The words of Jesus compared to that of the Old Testament

There is only one truth though. Either aliens did crash, or they didn't crash in New Mexico desert. Both of those can not be true. I am saying there must be a truth, and the truth you are offering me does not hold to what I see as evidence. Therefore the truth must be revisited and that is what I am doing.

Is it necessary? I wonder.

I am not sure what you are actually requesting from me here. That you want an alternative salvation? If you are asking for that, I can not provide it, but not because I don't have one to offer, but instead I don't feel one is necessary in the first place. I am not evil by birth, nor are the wrongs of my ancestors my fault, therefore I am not to blame for what they have done or not done. Therefore I have nothing to apologize for or atone for.

I still see him as a victim. If he knew what he was about to do, that he was going to be the reliever of all humanity, why would he at the last few minutes leading up to it, request council? He asks god why he has been forsaken. This does not mesh with him sacrificing himself in a positive tone. If I knew that I could relieve this world's suffering by my death I would gladly go through with the worse and most painful of deaths if necessary for that to happen. I wouldn't be seeking council before it, I'd gladly step to it, but he doesn't and that is telling.

[/COLOR]When I make a statement like no one questions something, I do not mean it isn't questioned. I am implying that to those who give it merit or credit have not questioned it. Like I have mentioned before, only ten percent of actual proclaimed Christians have actually read the bible. That fact points out something else, that they do not investigate their faith, they instead just accept what ever is handed to them.

A little bit of a double negative here. Can I cancel out both negatives? Will you allow me to do that? Because that is what double negatives do. So if I do that and rewrite your sentence it becomes;

"I believe in them because i am told not to if that is what you are driving at."

I think you might want to rephrase the statement or else I am left in confusion for what you meant by not believing in gremlins. Or should I just assume that you believe they could exist even though you have never seen one?

I don't have that ability because I have tried to utilize it and it did not do as you profess is possible.

Can I admit I laughed a little from what you said here? Although not laughing at you, just how you said it.

I understand the power of belief. I understand that it can be useful in positive ways, but also it can be used in negative ways. My only concern is that we utilize understanding within reality to function within reality, so why is it necessary to use something outside reality to effect reality? When those who believe in something outside reality, to use against me, to impose their guilt onto me, it becomes something harmful to me. This is what I feel causes devastation onto the world just like if someone were polluting a stream with motor oil. I of course want them to stop and will say something to point out the harm they are causing.

Careful. Even muslims consider Jesus to be special (a prophet of a kind). Going with the number cited on Wiki, christians together with muslims make up at best (2.1+1.3)*10^9 = 3.4*10^9 people. The world's total population is according to Wiki is 6.8*10^9 people. (3.4*10^9)/(6.8*10^9) is 0.5, that is, at least half the world's population think that Jesus is special. (This is assuming that all christians and all muslims do so. That seem to be a fair assumption.) Then we can add all the people that are not christians or muslims but still think that Jesus was special. I have no idea about that number but it is not 0. It is, I suspect a fair amount. So that adds up in total to at least half the worlds population (using highest estimates etc.) plus the loose. It may be the case that the majority of the world's population think that Jesus is special, though perhaps not as special as christians think he is.

What is evidence in the face of the majority? Really? it may sound like a joke, but what is a truth other than the most living it?

Some one must be wrong, better just the one man on his own than a whole mass, equaliy alone but pretending not to be? That was a joke, a sad one.

And all truths MUST be revisited, to think we have even the whole 'picture' yet is an arogance beyond delusion, but may be some form of conviction so sadly let it slide?

Nothing is true forever?
And yet some things grow more true with the understanding experience of said truth, more even than what 'truth' is supposed to be.

Wonder away, one day you may have to take up arms.
Wouldn't you prefer to know how to shoot straight than just how not to be shot at?

Alternative salvation, when i am working so hard for what i can barely recognise as my own.
But sure salvation came from a man once, why not from you also?

Just for that good measure i know, believe you werent evil form birth, you own owe nothing to anyone but that which you have done or given.
I did not enslave you, why do you want demand (for it is not a need) relieve an apology from someone who never even wronged you, is putting more wrong on me, wrong that is not mine to bare, not yours to burden me with, take your guilt mongering elsewhere, i do not believe you. You are giving me false relief, and although confused i know relief is not a belief.
(this may not have made sense to anyone but me)

To be human is to doubt, no sacrifice comes without price.
Sacrifice is not free, it is ultimate price, paid and then some.
Jesus paid his price, ultimate price, self doubt, which is why in the first place we go running to God.
Self doubt is the curse of free will, you cant have one without the other.
You would not be free if you did not know there was a prison. ?

