Melting Democracy

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Western civilization is founded upon democracy and capitalism.

It is suggested that everyone has this freedom and opportunity.

However in reality democracy is not based upon freedom but rather majority rule. One has the right to vote, but if their side loses they lose their right to be free. If you vote for someone who wants to get rid of taxes, and the opposition wins, who wants to create more taxes, you will soon find out how free you are to have your way when you try to avoid paying those taxes.

The minority of that governed populace soon finds out how much freedom they have when their rights are blocked by the ruling majority.

This was once an intention of good will, but over time trying to accommodate so many various factions of society with so many varying desires wanting to be expressed, this fragile tin melting pot has begun to burn at the bottom and boil over and cause great destruction to the forming stew.

What do you suppose will be the end result of government intervention into our lives? Each cycle of elections brings the opposite side of the wing design into power opening and closing doors as though they do not really know which way to swing. :brickwall:

Will this confused state of boiling become our certain demise?

I hate to be a plank in the eye of good intention but...:poke-eye:

We are going down and the terrorists that wish to see our destruction don't have to do anything other than move here and add another ingredient to the stewpot.

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@Pathfinder,

Hey Pathfinder,

Interesting post. I'm curious though - and wondering if you could expand on this..

Pathfinder wrote:

... One has the right to vote, but if their side loses they lose their right to be free.

Thanks

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@Pathfinder,

Sure Klethil,

In such a voting process there is always a victor and a loser.

The losing side loses much ability to have its desires appeased and the winner gets to subdue the oppositions desires.

Many who vote for the losing party than also lose their opportunities as well.

The thought I wish to provoke is that in a society where equality is supposed to be the goal, and such an elusive prey can never be captured because it is impossible to please everyone, when the minority's equalities are lost to elected opposition how can they maintain their equality?

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@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder wrote:

Sure Klethil,

In such a voting process there is always a victor and a loser.

The losing side loses much ability to have its desires appeased and the winner gets to subdue the oppositions desires.

Many who vote for the losing party than also lose their opportunities as well.

The thought I wish to provoke is that in a society where equality is supposed to be the goal, and such an elusive prey can never be captured because it is impossible to please everyone, when the minority's equalities are lost to elected opposition how can they maintain their equality?

That doesn't mean that the "losing side" loses their right to be free, it just means that they are less likely to have policies that appease their values put into action. The pendulum of democracy tends to swing back the other way through election cycles balancing everything out over time.

I think what you are trying to get at is something John Stuart Mill called the tyranny of the majority. This is where the majority rules at will over the minority because they can.

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@Theaetetus,

There is no tyrannical accusation being made here Theatus, just observation.

What would you say to the situation of gay rights for instance, when the conservative right gets into power and manages to outlaw any public practice of homosexuality?

Would that not be a violation of rights? A loss to their side. How is that balanced out? Are you saying that this pendulum swingin back and forth is an efficient way to come to peace? One step forweard and one step backward gets us nowhere fast.

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@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder wrote:

There is no tyrannical accusation being made here Theatus, just observation.

You are observing the tyranny of the majority, which is not a tyranny in the traditional sense. When there are only two sides in a democracy, a simple majority can rule over everyone at will without considering their view point.

Pathfinder wrote:

What would you say to the situation of gay rights for instance, when the conservative right gets into power and manages to outlaw any public practice of homosexuality?

I find this to be an example of a tyranny of the majority since most of these policies are voted on by the people. Because a majority of the people that vote tend to be anti-gay, they pretty much can dictate what the minority can or cannot do legally. I don't agree with it, but that is the way the law and voting works.

Pathfinder wrote:

How is that balanced out? Are you saying that this pendulum swingin back and forth is an efficient way to come to peace? One step forweard and one step backward gets us nowhere fast.

This is my problem with democracy. It too trendy. Public opinion switches far too often to ever fully accomplish anything, because good ideas are not allowed to fully mature.

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@Pathfinder,

Thanks, I gotcha now

Pathfinder wrote:

... The losing side loses much ability to have its desires appeased and the winner gets to subdue the oppositions desires.... Many who vote for the losing party than also lose their opportunities as well.

[INDENT]Quite true; but this isn't "freedom" lost, is it? Nor is it equality. Not to get stuck in the mud on semantics, but I believe those were the words you used to frame your point.
[/INDENT]

Pathfinder wrote:

The thought I wish to provoke is that in a society where equality is supposed to be the goal, and such an elusive prey can never be captured because it is impossible to please everyone, when the minority's equalities are lost to elected opposition how can they maintain their equality?

