

0 Replies

@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

What I am saying is that when you have the concept of "I" immediately you get the concept of "NOT I". Then generally what follows is a whole procession of questions, what created this I, where does this I originate, how does this I come into being. That is where god is created from. If there is no concept of "I" the concept of god will never arise.

hello krumple-
during the experience of gnosis, one does not have the concept of i. one senses awareness of being, but not of being 'something' . in other words, there is no awareness of gender, age, identity, nothing at all...there are no longer any questions, no duality. but one sensation stands out above all and that is what can only be called when one is forced to use the extremely limited faculty of human language...love.

i know how stupid, illogical and lame it sounds to someone who hasnt had the experience. if i knew how to put it in a pill i would give it away free for the asking. the effects change a person forever, and as they return to a normal ordinary everyday perception of existence, that memory lives on and becomes the driving force, the reason and cause of everything.

this experience of gnosis i believe is innate in all human beings, it is a state of existence that is part of our past history which we all share and need only some catalyst or trigger to remember. near death experiences are one of the ways it manifests.

god is also an unfortunate way of referring to this being/knowing state, but it is something we did not have to create...only to remember.

---------- Post added at 06:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:00 AM ----------

william and alan-
i think you seem to both be in agreement, from my viewpoint as a reader, but are expressing your convictions in different choice of words.

for instance, alan, when you said "creation is duality" i would say you are referring to the theory that before creation, or manifestation which is the term i like to use, there was no duality-no 'i/not i, not male/female, no is/is not' etc etc etc. am i right?

you both reached the same place on different paths....as i see it.

1 Reply

@Elmud,

Quote:

i know how stupid, illogical and lame it sounds to someone who hasnt had the experience.

Then it is not practical. I also see it as just an inch away from hatred. Why is it at one point you see two people happily in love end with one murdering the other? Why is it a father can kill his daughter for not obeying the laws in theology?

If love is so hard to obtain or to find, what good is it? If its rare or requires a unique experience to know it, then what good is it? Does love cure cancer or does ambition to help the betterment of society drive it? Would you call it love? I wouldn't...

There is compassion for beings, but calling it love in my opinion is slapping a label of an expiration date.

As for god being love, I don't see it and the closest reference is a being willing to destroy with a flood being love? Then I want nothing to do with love or such a being...

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

Then it is not practical. I also see it as just an inch away from hatred. Why is it at one point you see two people happily in love end with one murdering the other? Why is it a father can kill his daughter for not obeying the laws in theology?

If love is so hard to obtain or to find, what good is it? If its rare or requires a unique experience to know it, then what good is it? Does love cure cancer or does ambition to help the betterment of society drive it? Would you call it love? I wouldn't...

There is compassion for beings, but calling it love in my opinion is slapping a label of an expiration date.

As for god being love, I don't see it and the closest reference is a being willing to destroy with a flood being love? Then I want nothing to do with love or such a being...

the 'it' i was referring to is the experience of gnosis. that is what seems to be stupid, illogical and lame. and no, it is not 'practical'.

what you are referring to in your two examples above is human love, born out of the experience of duality, which bears no resemblance to that which i mentioned as having no better word in the language to refer to it other than 'love'. yes, human love most assuredly does resemble hatred.

there are so many associations and mental images that immediately show up when we hear those common words like god and love.

0 Replies

@salima,

salima wrote:

hello krumple-
during the experience of gnosis, one does not have the concept of i. one senses awareness of being, but not of being 'something' . in other words, there is no awareness of gender, age, identity, nothing at all...there are no longer any questions, no duality. but one sensation stands out above all and that is what can only be called when one is forced to use the extremely limited faculty of human language...love.

i know how stupid, illogical and lame it sounds to someone who hasnt had the experience. if i knew how to put it in a pill i would give it away free for the asking. the effects change a person forever, and as they return to a normal ordinary everyday perception of existence, that memory lives on and becomes the driving force, the reason and cause of everything.

this experience of gnosis i believe is innate in all human beings, it is a state of existence that is part of our past history which we all share and need only some catalyst or trigger to remember. near death experiences are one of the ways it manifests.

god is also an unfortunate way of referring to this being/knowing state, but it is something we did not have to create...only to remember.

