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The words of Jesus compared to that of the Old Testament

 
 
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 05:44 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;130649 wrote:

There is only one truth though. Either aliens did crash, or they didn't crash in New Mexico desert. Both of those can not be true. I am saying there must be a truth, and the truth you are offering me does not hold to what I see as evidence. Therefore the truth must be revisited and that is what I am doing.

What is evidence in the face of the majority? Really? it may sound like a joke, but what is a truth other than the most living it?
Some one must be wrong, better just the one man on his own than a whole mass, equaliy alone but pretending not to be? That was a joke, a sad one.

And all truths MUST be revisited, to think we have even the whole 'picture' yet is an arogance beyond delusion, but may be some form of conviction so sadly let it slide?

Nothing is true forever?
And yet some things grow more true with the understanding experience of said truth, more even than what 'truth' is supposed to be.

Krumple;130649 wrote:

Is it necessary? I wonder.

Wonder away, one day you may have to take up arms.
Wouldn't you prefer to know how to shoot straight than just how not to be shot at?

Krumple;130649 wrote:

I am not sure what you are actually requesting from me here. That you want an alternative salvation? If you are asking for that, I can not provide it, but not because I don't have one to offer, but instead I don't feel one is necessary in the first place. I am not evil by birth, nor are the wrongs of my ancestors my fault, therefore I am not to blame for what they have done or not done. Therefore I have nothing to apologize for or atone for.

Alternative salvation, when i am working so hard for what i can barely recognise as my own.
But sure salvation came from a man once, why not from you also?
Nothing to save you advocate?
Just for that good measure i know, believe you werent evil form birth, you own owe nothing to anyone but that which you have done or given.
I did not enslave you, why do you want demand (for it is not a need) relieve an apology from someone who never even wronged you, is putting more wrong on me, wrong that is not mine to bare, not yours to burden me with, take your guilt mongering elsewhere, i do not believe you. You are giving me false relief, and although confused i know relief is not a belief.
(this may not have made sense to anyone but me)
Krumple;130649 wrote:

I still see him as a victim. If he knew what he was about to do, that he was going to be the reliever of all humanity, why would he at the last few minutes leading up to it, request council? He asks god why he has been forsaken. This does not mesh with him sacrificing himself in a positive tone. If I knew that I could relieve this world's suffering by my death I would gladly go through with the worse and most painful of deaths if necessary for that to happen. I wouldn't be seeking council before it, I'd gladly step to it, but he doesn't and that is telling.

To be human is to doubt, no sacrifice comes without price.
Sacrifice is not free, it is ultimate price, paid and then some.
Jesus paid his price, ultimate price, self doubt, which is why in the first place we go running to God.
Self doubt is the curse of free will, you cant have one without the other.
You would not be free if you did not know there was a prison. ?

Krumple;130649 wrote:

[/COLOR]When I make a statement like no one questions something, I do not mean it isn't questioned. I am implying that to those who give it merit or credit have not questioned it. Like I have mentioned before, only ten percent of actual proclaimed Christians have actually read the bible. That fact points out something else, that they do not investigate their faith, they instead just accept what ever is handed to them.

Self proclamation is for wimps, do your best to prove something to me and respect is due, give me something i can shout from the roof tops, dont tell me to be quiet.
I dont know how one can have such a blessing as faith and not want to probe it, to caress it, to study it and bring it to some climax.
You cant make love to yourself.

Krumple;130649 wrote:

A little bit of a double negative here. Can I cancel out both negatives? Will you allow me to do that? Because that is what double negatives do. So if I do that and rewrite your sentence it becomes;

"I believe in them because i am told not to if that is what you are driving at."

I love double negatives, this is sort of one but NOT, the nots are needed.
Read again 'nots' included. I am best when read experienced second time, third time around.
(You are missing out if you dont study anything you meet in your life.)
Do what makes sense to you, i am not in your way.
You are wrong though, i do not say i believe in something because i am told not,
i dont not believe in something just because i dont know what something is not. You might have better luck de-negativising this:)
Krumple;130649 wrote:

I think you might want to rephrase the statement or else I am left in confusion for what you meant by not believing in gremlins. Or should I just assume that you believe they could exist even though you have never seen one?

Not quite, but dear fellow i am leaving it up to, you will get there, this is closer than the previous.

Krumple;130649 wrote:

I don't have that ability because I have tried to utilize it and it did not do as you profess is possible.

Did i profess anything was possible?
Utility is possibly where we all go wrong, we expect to much for not giving or preparing enough, you will know when enough is enough, it will be done, thy will for Christs sake will be done. (whoops) make sure you are worth your sacrifice.

Krumple;130649 wrote:

Can I admit I laughed a little from what you said here? Although not laughing at you, just how you said it.

So did I, what is life without a little laughter?
Krumple;130649 wrote:

I understand the power of belief. I understand that it can be useful in positive ways, but also it can be used in negative ways. My only concern is that we utilize understanding within reality to function within reality, so why is it necessary to use something outside reality to effect reality? When those who believe in something outside reality, to use against me, to impose their guilt onto me, it becomes something harmful to me. This is what I feel causes devastation onto the world just like if someone were polluting a stream with motor oil. I of course want them to stop and will say something to point out the harm they are causing.

Of course all power can be used for ill or for the greatest, belief is power, you have it or you spend your life trying to get it.
You cant change reality by being oputside of it, even if it is a reality you would not be as your first choice, you can still change and make things better by being inside rather than divorced away.

Bare with me a minute.
YOu would be a bad non Christian if you used your faith and power against any other, if you harm another you are a bad non Christian, especially those who profess to read and live the good book,
If you are harming people with your knowledge, you would be better of dumb.
If you feel devistation because of something someone else it is your duty as a Christian, as a human being to speak up, call out and demand an explanation.
Guilt you should know is your own, can not be given or received, guilt is owned, dont think for a momnet it can be shared, pity those who would try so hard as to not feel their entire weight by putting it somewhere else.
Pity and calm that which cant bare their own witness.
You sound like my kind of Christian. (take it as a compliment, not all of Christ is a curse, just those who would enforce 'it.)

