Is death the only way out?

@xris,

xris wrote:

Ill leave the universe to itself im mortal.

But instead you'll overvalue the existence of your life which is in the universe? How does that sit? Yes, you are mortal, just like the fish is mortal.

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

But instead you'll overvalue the existence of your life which is in the universe? How does that sit? Yes, you are mortal, just like the fish is mortal.

I dont overvalue life i cherish it for what it is..

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@xris,

xris wrote:

I dont overvalue life i cherish it for what it is..

Are humans lives the only lives you cherish?

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

Are humans lives the only lives you cherish?

I cant see what this has to do with the human relationship..If you want to turn me into a vegetarian make another thread..If you value animal kingdom above your family relationship its your values not mine nor the vast majority of humanity..You wont weaken my debate by watering it down with this diversion.

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@xris,

xris wrote:

I cant see what this has to do with the human relationship..If you want to turn me into a vegetarian make another thread..If you value animal kingdom above your family relationship its your values not mine nor the vast majority of humanity..You wont weaken my debate by watering it down with this diversion.

You can see my longer responses to the human relationship - the human relationship isn't any more profound than any other relationship amongst creatures. I never said I value the animal kingdom above humans. I'm saying I don't value any existence above one. See my response to Icon, this wasn't a diversion; in fact, it's the heart of my argument. I don't see how you feel my question doesn't have to do with the human relationship; if you only cherish human lives, then of course you have human relationship on a pedestal. That's the point! And I, personally, don't choose to place it on a pedestal.

We just fundamentally disagree on the objective significance of life in general. Thanks for your time,

Z

"The fears of mortality must be forgotten; no longer living for death, no longer dying to live. Existence and nonexistence coagulating"

- Not me

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

If you're looking for the meaning of life, I can only provide another opinion.

Here's what I believe: We apply meaning. Nothing has innate meaning before we've applied it. That asteroid in the sky becomes an asteroid we've observed only after we've observed it. Before that, it just was. The universe just is, before we make our human judgments (and still is even after, but not to us). Therefore, it's silly, in my opinion, to overvalue our existence over anything else.

You ask, what is the purpose? I ask, why does there have to be one? Nature may very well toss us out eventually, and why is this so hard to believe? We are no greater than any of these other creatures here, despite having more developed brains. I don't believe humans are special. I'll agree that they are unique - we do have a developed frontal lobe. But actually, from a biological standpoint, we are pretty shitty for a species. Most mammals have defensible and survivable offspring by the first year; our 8-year-olds can barely do ****. Even from a sensory perspective, we aren't that great - Lions can see up to 4 times as great in darkness than we can, bats interact by emitting high-pitched sounds we can barely make out, most mammals even have a sense of touch that is much more sensitive than what we're capable etc. We exist no differently than any other species that has come before us. Did the dinosaurs have to have this profound purpose you're asking about? They're gone now, and yes, they were conscious.

Basically, whatever purpose you're contemplating for us, apply the same contemplation to every other being. We are picking one thing out (that we have more developed reasoning skills) and then saying we're special. We don't have wings, are birds special? We don't have tough hide, are hippopotamuses special? If you say one is special, say all are special, or don't say any are at all.

I never said that we were special. I said that we were unique. Don't mix words.

Birds have wings. They use them to fly. Hippo's have tough hide they use for defense. Lions have great night sight which they use for hunting and defense. humans have reasoning abilities. This goes to say that we should use this to reason. In order to reason, we have to assign purpose. In order for the lion to see, he has to open his eyes.

I am not saying that we are special and I would agree that we are inferior in a great number of ways to some animals. Still, we are superior in others. By your policy, there is no point in this conversation and there is no point in existence. If this is true, then why do animals fight to survive?

I too am an empiricist. The difference is that I look both inward and outward for inspired thought. Animals fight to survive and so do humans. Those who choose death are abnormal. In nature, when an animal goes to die, it is because it is weak and does not want to burden the heard or become a living meal. In humanity, sickness is not that sort of issue any more. Therefore, the only thing which we can consider is that purpose exists and that it is not assigned only by humans.