---------- Post added at 06:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:00 AM ----------

william and alan-
i think you seem to both be in agreement, from my viewpoint as a reader, but are expressing your convictions in different choice of words.

for instance, alan, when you said "creation is duality" i would say you are referring to the theory that before creation, or manifestation which is the term i like to use, there was no duality-no 'i/not i, not male/female, no is/is not' etc etc etc. am i right?

you both reached the same place on different paths....as i see it.

It that is correct William and I have the same knowledge about existence, the cause thereof, and what sustains it. Maybe still differ on a few minor points we must still to clear up between ourselves

By duality, I mean creation consists of light and dark, love and hate, positive and negative, good and bad, life and death (mortal death of the physical body)

William it still insist I am a mystic for the reasons indicated below, and I know you are also a mystic by the contents of your insightful posts
A mystic is one who, above all else in life, desires to know, not in the intellectual sense of knowing, the deepest Truth of existence. A mystic is one who senses more to life than making a living or being of service in the world although these things are both necessary and good.

The mystic, however, is looking beyond an exclusive or preoccupied focus on these survival or self-actualization to something more. He is looking to discover the deepest truth of our being as incarnate souls; to understand our greatest potential as reflections of God; to realize our wholeness within the ground of all.

The primary interest in life for the mystic is to discover truth, to know God; to see into mans whole nature. The mystic sees all of life as an abundant opportunity to discover, realize, and express the Divine.

Mysticism springs from an insatiable curiosity for understanding the essential questions of life: matters of God, creation, the infinite and the human potential for knowing truth.

The mystic is in reality the ultimate scientist, in my opinion of course who, by looking beyond the apparent or obvious in all matters, asks, "Is this that I am seeing reality or the illusions that stem from fear?" "What existed before this sense of reality?" "What existed before my mental constructs, my beliefs, and my self identity?" "Who is this that observes and is self-reflecting?" "What is at life's very source?

A mystic seeks to merge with the God mind to know the source of all knowledge. I have done this but my human frame and brain does not enable me to retain all knowledge about every thing. It is like plugging into a source

I think one is born a mystic, just my personal view

Mysticism, misunderstood by mainstream culture People incorrectly think mysticism is some kind of odd occult or a mystic someone who studies magic or renounces life and goes off to live in a cave. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The mystic consciously enters into the sacred journey that all the world's great religions speak of in various ways.

It is an inner journey that requires a deconstruction of the conditioned illusions of separation so that the true freedom of living can emerge.

It is the true meaning of realization of the real reality and source of all existence. It is the process and realization of letting die our stale and conditioned habits and beliefs so that we may live in the fullness of each new moment of creation.

It is the understanding that conditioned patterns, belief systems, and memory are not living, but dead moments already. It is the realization that true living can only be lived in a freedom that moves with the current of creation, forever open to each moment teaming with new potential.

Mysticism springs from an insatiable curiosity for understanding the essential questions of life: matters of God, creation, the infinite and the human potential for knowing truth. The mystic is in reality the ultimate scientist who, looking beyond the apparent or obvious in all matters, asks, "Is this that I am seeing reality or the illusions that stem from fear?" "What existed before this sense of reality?" "What existed before my mental constructs, my beliefs, and my self identity?" "Who is this that observes and is self-reflecting?" "What is at life's very source?"

It is by spiritual insight, to achieve direct communication with god or the divine reality. Some of my friends were horrified by my life long search to commune and dialog directly with the Divine. Why not? God never said we could not ask him questions and I did and asked him question that others might find horrifying and presumptuous

From this the realization came it came to me, that we are like sentient droplets the evaporated from the Great Ocean, the Divine Source most call God. Each off us are unique mind within the Greater Mind or God, we never loose our uniqueness, but travel back to the Source through rivers of forgetfulness and rivers of memory until we become aware in the Absolute.

It is this state of Omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence that I achieved, somehow my essence became the essence of the Greater Composite Mind and I knew I could become a Creator in my own right

Scores of people down the annals of history were mystics to a greater or lesser degree, where I fit in is debatable, but "I know" the reality of whom I AM within the reality of the complexities we call creation

If you can tick off most of the above attributes, consider yourself as mystic

Peace light knowledge toward true realization

Alan

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