This has been a real pleasure, thank you for your company.

---------- Post added 02-21-2010 at 11:53 AM ----------

Emil;130013 wrote:
Careful. Even muslims consider Jesus to be special (a prophet of a kind). Going with the number cited on Wiki, christians together with muslims make up at best (2.1+1.3)*10^9 = 3.4*10^9 people. The world's total population is according to Wiki is 6.8*10^9 people. (3.4*10^9)/(6.8*10^9) is 0.5, that is, at least half the world's population think that Jesus is special. (This is assuming that all christians and all muslims do so. That seem to be a fair assumption.) Then we can add all the people that are not christians or muslims but still think that Jesus was special. I have no idea about that number but it is not 0. It is, I suspect a fair amount. So that adds up in total to at least half the worlds population (using highest estimates etc.) plus the loose. It may be the case that the majority of the world's population think that Jesus is special, though perhaps not as special as christians think he is.

Dont forget the Buddhists Christ. Or the Hindu Christ.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 06:23 am
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;130675 wrote:
What is evidence in the face of the majority? Really? it may sound like a joke, but what is a truth other than the most living it?


The truth is not dependent upon the observer. That is why I disagreed with you about beauty, I think it is beautiful even without the observer. It has to be, or else there is no truth at all.

sometime sun;130675 wrote:

Some one must be wrong, better just the one man on his own than a whole mass, equaliy alone but pretending not to be? That was a joke, a sad one.


Id rather be without truth, than to fool myself into a truth I knew was a lie.

sometime sun;130675 wrote:

And all truths MUST be revisited, to think we have even the whole 'picture' yet is an arogance beyond delusion, but may be some form of conviction so sadly let it slide?


The whole picture is necessary to make a complete understanding of it, however you don't have to reveal the entire picture to know when you don't like it for the bits you have already seen.

sometime sun;130675 wrote:

Nothing is true forever?
And yet some things grow more true with the understanding experience of said truth, more even than what 'truth' is supposed to be.


Or a cleverly disguised ruse called a truth.

sometime sun;130675 wrote:

Wonder away, one day you may have to take up arms.
Wouldn't you prefer to know how to shoot straight than just how not to be shot at?


I differ on this. Id rather not learn to shoot straight. Call me a coward, call me a wimp, it wouldn't change my outlook. I think it is stronger not to place one's own life above another's even if you despise the existence of the person. There will come a day when no one will be aiming at you, yet you will fall, so what good is learning to shoot straight?

sometime sun;130675 wrote:

Alternative salvation, when i am working so hard for what i can barely recognise as my own.
But sure salvation came from a man once, why not from you also?


You really don't believe this, you even state it later that you don't. This is just something you hope but you really don't actually believe it.

sometime sun;130675 wrote:

Just for that good measure i know, believe you werent evil form birth, you own owe nothing to anyone but that which you have done or given.
I did not enslave you, why do you want demand (for it is not a need) relieve an apology from someone who never even wronged you, is putting more wrong on me, wrong that is not mine to bare, not yours to burden me with, take your guilt mongering elsewhere, i do not believe you. You are giving me false relief, and although confused i know relief is not a belief.
(this may not have made sense to anyone but me)


No one need to be blamed. I say there is no blame to begin with, so why would I place it upon you? Just like foot prints don't stain, all actions are null and void. Only those who want to blame because they need to be blamed to feel a purpose will find it necessary.

sometime sun;130675 wrote:

To be human is to doubt, no sacrifice comes without price.
Sacrifice is not free, it is ultimate price, paid and then some.
Jesus paid his price, ultimate price, self doubt, which is why in the first place we go running to God.
Self doubt is the curse of free will, you cant have one without the other.
You would not be free if you did not know there was a prison. ?


The existence of a prison is not required for me to be or know I am free. However; I should probably add that there is no actual freedom, it is only a relative term anyways. Jesus paid the ultimate price eh? How so, for a few minutes of suffering? Isn't he sitting on the throne now, showered by flowers and grapes? Doesn't really seem like all that big of a price if heaven was the pay off. A few minutes of suffering is nothing. How about toss him into the fires for eternity so that humans could be free from sin? That would be the ultimate price.

sometime sun;130675 wrote:

Self proclamation is for wimps, do your best to prove something to me and respect is due, give me something i can shout from the roof tops, dont tell me to be quiet.
I dont know how one can have such a blessing as faith and not want to probe it, to caress it, to study it and bring it to some climax.
You cant make love to yourself.


Tease. I know of no one that meets your qualification, the first, not the later. If you say they do, then they shout lies. Oh I guess you can't shout lies can you?

sometime sun;130675 wrote:

Not quite, but dear fellow i am leaving it up to, you will get there, this is closer than the previous.


There are only two possibilities. You can't have a negative belief or a non-belief belief. They cancel each other. Sure you can write that you are not a non-believer of gremlins but it actually makes you then a believer. You can't believe in something and at the same time not believe in it.

sometime sun;130675 wrote:

Did i profess anything was possible?
Utility is possibly where we all go wrong, we expect to much for not giving or preparing enough, you will know when enough is enough, it will be done, thy will for Christs sake will be done. (whoops) make sure you are worth your sacrifice.


You mean like selling your soul to feed the homeless? Because that would be a much worthier cause.

sometime sun;130675 wrote:
Guilt you should know is your own, can not be given or received, guilt is owned, dont think for a momnet it can be shared."