[INDENT]We'll never please everyone, I'll be the first to stand up and agree with you on that. But again; this isn't freedom or equality. It is - in a way - a subset of 'equal opportunity' but then again, as we've agreed, we'll never please everyone.
[/INDENT]On a side note, since I sense we're on the same page with regards to the dynamics here, I personally *like* to see the liberal/conservative pendulum swing back and forth. I think it's a good thing for the long-term health of a nation, lest one party's more "extreme" notions dominate for far too long to accommodate diversity. What do you think?

Thanks

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@Khethil,

After ten thousand years of trying to make mass society work, make it peaceful and accommodate everyone, when will we realize that mass society is a beast that will not allow for such things?

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

The fathers of America didnt like the idea of a democracy. They actually wanted to embrace a republic with the Constitution as the supporting pillar. I think you have some good points pathfinder/

peace

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@Joe,

Joe wrote:

The fathers of America didnt like the idea of a democracy. They actually wanted to embrace a republic with the Constitution as the supporting pillar. I think you have some good points pathfinder/

I find it rather funny that the founding fathers created a republic to protect the people from mob rule, the major problem of a democracy, but the two party system ended up creating mob rule any way.

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@Pathfinder,

I like what didymous said,

we have history to show us where we have been and what has happened to virtually every civilization that reaches these points.

With regard to the swinging of the pendulum I appreciate the intention of that swinging but recognize the futility of it. Is there a better way? That is for another discussion unless we want to challenge that here.

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@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder wrote:

However in reality democracy is not based upon freedom but rather majority rule. One has the right to vote, but if their side loses they lose their right to be free. If you vote for someone who wants to get rid of taxes, and the opposition wins, who wants to create more taxes, you will soon find out how free you are to have your way when you try to avoid paying those taxes.

I was always under the impression that the U.S. was more of a Republic than a Democracy.

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@Pathfinder,

mob rule? oh yeah, big time, the worst mob ever. two gangs, the dems and repubs. two mobs ruling the world.

The mafia has nothing over these mobs.

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@Pathfinder,

Democracy is mob rule and IMO the very worst form of government; violent rule of the stupid. The idea in this country was constitutional republicanism, which IMO is the very best form of government. That is no more.

...I seem
..to be
..slipping down
..something...

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@Theaetetus,

Theaetetus wrote:

That doesn't mean that the "losing side" loses their right to be free, it just means that they are less likely to have policies that appease their values put into action. The pendulum of democracy tends to swing back the other way through election cycles balancing everything out over time.

I think what you are trying to get at is something John Stuart Mill called the tyranny of the majority. This is where the majority rules at will over the minority because they can.

Freedom is basically the ability to choose. In any system where democratic involvement is not a choice (every democratic state), a lost vote is a restriction on the ability to choose (this is tautologically true), therefore a lost vote is lost freedom.

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@Pathfinder,

The lost vote simply means that the opposite of whatever it was that you wanted for your lifestyle is now being enforced against your desire. How is that freedom?

This is just basically a lottery. you cast your vote and if you are lucky enough you will win.

The process suggesting that at least we have the freedom to vote does not give your equality or rights any more power once they are voted against by a majority. You will be thrown into jail as fast as the next person if you go against the majority.

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@Pathfinder,

Exactly. My idea of freedom is not confined to putting a peice of paper in a box.

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@Pathfinder,

Are we a Democracy or a Republic?

1 Reply

@Elmud,

Legally, this is a republic. According to our politicians and 'popular culture,' this is a democracy. Really, this is fascism with a smile. Smile

1 Reply

@BrightNoon,

I'm entering this discussion rather late, following 18 previous posts. So it might be a good idea to restate the basic issue. As I understand it, the proposition of Pathfinder and most of the other posters is this: Democratic voting allows the winning majority voters to deprive the losing minority voters of their rights and freedom.

The proponents of this view believe it's a serious defect in America's democratic form of government - possibly so serious as to warrant switching to another kind. "We are going down" one poster.warns. "Democracy is mob rule and IMO the very worst form of government, violent rule of the stupid." another says. "Really, this (democracy) is fascism with a smile." still another claims. They would have us believe that the sky is falling!

Well, I have searched the sky a bit and believe it's quite secure.

What we are talking about is, as Khethil has pointed out, commonly referred to as the tyranny of the majority. It is a questionnable concept to begin with. The idea. that the majority will tyrannize and exploit diverse smaller interests, has been countered by evidence instead that narrow and well organized minorities are more likely to assert their interests over those of the majority.

Overcome that counter-argument and you still face a lot of mitigating facts. The founding fathers were well aware of the risks in majority voting. That's one reason why they provided all those checks and balances. That's the reason why we have the Bill of Rights.

No one can deny that this republic has serious election and voting problems But they are not inherent democracy flaws.

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Melting Democracy

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