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Melting Democracy

 
 
thysin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2009 08:37 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder wrote:
Western civilization is founded upon democracy and capitalism.

It is suggested that everyone has this freedom and opportunity.

However in reality democracy is not based upon freedom but rather majority rule. One has the right to vote, but if their side loses they lose their right to be free. If you vote for someone who wants to get rid of taxes, and the opposition wins, who wants to create more taxes, you will soon find out how free you are to have your way when you try to avoid paying those taxes.

The minority of that governed populace soon finds out how much freedom they have when their rights are blocked by the ruling majority.

This was once an intention of good will, but over time trying to accommodate so many various factions of society with so many varying desires wanting to be expressed, this fragile tin melting pot has begun to burn at the bottom and boil over and cause great destruction to the forming stew.

What do you suppose will be the end result of government intervention into our lives? Each cycle of elections brings the opposite side of the wing design into power opening and closing doors as though they do not really know which way to swing. :brickwall:

Will this confused state of boiling become our certain demise?

I hate to be a plank in the eye of good intention but...:poke-eye:

We are going down and the terrorists that wish to see our destruction don't have to do anything other than move here and add another ingredient to the stewpot.


What are you going to do about it?

I completely agree with 99% of the stuff I've read in this thread and discussing it is a great starting point. But what next?
Dewey phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2009 02:58 pm
@thysin,
thysin wrote:
What are you going to do about it?

I completely agree with 99% of the stuff I've read in this thread and discussing it is a great starting point. But what next?



If you mean you gave 99% to Pathfinder's wholesale condemnation of democratic government, thysin, you really know how to hurt a guy! I thought my defense argument was pretty good -- surely worth at least a few more points than your measly 1%!

Pathfinder may yet reply and tell you what he would do about the problem as he sees it. But I have to warn you, it's probably going to be along the lines of us having to throw out the democratic form of government altogether. Anarchy anyone?
0 Replies
 
thysin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 02:52 am
@Dewey phil,
Dewey wrote:
I'm entering this discussion rather late, following 18 previous posts. So it might be a good idea to restate the basic issue. As I understand it, the proposition of Pathfinder and most of the other posters is this: Democratic voting allows the winning majority voters to deprive the losing minority voters of their rights and freedom.

The proponents of this view believe it's a serious defect in America's democratic form of government - possibly so serious as to warrant switching to another kind. "We are going down" one poster.warns. "Democracy is mob rule and IMO the very worst form of government, violent rule of the stupid." another says. "Really, this (democracy) is fascism with a smile." still another claims. They would have us believe that the sky is falling!

Well, I have searched the sky a bit and believe it's quite secure.

What we are talking about is, as Khethil has pointed out, commonly referred to as the tyranny of the majority. It is a questionnable concept to begin with. The idea. that the majority will tyrannize and exploit diverse smaller interests, has been countered by evidence instead that narrow and well organized minorities are more likely to assert their interests over those of the majority.

Overcome that counter-argument and you still face a lot of mitigating facts. The founding fathers were well aware of the risks in majority voting. That's one reason why they provided all those checks and balances. That's the reason why we have the Bill of Rights.

No one can deny that this republic has serious election and voting problems But they are not inherent democracy flaws.


I'm sorry! :O

I can't disagree with most of what you said because we wont know until we know. I loosely agree with the doomed to repeat it idea, but how can we really say? Nothing is like it was then...this is the fastest we've advanced as a civilization and it's snowballing. A sled ride can turn from fun to terror before you know what's even going on(makes funny vids though). It's hard to say if the 'sky is falling' or not because it's such a huge picture these days. I'll say from the random conversations on the state of the country/world I have had, there is a general consensus that something is very wrong. I will admit that most of those conversations were with crazy vets like me, but I think I feel at least part of society tremoring a bit.

I don't think we can just 'switch', though. It has it's own momentum that doesn't look like it'll stop, seems the best route might just be letting it crash and recovering afterwards. Would I be going to far to say that the founding fathers may have had too much faith in patriotism? Politicians of today seem to be treating their offices as more of a business than a responsibility, or duty. I doubt they thought that would happen. You check mine, I'll balance yours! Democracy is ideal, humans aren't.

All that said I suppose that I completely agree with a likely meltdown but the reasons why are what I stated above.
0 Replies
 
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 06:19 am
@Pathfinder,
Dewey,

Every civilization in recorded history eventually grows to an exploding point. Wherever freedom is suppressed there is always revolution. And wherever freedom leans too far to one side or the other it always collapses the boat.

What do we do about that? Can we learn from the past to float a well balanced ship? I guess you really know the answer to that don't you!