Remember that thing I mentioned a little bit ago about you not believing what you actually wrote. Well the above statement is the evidence for it. You say that guilt can not be shared? Well then if guilt can not be shared then no one can relieve you of your guilt. Jesus therefore could not relieve you of your guilt. The sacrifice would have no effect.
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 02:23 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;130660 wrote:
I'm pretty good at keeping track. Unless you are finding it tedious or pointless?
Well then by all means let us continue Smile

Krumple;130660 wrote:
But he ultimately decides what sin is. He makes the law, and that makes him give rise to the existence of it. If he doesn't set any rules or any law what-so-ever, there can be no sin at all. So he is the creater because he put the rule into place.
See this is part of where I think our disagreement arises. Does God decide what sin is or is sin ordained by doing something apart from God? If you contend that God decides what sin is by deciding what we ought to do thereby allotting for something we ought not do then ,yes, God decides what sin is. But is that really the proper way to look at it? I think not. Sin as defined in the bible is anything apart from faith. What that means to me is that anything that we do which is not ordained by God is sin. So in this respect we see that God only decides what is good. By choosing not to do what is good we ourselves fall into sin. Can you at least see what I'm getting at here because I think this is a pretty big distinction towards the argument from my point of view?

Krumple;130660 wrote:
That's the irony here, I do take responsibility for my actions. I do not try to impose a situation where I can do bad things and ask an invisible being for forgiveness and get a reward for it. I only have myself to blame, I have only myself to account to, and I have to live with my actions. I do not pass the blame onto anyone other than myself when they are my actions. So I am not sure where you are getting this idea from. I don't even believe in god, so why would I pass the blame onto something that doesn't even exist?
Well if that's true then great. You should have no problem understanding how it is not God's fault that things have gone awry so to speak but ours.


Krumple;130660 wrote:
Although this for the most part is true, you can fathom non-existence. You just have to take all that we experience and cancel it. That would be non-existence. You wouldn't see anything, hear anything, taste anything, feel anything, smell anything or think anything. You wouldn't even be aware of non-existence. There I just did it.
lol, congrats. Though I see the words I still can't fathom it, for by thinking about it I have turned nothing into something. This is why I think it is unintelligible to speak about non-existence.


Krumple;130660 wrote:
Alright, then he can not have a divine plan nor could prayer be useful. If he can not infringe on free will then he would not be able to have a plan for your life because that plan would dictate how your life unfolded. Then on top of that prayer would be useless as well because it would infringe on free will.
Oh He most certainly has a divine plan by manipulating the situations. There is a quote I've heard that kind of gets to the point of my opinion on the matter, "It is up to God whether I find myself in a world in which I am predestined; But it is up to me whether I am predestined in the world in which I find myself." The point being that for any given desire of God, (since he is all knowing)if a situation exists in which we will freely choose that desire, God need only to put us in that situation.

A movie I saw one time called "Sliding Doors" kind of illustrates what I mean(william lane craig has mentioned this movie before but for a different purpose). The movie basically shows a lady who is on her way home from work and is trying to catch a subway train; at this point the movie diverges into two different realities: one in which she makes it onto the train and the other where she misses the train. Her life then takes very different turns as a result. All these very minute things add up to create the two divergent timelines but the point as I am trying to make it is that God may very well have the ability to manipulate non free willed things in such a way as to place us in the given situations of His choice. Thus accomplishing His divine plan.

In terms of prayer I will only offer a few things. First, we must remember that prayer is not necessary in order for God to know our needs and desires. Aquinas says that we have personal vocal prayer for three reasons: firstly, to stimulate the interior devotion, by which the mind of him praying is raised to God. Secondly, vocal prayer is used as the repaying of debt, so that man may serve God with all that he has received from God, that is, not only in mind, but also in body. And Thirdly, prayer is used from a kind redundancy of the soul on the body, from its vehement affection where he quotes Psalms where it says "my heart made merry, and my tongue rejoiced.

He goes on to say that one of the effects of prayer is that it brings about a certain spiritual refreshment of mind.

Aquinas simply believed that through prayer we work to sort out what role we will play as secondary agents in God's primary purposes. Prayer is not telling God what we think, or simply thanking him for food and drink. Rather it is our active, intentional effort to understand what God is doing and how we can join him. Thus through prayer we become co-participators with God. God's will sets everything in motion.

He also states that we do not pray to change divine decree, but only to obtain what God has decided will be obtained through prayer.

So we can see here that there are sufficient reasons for not abandoning prayer even if it does not change anything.

Krumple;130660 wrote:
It would be as simple as not setting any rules at all. If there are no rules then by that very definition there can be no punishment for anything done. So by creating rules as you have stated he would have inadvertently created the punishment. His rescue attempt is silly, just like if I dug a hole and then tried to tell people walking by to watch their step. If I had never dug the hole in the first place there would be no danger of falling in to begin with.
Well as I stated I think upon closer inspection it is not by rule at all that such a place exist but necessity. The necessity of the need for a realm separate from God which sin could be. No sin=no Hell. This is why I stated a rescue attempt is needed. Because it is logically necessary that such a place exists, God's only angle of attack was to rescue people from it rather than abolish its existence.

Krumple;130660 wrote:
Okay, but if you are the teacher telling me left, why are you telling me to go left? Is it for me, or for you? If there was no need to turn at all, then going left or right wouldn't matter. Therefore there is nothing be taught here at all. It is a dictation of expected behavior. Do this or else.
I can see where you're coming from however, I disagree. First, I think it's important to note that left and right already existed with neither direction seemingly correct or wrong until God ordained which way was correct. But, If God really does love us it would seem His duty to try and direct us in the best possible path. Now, having said that, it must be the case that, in order to exhibit free will with respect to God, a choice must exist which is contradictory to God's desire. This choice by its very nature is sin. If God wishes to direct us in the best possible path then in doing so all the paths in which He doesn't direct us would become sin. This makes me think about the Euthyphro Dilemma, certainty a topic worth its own thread, which asks ,"Are morally good acts willed by God because they are morally good, or are they morally good because they are willed by God?" IMO the answer is the latter.