Self proclamation is for wimps, do your best to prove something to me and respect is due, give me something i can shout from the roof tops, dont tell me to be quiet.
I dont know how one can have such a blessing as faith and not want to probe it, to caress it, to study it and bring it to some climax.
You cant make love to yourself.

Not quite, but dear fellow i am leaving it up to, you will get there, this is closer than the previous.

Did i profess anything was possible?
Utility is possibly where we all go wrong, we expect to much for not giving or preparing enough, you will know when enough is enough, it will be done, thy will for Christs sake will be done. (whoops) make sure you are worth your sacrifice.

Guilt you should know is your own, can not be given or received, guilt is owned, dont think for a momnet it can be shared."

I'm pretty good at keeping track. Unless you are finding it tedious or pointless?

But he ultimately decides what sin is. He makes the law, and that makes him give rise to the existence of it. If he doesn't set any rules or any law what-so-ever, there can be no sin at all. So he is the creater because he put the rule into place.

That's the irony here, I do take responsibility for my actions. I do not try to impose a situation where I can do bad things and ask an invisible being for forgiveness and get a reward for it. I only have myself to blame, I have only myself to account to, and I have to live with my actions. I do not pass the blame onto anyone other than myself when they are my actions. So I am not sure where you are getting this idea from. I don't even believe in god, so why would I pass the blame onto something that doesn't even exist?

Although this for the most part is true, you can fathom non-existence. You just have to take all that we experience and cancel it. That would be non-existence. You wouldn't see anything, hear anything, taste anything, feel anything, smell anything or think anything. You wouldn't even be aware of non-existence. There I just did it.

Alright, then he can not have a divine plan nor could prayer be useful. If he can not infringe on free will then he would not be able to have a plan for your life because that plan would dictate how your life unfolded. Then on top of that prayer would be useless as well because it would infringe on free will.

It would be as simple as not setting any rules at all. If there are no rules then by that very definition there can be no punishment for anything done. So by creating rules as you have stated he would have inadvertently created the punishment. His rescue attempt is silly, just like if I dug a hole and then tried to tell people walking by to watch their step. If I had never dug the hole in the first place there would be no danger of falling in to begin with.

Okay, but if you are the teacher telling me left, why are you telling me to go left? Is it for me, or for you? If there was no need to turn at all, then going left or right wouldn't matter. Therefore there is nothing be taught here at all. It is a dictation of expected behavior. Do this or else.

I don't hold your idea here myself. I do not think love is worth dying for. I also don't think free will is required for love to arise. You can actually get it without free choice. How do I know, and you will refuse to believe me until I say it. When you fall in love, it is not something you can prevent, it just happens without you willing it to happen. Therefore it is beyond free will. Hate me now? Because I'll ruin love for you.

I do not believe in free will. It is a construct, and does not reveal itself in reality, at least in no way that I can see.

The truth is not dependent upon the observer. That is why I disagreed with you about beauty, I think it is beautiful even without the observer. It has to be, or else there is no truth at all.

Id rather be without truth, than to fool myself into a truth I knew was a lie.

The whole picture is necessary to make a complete understanding of it, however you don't have to reveal the entire picture to know when you don't like it for the bits you have already seen.

Or a cleverly disguised ruse called a truth.

I differ on this. Id rather not learn to shoot straight. Call me a coward, call me a wimp, it wouldn't change my outlook. I think it is stronger not to place one's own life above another's even if you despise the existence of the person. There will come a day when no one will be aiming at you, yet you will fall, so what good is learning to shoot straight?

You really don't believe this, you even state it later that you don't. This is just something you hope but you really don't actually believe it.

No one need to be blamed. I say there is no blame to begin with, so why would I place it upon you? Just like foot prints don't stain, all actions are null and void. Only those who want to blame because they need to be blamed to feel a purpose will find it necessary.

The existence of a prison is not required for me to be or know I am free. However; I should probably add that there is no actual freedom, it is only a relative term anyways. Jesus paid the ultimate price eh? How so, for a few minutes of suffering? Isn't he sitting on the throne now, showered by flowers and grapes? Doesn't really seem like all that big of a price if heaven was the pay off. A few minutes of suffering is nothing. How about toss him into the fires for eternity so that humans could be free from sin? That would be the ultimate price.

Tease. I know of no one that meets your qualification, the first, not the later. If you say they do, then they shout lies. Oh I guess you can't shout lies can you?

There are only two possibilities. You can't have a negative belief or a non-belief belief. They cancel each other. Sure you can write that you are not a non-believer of gremlins but it actually makes you then a believer. You can't believe in something and at the same time not believe in it.