I do not patronize members here with useless argument because most of us here are intelligent people and there should be no need to effort a detailed explanation of discourse.

You have had your say and I have had mine. We intelligently think about what has been said and continue with logical response. But this is one of those issues that has no answer and there is no need for argument just for the sake of argument.

The melting pot ideology is, and always has been, one continuing disaster after another. Those who manage to find themselves in roles of authority and control that might actually bear some logic and intelligence are always far outweighed and maneuvered by the moronic decisions and gestures of the majority. Face it, most of us are not that bright.

Scrap democracy? Adopt anarchy? Why? Neither have worked and they all have their faults and downfalls and ultimately meet their demise.

Humanity is mostly a flock of sheep just wanting one of the other members of the flock to lead them to greener pasture. All they want to do is forage and mate without bother. Sure, we have a curiosity and hope that drives us to seek better things for our loved ones, but in general the majority of the populace is passive and just wants to be led to greener pastures by someone else. Unfortunately it is the minority of the populace that is more aggressive and bullish that tend to take hold of the reigns and lead the flock. And keeping those powerful aspects of humanity under control is not easy once they attain access to power and authority. The schoolyard bully pretty much reigns until some hero comes along. And then this period of peace lasts only long enough for the hero to be overwhelmed by the more numerous anti heroes. You see, heroes are even more of a minority.

This is the problem with our world in an nutshell. Too many followers, too many bullies, and not enough heroes.

Now don't use this to slam me about all of our very heroic veterans. I am not talking about the heroism of those who are drawn into positions where they must find their courage or be defeated. Or those who are forced to defend their loved ones or watch them die.

I am talking about the heroes who have the talent, opportunity and intelligence to become leaders and attain positions of authority that can actually effect far reaching accomplishment. Heroes like Saladin, Wallace and King are too few to bring this world into a long lasting era of peace and stability. This unfortunate truth is evident from the schoolyard to the smallest village, to the greatest of cities, to the largest of countries, and across the globe. It is man's greatest weakness.

So what will I do? Will you be the hero? Can the hero last? Where is this savior, or saviors, that will change the world? They will certainly have their hands full won't they!
thysin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 11:40 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder wrote:
So what will I do? Will you be the hero? Can the hero last? Where is this savior, or saviors, that will change the world? They will certainly have their hands full won't they!


Guess they wont be a hero unless they can deal with it then, eh? Hopefully our society is still capable of producing such. I've been spreading the word as much as possible, having conversations and just planting seeds. Is this wrong of me? I would rather my descendants curse me for doing the wrong thing for good purposes than letting something bad happen just because I 'wasn't sure'.
Phosphorous
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 11:56 am
@Pathfinder,
Oh, Boo Hoo... you're so sad that america is coming to an end. Where are the heroes to save us?

Talk about *****ing and moaning, pardon my french. But why don't you take your sheep mentality elsewhere? I certainly don't need any hero in my life but me. If I let others tell me what to do, that's my fault. And it's your fault if you are complaining about this without taking responsibility for your own country.

It's like you're trying to put yourself above all the other sheep by lamenting how you know that everyone is just a little sheep, and thus you're so wise that you can't even stand up for yourself and demand your rights. Give me a break.

Don't think you're better than these sheep until you've actually, y'know, become better than them. :asleep:
0 Replies
 
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 01:04 pm
@thysin,
Heroes are not created after their great deeds, but by their intent and determination beforehand.
0 Replies
 
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 01:11 pm
@Pathfinder,
Phosphorous,

Seeing the mud one is standing in and knowing enough to step out of it is not useless whining.

It is those who continue to trudge from one mess into another with indignant stubbornness that precludes useless effort.

You speak as one who would jump on your mount and ride headlong into the battle without any preconceived battle strategy other than to scream out your battlecry " God save the Queen!" and a few short moments later lay dead in the field.

Charge my friend! Sally forth!
thysin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 01:15 pm
@Pathfinder,
I think that maybe phosphorus is a bit more along the lines that he would make everyone believe he was that sort, but when it came down to it he would curl up in a little ball. I've met too many blowhards like that to not know it when I see it.
Dewey phil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 03:18 pm
@thysin,
Pathfinder says:

"I do not patronize members here with useless argument because most of us here are intelligent people and there should be no need to effort a detailed explanation of discourse."

"You have had your say and I have had mine. We intelligently think about what has been said and continue with logical response. But this is one of those issues that has no answer and there is no need for argument just for the sake of argument."