Krumple;130660 wrote:
I don't hold your idea here myself. I do not think love is worth dying for. I also don't think free will is required for love to arise. You can actually get it without free choice. How do I know, and you will refuse to believe me until I say it. When you fall in love, it is not something you can prevent, it just happens without you willing it to happen. Therefore it is beyond free will. Hate me now? Because I'll ruin love for you.
If love is not worth dying for what is? Some people contend there is not such thing as "love at first sight" only LUST at first sight. Love implies self sacrifice for a relationship to last. I contend that true love can only develop out of choice. We must be willing to sacrifice for the sake of staying together. Now it may be that we the person we love we lusted for at first sight however true love did not develop until some point later IMO. No sir I could never hate you. I am no expert on love either so take what I say with a grain of salt. However I know without a doubt in my mind that I would die for the people I really love.


Krumple;130660 wrote:
I do not believe in free will. It is a construct, and does not reveal itself in reality, at least in no way that I can see.
well while I cant refute it per say I can only state that there are many many reason that I feel given sufficient cause for believing we have free will.

For example, I may something like:
-I either have free will or I don't
-If I don't have free will, then I can't make the wrong choice regarding free will(since I'm not really making any choice)
-If I do have free will, then I make the wrong choice if and only if I choose not to believe in free will
-Therefore it follows the only course of action is to believe in free will, since the only way to make the wrong choice is to not believe in it.

or Kants argument
(Ax. 1)we accept morality on intuitive grounds
(P1)morality implies rationality
(P2)rationality implies free will
(C)From (Ax. 1), (P1), and (P2), we conclude free will

And many others.
0 Replies
 
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 04:37 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;130682 wrote:
The truth is not dependent upon the observer. That is why I disagreed with you about beauty, I think it is beautiful even without the observer. It has to be, or else there is no truth at all.

Beauty is still judgement, so whos not judging?
I do hope what you say is true, because it is sertainly a better outlook than my own, and i do to some degree believe what you say, but that although no man knows or is in the presence of beauty, God always is, so beauty even without that which judges is still beautiful.
Hes got the whole world in his hands.


Krumple;130682 wrote:

Id rather be without truth, than to fool myself into a truth I knew was a lie.
No-one really believes in lies, if you think you do you are called delusional not truthful.


Krumple;130682 wrote:

The whole picture is necessary to make a complete understanding of it, however you don't have to reveal the entire picture to know when you don't like it for the bits you have already seen.

No what i meant was that a picture shared or not will be different each time you vist it, you will notice a new stroke of colour, a crack in the paint even finaly realise what the title of the piece is for.

Krumple;130682 wrote:

Or a cleverly disguised ruse called a truth.

You cant disguise truth.

Krumple;130682 wrote:

I differ on this. Id rather not learn to shoot straight. Call me a coward, call me a wimp, it wouldn't change my outlook. I think it is stronger not to place one's own life above another's even if you despise the existence of the person. There will come a day when no one will be aiming at you, yet you will fall, so what good is learning to shoot straight?

You are not placing your life above anything, you are making sure no-one places themselves above you.
What goiod is it to leanr for? So no-one can push me over and make me fall.
Sure i will fall, very few have the right to push people over, very few.

Krumple;130682 wrote:

You really don't believe this, you even state it later that you don't. This is just something you hope but you really don't actually believe it.

If you are going to say i dont or cant do something please tell me why i cant dont or wont.
We must find our own salvation, and i'm looking right at you.
I would say you are the one who does not believe that they can do so.
Christ being told that he will come back, who is to say Christ wouldn't know he was Christ until the time came to prove to us his name was not Krumple.
I find Christ in many different places, and i'm looking right at you.
Krumple;130682 wrote:

No one need to be blamed. I say there is no blame to begin with, so why would I place it upon you? Just like foot prints don't stain, all actions are null and void. Only those who want to blame because they need to be blamed to feel a purpose will find it necessary.

Agreed blame can be counter productive, we think by finding the faulty we find the guilty, this is not always the case.
Can you only blame someone who feels no guilt?

Krumple;130682 wrote:

The existence of a prison is not required for me to be or know I am free. However; I should probably add that there is no actual freedom, it is only a relative term anyways. Jesus paid the ultimate price eh? How so, for a few minutes of suffering? Isn't he sitting on the throne now, showered by flowers and grapes? Doesn't really seem like all that big of a price if heaven was the pay off. A few minutes of suffering is nothing. How about toss him into the fires for eternity so that humans could be free from sin? That would be the ultimate price.

Agreed freedom cant be anything else it is not freedom anymore.
He dies for our sins, Jesus Christ does not just get to die once, he dies everytime we sin and ask for his forgiveness.
Jesus suffers through us.
We dont do Him Justice.
But that is an interesting use of price when being damned to hell.
You go to hell because you have stolen, not because you have given, those who go to hell have only just begun to understand what 'price' truly means.
And to go to hell means you have sinned and not found resurrection, not found forgiveness, why should Jesus have to pay the price of a sin he was incapable of sinning.

Krumple;130682 wrote:

Tease. I know of no one that meets your qualification, the first, not the later. If you say they do, then they shout lies. Oh I guess you can't shout lies can you?

Only the deaf shout lies.
Truth does not need to be planned.
Truth does not need to prove itslef, truth is itslef.
But i think i get what you are saying, that to have anything to speak of one must have words of truth.
Proclamtion is lying to tell the truth?

Krumple;130682 wrote:

There are only two possibilities. You can't have a negative belief or a non-belief belief. They cancel each other. Sure you can write that you are not a non-believer of gremlins but it actually makes you then a believer. You can't believe in something and at the same time not believe in it.

I will make it simpler but i feel i have lost something by doing so,
I do not believe what i believe because someone told me to believe, they may have shown me and proven it to me, bu ti dont do soemthing just because I am told to do so, i dont not do something because someone has told me not to do something. I dont do it because i know i dont want or need to. Know it, dont blow it.

Krumple;130682 wrote:

You mean like selling your soul to feed the homeless? Because that would be a much worthier cause.