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@Zetherin,

In my opinion the most important link in the universe is that link we have with other human beings. From the higher rungs of ladder on down and the lower rungs up. The innate self which is what we are when we are born is totally free of ego. From the time we can understand and communicate we are programmed to be what society wants us to be and what that society requires from us with little regard to those 'natural abilities' we are born with.

How to properly nurture a child so that their natural abilities will surface, if it is being done, I am not aware of it. We are programmed to be something we are not, in most cases. Some have the ability to adapt to that programming, some don't. No matter who they are they cannot be anything other than who they are and become alienated. I was one of those people. As much as I wanted to be a part and conform to what society required, I couldn't. My parents tried to make me conform and found it useless and eventually let me alone. I don't mean they were cruel, they had just decided to let me learn the "hard way" and find out for myself. To their surprise, I manage okay. As much as they tried to instill 'fear' in me if I did not follow the rules, I was never afraid. I have mentioned in other post's as to where this comes from and will not go into that now. Let's just say I had a guardian angel taking care of me. Ha. When in truth, what I have learned, if we can stifle the fear that motivates our actions, the mind will see you though the twists and turns life and more often than not, steer you clear of suffering those events that leave almost indelible scars that are hard to heal.

IMO, the truth is we all need to fit in somewhere, naturally and use that pure knowledge we were born with. Those who were born with the most potential to offer as it relates to "helping" others and offering their great minds in such a way in which we will be able to solve some of the problems we face, quickly succumb to the system and are handsomely rewarded for what they can offer society. And so it has been going on like that of thousands of years. If one has nothing to offer, they become pariah's and dead weight. Some are more sensitive to this than others, especially those that cannot conform. Those are the ones that commit suicide. Living in a world that has no trouble conforming when you can't, is like hell on Earth. It is very hard in our infancy to understand what life truly means. I just know for some, what we call life, is impossible to imagine.

Most of you who call it selfish because you have the crust to endure being what society requires, yet each and everyone one of you pay a price for that compromise depending on how great that compromise is. Those who make the greatest compromises have the means to be far and away from "the real world" and are sheltered from it holding the conscience at bay. Out of sight, out of mind. Of course there is a part of that programming that has tattooed "good reasoning" that also keeps the conscience at bay as they define weakness and inability to adapt to this immeasurably unbalanced reality we have created as lazy, ignorant and worthless. What a crock. IMO.

The most sincere among us see through this facade and are totally helpless in that they do not have the ability to compromise at all. I know, my daughter was one of those people. She tried, and totally lost her "innate self" in that effort. She didn't have the crust and I failed to recognize it. My burden to bare.

IMO, the more one compromise's and rationalizes to fit in to this truly screwed up reality, the farther they get from any realization of what happiness is. It is replaced with those alternatives that comfort the ego such as power, status and self grandiosity as we proudly display our trophies of success for all to see, while our young are sticking needles in their arms, head banging, acquiring Std.s, aborting their unwanted young, and being rolled into emergency rooms from overdoses.

Please forgive me, for I have always thought and observed from a universal perch and no matter how I try, I am unable to climb down and see life as you want me to see it. From my view point witnessing the inequity that exists and the lame excuses that justify it, makes me see red.

Sorry, for the rant. Life could be better, a whole hell of a lot better for all who dwell here.

William

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@William,

Icon wrote:

In nature, when an animal goes to die, it is because it is weak and does not want to burden the heard or become a living meal. In humanity, sickness is not that sort of issue any more. Therefore, the only thing which we can consider is that purpose exists and that it is not assigned only by humans.