Dewey replies:

Gosh Pathfinder, I really am trying to understand you. I sympathize, and to some extent, share your doubts and fears about the survival of our freedom or democracy or civilization -- whichever you refer to above as "one of those issues". But I'm completely baffled by your comments about argument.

Argument is good. It's a two-way exchange of reasoned information between people. It's a means of persuading others to agree with your concluding views and opinions. And, though we all tend to forget this important fact, it's also the means of learning from others whether your views and opinions need to be changed.

Philosophers all agree that in all our discussions and arguments we only pursue the real truth. We're not there yet. With respect to the broad issues you have raised, we're not even close. It seems obvious to me that there is a great need to continue - and improve -- these discussions and arguments.

Well, You started this thread, Pathfinder. It's really yours. So I'll defer to your wish. No more argument from me here. Thanks for the opportunity to say this much.
0 Replies
 
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 04:02 pm
@Pathfinder,
Dewey you misunderstood me.

What I meant was that needless argument for the sake of argument, where one person is becoming beligerent about his stance is where I draw the line. Sometimes an argument that really has no solution just becomes an argument of desire to win.


the other character here called thysin is one such example and there is really not much sense in discussing anything with him.


He has me quivering in my boots and curled up in a little ball already you see. Why would I expose myself to being demeaned and ridiculed by some total stranger that obviously cannot even begin to have a discourse with me.
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 04:14 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder wrote:
mob rule? oh yeah, big time, the worst mob ever. two gangs, the dems and repubs. two mobs ruling the world.

The mafia has nothing over these mobs.



What I would like to know is which is the crips and which is the bloods, and where does Nater fit in?

---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:14 PM ----------

BrightNoon wrote:
Exactly. My idea of freedom is not confined to putting a peice of paper in a box.


The freedom comes in the form of the right under the constitution to work to influence the voters to your opinion and then make it policy. To argue for total "freedom" as in i do what i want when i want all the time, no one has this and never will. I want to fly, I want to live forever, I want to bed supermodels nightly whatever. There are social laws built into our brains just as much as there are physical laws by which our bodies must abide. The issue of democracy and free is not an issue with democracy's faults, its an issue with the notion that we have unbridled non-causal free will, which is just not the case.
0 Replies
 
thysin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 04:20 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder wrote:
Dewey you misunderstood me.

What I meant was that needless argument for the sake of argument, where one person is becoming beligerent about his stance is where I draw the line. Sometimes an argument that really has no solution just becomes an argument of desire to win.


the other character here called thysin is one such example and there is really not much sense in discussing anything with him.


He has me quivering in my boots and curled up in a little ball already you see. Why would I expose myself to being demeaned and ridiculed by some total stranger that obviously cannot even begin to have a discourse with me.


I quoted your post to elaborate on my thoughts of Phosphorus, sorry if that was confusing but it wasn't directed at you. I actually agree with most of what you said...

I edited the post to remove your quote and clarify my post.
0 Replies
 
Phosphorous
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 07:34 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder wrote:
Phosphorous,

Seeing the mud one is standing in and knowing enough to step out of it is not useless whining.

It is those who continue to trudge from one mess into another with indignant stubbornness that precludes useless effort.

You speak as one who would jump on your mount and ride headlong into the battle without any preconceived battle strategy other than to scream out your battlecry " God save the Queen!" and a few short moments later lay dead in the field.

Charge my friend! Sally forth!


No problem here with formulating a plan for bettering society. Just keep in mind that at some point you have to, y'know, actually implement it. Can't do that on an internet web forum, sadly.
thysin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 07:50 pm
@Phosphorous,
This is a start.

Video 1

Video 2
0 Replies
 
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 08:04 pm
@Pathfinder,
Thysin I sincerely apologize.

I used your name in that post which was supposed to be directed at that Phosphorous nutjob. Sorry about any concern that may have caused you.

Phosphorous' responses were simply uncalled for and I usually do not bother but i was in one of those moods. I shall be more cautious about name checking in the future.
thysin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 08:10 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder wrote:
Thysin I sincerely apologize.

I used your name in that post which was supposed to be directed at that Phosphorous nutjob. Sorry about any concern that may have caused you.

Phosphorous' responses were simply uncalled for and I usually do not bother but i was in one of those moods. I shall be more cautious about name checking in the future.


No problemo, I figured it was something like that. I agree about his posts, not very constructive. Check out those videos, pretty interesting and it gives us 'something' to do...but don't send actual teabags...send the tabs or else they'll just toss em out(anthrax anyone?).
0 Replies
 
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 04:11 am
@Pathfinder,
Geez don't give em any ideas for cripes sakes, lol.
0 Replies
 
 

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