Your soul cant be sold, not even sure you can give it away, you wouldn't suffer in hell if you still didn't have your soul,
the seat of all suffering is your soul. the seat of all soul is your suffering.
It does do other things though

Krumple;130682 wrote:

Remember that thing I mentioned a little bit ago about you not believing what you actually wrote. Well the above statement is the evidence for it. You say that guilt can not be shared? Well then if guilt can not be shared then no one can relieve you of your guilt. Jesus therefore could not relieve you of your guilt. The sacrifice would have no effect.

Guilt CANT be shared, can it be gifted?
Jesus cant relieve me of my guilt, why would God do such as thing?
Only i can lift my own weight.
Guilt although when abused and forced upon people is wrong, guilt is still necessary, it is judgement that you can doubt not guilt.
Guilt is not proclamation either.
Guilt is something you find you must speak of but can never expect to be heard.
Shame is what keeps us quiet.
Guilt although possibly never elieviated must be exposed to let air get to the wound, you cant heal if you dont treat the wound.
Shame is possibly the scar tissue?
But guilt is still and always will be necessary.
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 06:57 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;130072 wrote:
The supposed words of Jesus:

Matthew 10:[INDENT][INDENT]34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.[/INDENT][/INDENT]Luke 12:[INDENT][INDENT] 51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.[/INDENT][/INDENT]Luke 14:26[INDENT][INDENT]If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
[/INDENT][/INDENT]There are others, but I think the above is enough to make the point. The idea that Jesus is all about peace and love is the purest BS. It is just a propaganda lie that many Christians put forth, without regard to what is actually stated in the Bible. Jesus is about hate and division. Just read his own words.

Mt 10:34 God has come to direct us not evolove us.

Mt 10:35 Look up varience.

Mt 10:36 A mans foes are his comforts, better to go out intot he world be uncomfortable but find more who are willing to free you.

Lk 12:51 Got to learn to be apart before we can learn to be together.
Supposition of God is not good.

Lk 12:52 Children are not their parents, parents are not thier children.

Lk 12:53 Love has no law. We cannot live the lives of someone else, we divide ourselves by seeing oursleves as someone elses something.
We are more than just for something/someone elses sake.
Cold and hard, but we cannot be a mother if we judge ourselves as only thus.
We are more than our position.

Lk 14:26 If you dont see their is something wrong then you can never change it.

What do you think disciple means?

Jesus is not about hate and division, there is a gulf, there is a threat, Jesus does not just put you in the deep end without having the lesson available to learn how to swim.
You cant swim unless you know the waters, and not all water is fresh.
Know it dont blow it.

---------- Post added 02-22-2010 at 01:25 AM ----------

MMP2506;130086 wrote:
It is vastly misinterpreted and is now looked at as series of irrational myths that can only be understood through a modern objective standpoint.

Which is why we needed in the first place and still the minister and their like

---------- Post added 02-22-2010 at 01:33 AM ----------

Arjuna;130130 wrote:
Sure. Or you could get naked and dance around. I don't think it matters. It just seems weird to go all that way just to preach. But then, this forum isn't exactly a trip to the Amazon.

Let's all preach!!!

Synchronistically, I've been listening to CCR everyday on the way to work for the last month.

Thank you and what is CCR?

---------- Post added 02-22-2010 at 01:40 AM ----------

Pyrrho;130132 wrote:
Which is to say, that it really is a lie to say that Jesus is all about love.

Truth is love.
Lie is hate.
The way to truths is not always lovely.
The way to lies is not always hateful.
Just because it makes us uncomfortabvle does not mean we should stop looking for the truth.
Just as because it makes us comfortable does not mean we should start looking for the lie.

---------- Post added 02-22-2010 at 01:45 AM ----------

TickTockMan;130134 wrote:

I've never understood the whole Missionary gig.

Whats not to understand? You are working for something other than just your self. Missionary need not be a religious word or meaning, even if to be a missionary means you are religious in your actions.
I hope this is what you are doing right now.
I hope you are not here just for yourself.
Proving work ethic before ethics.
Good missionaries anyway...

---------- Post added 02-22-2010 at 01:51 AM ----------

Krumple;130140 wrote:
Missionaries in my opinion are for cultural genocide. They go in, and reform the tribes, and peoples of their small communities to adopt their religious beliefs. It ultimately destroys their traditional way of life or makes them lose a part of their native traditions. Some will try to incorporate old traditions but the missionaries know that once you plant the seed it is only a matter of time before you get total cultural reform. It's wrong, and they know it is wrong but it is all in the name of ignorance.

If you want to be part of this world you need a religion? is this what you are saying they are saying?

---------- Post added 02-22-2010 at 01:57 AM ----------

YouTube - Seasons In The Sun - Terry Jacks 1974

YouTube - Nirvana - Seasons In The Sun
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 08:14 am
@sometime sun,
Loved the Song...And it are only an interpretation of Yezus' words. Why you selectively use the Biblia if there are many more sources of wisdom from this period?
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 10:47 am
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;130821 wrote:
Beauty is still judgement, so whos not judging?


I still think that beauty is subjective, I am just saying that beauty itself is not dependent upon the observer. There is a distinction here. Just like I don't share your outlook on god.

sometime sun;130821 wrote:

I do hope what you say is true, because it is sertainly a better outlook than my own, and i do to some degree believe what you say, but that although no man knows or is in the presence of beauty, God always is, so beauty even without that which judges is still beautiful.
Hes got the whole world in his hands.


I don't see how you come to the conclusion that you do. From my perspective, god is a tyrant, a five year old that has the ability to destroy when ever he feels like it. That he will toss a perfectly good being into the trash bin for not believing in his evasive existence.

sometime sun;130821 wrote:

No-one really believes in lies, if you think you do you are called delusional not truthful.