Because P (An animal goes to die because it is weak) and Q (A human doesn't go to die because it is weak) Therefore X (A purpose must exist for human)

Premise P: There are many variations of animal death - they do not just die because they are weak. No, none commit suicide because they don't have the reasoning skills; the act wouldn't even occur to them (not for any profound reasoning, but because they biologically can not fire electrical patterns in certain parts of the brain we can [or even have developed those parts])

Premise Q: We don't have that issue anymore of dying because we're weak, because of our ethics - systems we construct to keep us in order. And there are some systems that do advocate letting the weak die, such as Satanism. Universal empathy is a relatively new concept, and centuries ago many would kill simply because another was in a different tribe - and would most likely feel no regret. In war, many die because they are just too weak to continue, and often times, people will have to leave the weak. Now, I don't mean to focus on war, but the point is - we don't transcend animals even in this manner. Many examples of this could be brought up, and I understand the vast majority do not experience this, but that is only because we are in the confines of this society. If we didn't have all these rules guiding us, we could easily be intelligent barbarians (some suggest we are). If we threw you in the middle of the Holy war right now, and you hadn't experienced mankind before, you'd probably regard us as any other primitive species (with weapons, of course).

Just because we've evolved to a point where we're relatively peaceful, I can't conclude from your logicality that there is purpose. And when I say purpose, I'm defining it how I think you mean: An objective meaning behind everything. I don't see why humans reach for this. Why can't we just live, die, and then that's it? What if it's like sleeping when you die, you're unconscious, will never experience or think again? This doesn't sit well with many people, so they want to keep imaging there is some divine plan. Fine, if it makes you comfortable and happy, then sure, go for it.

From my perspective, we do have a purpose, just like everything has a purpose, from a tree, to a rock, to any animal. Whatever it does, is the purpose. It existing is the purpose.

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

Because P (An animal goes to die because it is weak) and Q (A human doesn't go to die because it is weak) Therefore X (A purpose must exist for human)

Premise P: There are many variations of animal death - they do not just die because they are weak. No, none commit suicide because they don't have the reasoning skills; the act wouldn't even occur to them (not for any profound reasoning, but because they biologically can not fire electrical patterns in certain parts of the brain we can [or even have developed those parts])

Premise Q: Just because we don't have that issue anymore of dying because we're weak, this is only true because of our ethics. In war, many die because they are just too weak to continue, and often times, people will have to leave the weak. Now, I don't mean to focus on war, but the point is - we don't transcend animals even in this manner. Many examples of this could be brought up, and I understand the vast majority do not experience this, but that is only because we are in the confines of this society. If we didn't have all these rules guiding us, we could easily be intelligent barbarians (some suggest we are).

I can't conclude from what your logicality that there is purpose. And when I say purpose, I'm defining it how I think you mean: An objective meaning behind everything.

Then we will agree to disagree. It is true that I have strong emotions towards this topic which may be why I am so adamant about this and I will step back and analyze my reasoning before continuing.

It must be said though.... a life without purpose does not seem to have any reason to be. If there is no purpose then it might be best to end it all because we are more of a hinderance at this point.

Frankly, I have purpose and it seems to be the best purpose suited for a human. My purpose is to learn everything I can before my death and to experience as much as possible. Experience is what we seem suited for as our minds are capable of remembering those experiences vivdly.

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@Icon,

Icon wrote:

Then we will agree to disagree. It is true that I have strong emotions towards this topic which may be why I am so adamant about this and I will step back and analyze my reasoning before continuing.

It must be said though.... a life without purpose does not seem to have any reason to be. If there is no purpose then it might be best to end it all because we are more of a hinderance at this point.

Frankly, I have purpose and it seems to be the best purpose suited for a human. My purpose is to learn everything I can before my death and to experience as much as possible. Experience is what we seem suited for as our minds are capable of remembering those experiences vivdly.

I'm sorry, buddy - I was actually editing as you typed your response. I explained how I perceive purpose if you want to scroll up.

But in response to this: We can't pinpoint what the purpose (not using any mystical notion here) of the rock is, nor can we pinpoint any purpose for any other species of existence. My qualm is that people focus only on humanity, when we could have no greater 'purpose' than any other being. So, that's why I say, everything does have purpose, it just is. To top it all off, we don't even have a universal definition of what 'life' is, but that's another topic...

Agree to disagree, I agree. But it would be worth getting into, perhaps in another thread. I am considering my stance daily (that's the nature of me; that's my purpose! :bigsmile:) If you want to start a thread where we can brainstorm some things, just PM me. Same goes to anyone else that wants to ponder any of this.

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Is death the only way out?

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