Well if they are under the notion that what they believe is true, then by all means they could technically be believing a lie. I could lie to you and if you trusted me, you would believe that what I told you was true. That would mean you believe in a lie.

sometime sun;130821 wrote:

No what i meant was that a picture shared or not will be different each time you vist it, you will notice a new stroke of colour, a crack in the paint even finaly realise what the title of the piece is for.


Yeah you are right, getting a fresh look at something can give you new insight. But it can also make you not like it more too. Sometimes the more you investigate, the worse the conclusion becomes.

sometime sun;130821 wrote:

You cant disguise truth.


True, but you can hide it within a cleverly disguised lie.

sometime sun;130821 wrote:

You are not placing your life above anything, you are making sure no-one places themselves above you.


Yeah but shooting them only places yourself above them.

sometime sun;130821 wrote:
Sure i will fall, very few have the right to push people over, very few.


Well I don't think anyone has the right to push you over, unless you give them permission to push you over.

sometime sun;130821 wrote:

If you are going to say i dont or cant do something please tell me why i cant dont or wont.


I wasn't trying to say you couldn't do something. I was just stating an observation that I noticed. From my perspective you said something and then later said something else that I saw contradict it, so I felt you didn't really believe what you had actually written.

sometime sun;130821 wrote:

We must find our own salvation, and i'm looking right at you.
I would say you are the one who does not believe that they can do so.
Christ being told that he will come back, who is to say Christ wouldn't know he was Christ until the time came to prove to us his name was not Krumple.
I find Christ in many different places, and i'm looking right at you.


I don't think you would notice him. No one would. As soon as he spoke, he would be institutionalized. Everyone thinks he will have some blazing fire in his eyes and a stainless white robe on. Flowing golden blond hair that waves gently even if there is no breeze. Golden tan flawless skin that glistens in the always sunny sky where ever he goes it never rains. Birds are always singing even if it's midnight. Flower bloom and the sent is always fresh and clean. Babies never cry in his presence. The people would always be smiling as if they were on morphine drips. His teeth perfectly aligned and white as pearls. His voice booms like a finely tuned bass guitar but it doesn't disturb the ears to listen. Butterflies always accompany him where ever he goes, even if into a lake to bathe. Water flowing off of him will make muddy stones glisten and sparkle. All creepy crawly insects and critters immediately transform into cute bunnies and more appealing things. When he steps in mud it transforms into solid pure dirt rich in minerals that any seed planted there would flourish for thousands of years and impossible to uproot.

sometime sun;130821 wrote:

Agreed blame can be counter productive, we think by finding the faulty we find the guilty, this is not always the case.
Can you only blame someone who feels no guilt?


What about if there is nothing to be guilty for? Should we find them to blame?

sometime sun;130821 wrote:

Agreed freedom cant be anything else it is not freedom anymore.
He dies for our sins, Jesus Christ does not just get to die once, he dies everytime we sin and ask for his forgiveness.


What exactly does that mean, he dies every time? Um he would die every single millisecond then. What exactly does he experience? Chest pain, cardiac arrest? Choking? Slowly fades out of consciousness? What exactly do you mean?

sometime sun;130821 wrote:

Jesus suffers through us.
We dont do Him Justice.


What exactly does he suffer? The same torment you will receive in the recycling bin? Or is that when he cuts you free?

sometime sun;130821 wrote:

But that is an interesting use of price when being damned to hell.
You go to hell because you have stolen, not because you have given, those who go to hell have only just begun to understand what 'price' truly means.
And to go to hell means you have sinned and not found resurrection, not found forgiveness, why should Jesus have to pay the price of a sin he was incapable of sinning.


If anyone ends up in hell, then by all means send me there too. Id rather suffer with them even if I have done nothing to deserve to end up there. No being, what so ever should end up there no matter what they have done. Not child molesters, serial killers or rapists or politicians. No one. So if anyone is there, then by all means send me to. I would not want to be in heaven if even a single being was not allowed to be there too. I don't care if you say, they are sending themselves there, it does not matter to me why they would end up there, send me too then if they are going to hell.

sometime sun;130821 wrote:

Only the deaf shout lies.
Truth does not need to be planned.
Truth does not need to prove itslef, truth is itslef.
But i think i get what you are saying, that to have anything to speak of one must have words of truth.
Proclamtion is lying to tell the truth?


Yeah, but even worse when someone lies calling something truth when it is not.

sometime sun;130821 wrote:

I will make it simpler but i feel i have lost something by doing so,
I do not believe what i believe because someone told me to believe, they may have shown me and proven it to me, bu ti dont do soemthing just because I am told to do so, i dont not do something because someone has told me not to do something. I dont do it because i know i dont want or need to. Know it, dont blow it.


Alright. But could you be convinced that you are the one making the choice when beyond your knowledge or noticing, that you were influenced to make the choice you made? A sort of unacknowledged mentally suggested choice?

sometime sun;130821 wrote:

Your soul cant be sold, not even sure you can give it away, you wouldn't suffer in hell if you still didn't have your soul,
the seat of all suffering is your soul. the seat of all soul is your suffering.
It does do other things though


I guess if the soul is the seat of suffering, we just need destroy the soul and suffering would end. Can the soul be destroyed?

sometime sun;130821 wrote:

Guilt CANT be shared, can it be gifted?
Jesus cant relieve me of my guilt, why would God do such as thing?
Only i can lift my own weight.
Guilt although when abused and forced upon people is wrong, guilt is still necessary, it is judgement that you can doubt not guilt.
Guilt is not proclamation either.
Guilt is something you find you must speak of but can never expect to be heard.
Shame is what keeps us quiet.
Guilt although possibly never elieviated must be exposed to let air get to the wound, you cant heal if you dont treat the wound.
Shame is possibly the scar tissue?
But guilt is still and always will be necessary.


I was saying more along the lines of guilty of a crime rather than the guilt of shame.

If you are accused of a crime, in which you had no part in, but someone shows up and pardons you of that crime but you must accept them doing so before it counts as a pardon, is that a fair requirement? You never committed the crime, so why should you apologize for committing the crime? You don't need to be pardoned if you are innocent.

I say you are calling yourself guilty of a crime in which you were not apart of, and believe that you require pardon. You believe that the pardon has worked and now you are free. But I am coming along and saying, you were free from the beginning, that was all just a hoax.
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 06:57 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;131029 wrote:
I still think that beauty is subjective, I am just saying that beauty itself is not dependent upon the observer. There is a distinction here. Just like I don't share your outlook on god.

You dont share my outlook (i think you and i would both be surprised how much we do share, remember it is not our differences that bring us together even if they could and should, it is our beauty and as you have said beauty is both subjective and almost eveywhere we just cant see it all the time) but you are still willing to believe it is a possiblity, at least you are willing to allow me mine own vision, you believe it is wrong for you but you do not believe i believe it is worong for me, even when you ask me to prove it all you are doing is asking me to prove myself more to myself, we teach to know as much as learn to not know. Your willingness for me to be strengthend by your inquiry even if it weakens your is a very beautiful thing to do. Even if one thinks soemthing is ugly they should not treat it as anything other than beautiful. Or at the least able to become so.
Subjectivity is sight, right? so anyhting you see (or dont) is beautiful.
Which is why i could never say to you i dont believe you because all you are doing is giving me the access to prove myself even further. You can learn more from what you already know, just as you can teach more from what you dont.
Nothing is not beautiful.

Krumple;131029 wrote:

I don't see how you come to the conclusion that you do. From my perspective, god is a tyrant, a five year old that has the ability to destroy when ever he feels like it. That he will toss a perfectly good being into the trash bin for not believing in his evasive existence.

Whos the judge?
Maybe God doesn't, maybe that is our job. We are after all the crime unto ourselves. But are we after all the punishment? The only pain we cause God is when we ask for His forgiveness?
God throws nothing away. Nothing is ever lost.(but that which does not want to be found)
Hell or the trash bin God does not put you there, you do.
People can throw themselves away.
It is not God doing the throwing away, it is man disposing man.
Who ever told you God does this is wrong, God must give us every chance, God really needs us.
Begs the question can you ask for forgiveness whilst being punished? you are still conected to your body in hell even if made up of different stuffs (hell is made eternal body without the need for soul, instead of eternal soul without the need for body) but i jump ahead.
Krumple;131029 wrote:

Well if they are under the notion that what they believe is true, then by all means they could technically be believing a lie. I could lie to you and if you trusted me, you would believe that what I told you was true. That would mean you believe in a lie.

Still means that most of the world is delusional, not truthful.
The world is run by madmen giving birth to better men at being mad. Lies are easy to live by, truth is hard. Easy as in available. Hard as in hidden.
I could trust you, but as long as I dont trust myself i will not question you, i will question myself.
Krumple;131029 wrote:

Yeah you are right, getting a fresh look at something can give you new insight. But it can also make you not like it more too. Sometimes the more you investigate, the worse the conclusion becomes.

Truth is not always 'nice' and the more we look and investigate something the more lie we will have to battle just so as to see straight, but may always be beautiful? Can a lie be beautiful? That is what the word glamour is used for. A truth once observed may never be anyhting less than perfection, which means the world being as imperfect as it is means the world lives on lies, the human and 'unnatural' world anyway.
Truth is only hard to find because we have blinded ourselves.
I dont think one can dispute that nature is beautiful, no matter how terrible it is, all it does is tell the truth.
Nature does not lie, human nature does, which means the lie may be to be human is a lie?
One reason we liken ourselves to animals, because although we may htink we are diminishing our selves, we are shrinking in order to become true and beautiful once more, fit into the space truth made, not the vacume the created. People are terrible liars, animals and nature does not do this.
Krumple;131029 wrote:

True, but you can hide it within a cleverly disguised lie.


Truth is always there you just cant see it. We live by truth and we still dont know the all what keeps us alive.
Krumple;131029 wrote:

Yeah but shooting them only places yourself above them.

Can you give up your place by trying to take from another?
You cant take it from something else but you sure can give it away.

Krumple;131029 wrote:

Well I don't think anyone has the right to push you over, unless you give them permission to push you over.

Sometimes we need a good push?
However far we fall is up to where we were pushed from.
Where we think we stand.
Krumple;131029 wrote:

I wasn't trying to say you couldn't do something. I was just stating an observation that I noticed. From my perspective you said something and then later said something else that I saw contradict it, so I felt you didn't really believe what you had actually written.

No worries, sometimes i dont believe all what i say, but sometimes i have to say all what i believe. The only proof i have is my conviction.
Please if i ever do contradict myself, shine a light on it that i will have to explain myself.
We let ourselves get away with far to much.
You are welcome.

Krumple;131029 wrote:

I don't think you would notice him. No one would. As soon as he spoke, he would be institutionalized. Everyone thinks he will have some blazing fire in his eyes and a stainless white robe on. Flowing golden blond hair that waves gently even if there is no breeze. Golden tan flawless skin that glistens in the always sunny sky where ever he goes it never rains. Birds are always singing even if it's midnight. Flower bloom and the sent is always fresh and clean. Babies never cry in his presence. The people would always be smiling as if they were on morphine drips. His teeth perfectly aligned and white as pearls. His voice booms like a finely tuned bass guitar but it doesn't disturb the ears to listen. Butterflies always accompany him where ever he goes, even if into a lake to bathe. Water flowing off of him will make muddy stones glisten and sparkle. All creepy crawly insects and critters immediately transform into cute bunnies and more appealing things. When he steps in mud it transforms into solid pure dirt rich in minerals that any seed planted there would flourish for thousands of years and impossible to uproot.

You dont think the God of all that is could avoid a section?
I like this. At least your fantasy of what good God could be in good health.
Reminded me of this film;YouTube - Princess Mononoke Trailer
YouTube - Princess Mononoke - Iris
YouTube - Princess Mononoke
Notice from the first the God of the forest, when Its foot touches the ground new life shoots forth.
Krumple;131029 wrote:

What about if there is nothing to be guilty for? Should we find them to blame?

You can blame the good for being good?

Krumple;131029 wrote:

What exactly does that mean, he dies every time? Um he would die every single millisecond then. What exactly does he experience? Chest pain, cardiac arrest? Choking? Slowly fades out of consciousness? What exactly do you mean?

What do you experience when you know you have done wrong?
What do you experience when you know you have tried to do right?
The last needed sacrifice means it never will end, not until that which was sacrificed for ends.
It means what it says, every time we wish to be forgiven and ask for forgiveness the karma needs to be rebalanced, something has been dealt something has been stolen without price being paid, He could pay that price, he dies so we should be forgiven. He dies so we need not suffer.
Maybe when we all die so does God?

Krumple;131029 wrote:

What exactly does he suffer? The same torment you will receive in the recycling bin? Or is that when he cuts you free?

He suffers the sin, when we sin we are not just sinning against one person or a crowd or a country we are sinning against God and for us to be forgiven means he must experience the sin from both the sinner and sinned against.
You would not want to put God through your sin so why do it in the first place?
People are horrible creatures when they are remembered for their horribleness, one person is much the same becuase they are not you, the horrible make it easy to sin against, God is not horrible, God is hard becuase God must be, God has to put up with alot.
Can you imagine what the Parent of a serial killer goes through? (not to mention what the killer must)
God is our father and mother, and when your real ones let you down you still need the love and respect for a parent to be part of your being, we still need to know that when we hurt we hurt more a person we hurt parents. Just as knowing we still have a parent means we will always be loved,
maybe this is why the world 'invented' God, the need for a good parent. We all need it.
Some sin is made without choice, do these have less of an impact when Jesus would have to relive and clean out these gutters?
Krumple;131029 wrote:

If anyone ends up in hell, then by all means send me there too. Id rather suffer with them even if I have done nothing to deserve to end up there. No being, what so ever should end up there no matter what they have done. Not child molesters, serial killers or rapists or politicians. No one. So if anyone is there, then by all means send me to. I would not want to be in heaven if even a single being was not allowed to be there too. I don't care if you say, they are sending themselves there, it does not matter to me why they would end up there, send me too then if they are going to hell.
I think this is beautiful, what a good outlook what a eutopia you have in mind and heart.
The point is you dont know what is right with out knowing what is wrong.
And you cant know something is wrong without there being a consequence.
We are born to bite, it is our parent who teachs us otherwise. The only indication that we are born to be good is that we are born to love. But we do still bite. And as long as you dont know what it is you are doing, you dont know you are hurting you are not sinning.
All knowledge is built to stop sinning.
We learn to know we are wrong.
Krumple;131029 wrote:

Alright. But could you be convinced that you are the one making the choice when beyond your knowledge or noticing, that you were influenced to make the choice you made? A sort of unacknowledged mentally suggested choice?

Sure i could, sure i still am, one reason i limit my influences.
Is ignorance preferable to bad influence?
Is a bad friend better than none?
Krumple;131029 wrote:

I guess if the soul is the seat of suffering, we just need destroy the soul and suffering would end. Can the soul be destroyed?

Can the soul be destroyed?
a question i have worked on is, what if you chose to end your existence, what if you chose to end your soul? Is it possible, and do we if we cannot destroy ourselves, do we ever have full ownership of what it is that makes us up?
If i cant kill myself, i cant live myself?

Krumple;131029 wrote:

I was saying more along the lines of guilty of a crime rather than the guilt of shame.

If you are accused of a crime, in which you had no part in, but someone shows up and pardons you of that crime but you must accept them doing so before it counts as a pardon, is that a fair requirement? You never committed the crime, so why should you apologize for committing the crime? You don't need to be pardoned if you are innocent.

I say you are calling yourself guilty of a crime in which you were not apart of, and believe that you require pardon. You believe that the pardon has worked and now you are free. But I am coming along and saying, you were free from the beginning, that was all just a hoax.

Must we accept we need to be forgiven before we can be so? God cannot forgive if you dont ask for it? Why not? Why must i ask? because you will know then thet you have wronged and that ther eis need for cleansing.
What if you do not need to be forgiven? no but you are in some sense forgiving them for their error.
Must we be forced to forgive?
Forced to accept forgiveness as what it is that will make us whole, again?
This is where judgement is corruptable, where justice is a foriegn body not the seat of your souls freedom.
You will always be free, it is not your fault they dont know it. Yet.
If all else fails become a martyr.
0 Replies
 
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 02:16 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;129615 wrote:
The closest Being to God is Jesus, who I think, reflects the very the nature and attributes of the one true God. He always spoke how he loved the "Great Spirit namely; the "Holy Father Spirit".

Jesus never referred to god as as Yahweh, the wrathful God of the Old Testament , he always spoke about his "Father in heaven" , and he emphasized that we are potentially gods in our own right

Wikipeda

Jesus presented a view of God as more lovingly parental, merciful, and more forgiving, and the growth of a belief in a blissful afterlife and in the resurrection of the dead.

His teachings promoted the value of those who had commonly been regarded as inferior: women, the poor, ethnic outsiders, children, prostitutes, the sick, prisoners, etc. For over a thousand years, countless hospitals, orphanages, and schools have been founded explicitly in Jesus' name.

Thomas Jefferson considered Jesus' teachings to be "the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man".

What do you think?
It's simple.

If you have a goverment in peace time, they act 1 way.
In times of war, they act in another way.
In times of anarchy and rito, they act in a 3rd way.

It's all like in the bible, very different and apparently selfcontradicting ways, but Imo it's a product of it's time and the 3 conditions which I mentioned.
0 Replies
 
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 02:21 am
@Alan McDougall,
I always thought that when god told the israelites not to call him yahweh, or any other name, he was really saying "Hey wake up, I won't fit in your box" but nobody listened
0 Replies
 
 

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