You mean like selling your soul to feed the homeless? Because that would be a much worthier cause.

Remember that thing I mentioned a little bit ago about you not believing what you actually wrote. Well the above statement is the evidence for it. You say that guilt can not be shared? Well then if guilt can not be shared then no one can relieve you of your guilt. Jesus therefore could not relieve you of your guilt. The sacrifice would have no effect.

The supposed words of Jesus:

Matthew 10:[INDENT][INDENT]34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.[/INDENT][/INDENT]Luke 12:[INDENT][INDENT] 51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.[/INDENT][/INDENT]Luke 14:26[INDENT][INDENT]If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
[/INDENT][/INDENT]There are others, but I think the above is enough to make the point. The idea that Jesus is all about peace and love is the purest BS. It is just a propaganda lie that many Christians put forth, without regard to what is actually stated in the Bible. Jesus is about hate and division. Just read his own words.

It is vastly misinterpreted and is now looked at as series of irrational myths that can only be understood through a modern objective standpoint.

Sure. Or you could get naked and dance around. I don't think it matters. It just seems weird to go all that way just to preach. But then, this forum isn't exactly a trip to the Amazon.

Let's all preach!!!

Synchronistically, I've been listening to CCR everyday on the way to work for the last month.

Which is to say, that it really is a lie to say that Jesus is all about love.

I've never understood the whole Missionary gig.

Missionaries in my opinion are for cultural genocide. They go in, and reform the tribes, and peoples of their small communities to adopt their religious beliefs. It ultimately destroys their traditional way of life or makes them lose a part of their native traditions. Some will try to incorporate old traditions but the missionaries know that once you plant the seed it is only a matter of time before you get total cultural reform. It's wrong, and they know it is wrong but it is all in the name of ignorance.

Beauty is still judgement, so whos not judging?

I do hope what you say is true, because it is sertainly a better outlook than my own, and i do to some degree believe what you say, but that although no man knows or is in the presence of beauty, God always is, so beauty even without that which judges is still beautiful.
Hes got the whole world in his hands.

No-one really believes in lies, if you think you do you are called delusional not truthful.

No what i meant was that a picture shared or not will be different each time you vist it, you will notice a new stroke of colour, a crack in the paint even finaly realise what the title of the piece is for.

You cant disguise truth.

You are not placing your life above anything, you are making sure no-one places themselves above you.

Sure i will fall, very few have the right to push people over, very few.

If you are going to say i dont or cant do something please tell me why i cant dont or wont.

We must find our own salvation, and i'm looking right at you.
I would say you are the one who does not believe that they can do so.
Christ being told that he will come back, who is to say Christ wouldn't know he was Christ until the time came to prove to us his name was not Krumple.
I find Christ in many different places, and i'm looking right at you.

Agreed blame can be counter productive, we think by finding the faulty we find the guilty, this is not always the case.
Can you only blame someone who feels no guilt?

Agreed freedom cant be anything else it is not freedom anymore.
He dies for our sins, Jesus Christ does not just get to die once, he dies everytime we sin and ask for his forgiveness.

Jesus suffers through us.
We dont do Him Justice.

But that is an interesting use of price when being damned to hell.
You go to hell because you have stolen, not because you have given, those who go to hell have only just begun to understand what 'price' truly means.
And to go to hell means you have sinned and not found resurrection, not found forgiveness, why should Jesus have to pay the price of a sin he was incapable of sinning.

Only the deaf shout lies.
Truth does not need to be planned.
Truth does not need to prove itslef, truth is itslef.
But i think i get what you are saying, that to have anything to speak of one must have words of truth.
Proclamtion is lying to tell the truth?

I will make it simpler but i feel i have lost something by doing so,
I do not believe what i believe because someone told me to believe, they may have shown me and proven it to me, bu ti dont do soemthing just because I am told to do so, i dont not do something because someone has told me not to do something. I dont do it because i know i dont want or need to. Know it, dont blow it.

Your soul cant be sold, not even sure you can give it away, you wouldn't suffer in hell if you still didn't have your soul,
the seat of all suffering is your soul. the seat of all soul is your suffering.
It does do other things though

Guilt CANT be shared, can it be gifted?
Jesus cant relieve me of my guilt, why would God do such as thing?
Only i can lift my own weight.
Guilt although when abused and forced upon people is wrong, guilt is still necessary, it is judgement that you can doubt not guilt.
Guilt is not proclamation either.
Guilt is something you find you must speak of but can never expect to be heard.
Shame is what keeps us quiet.
Guilt although possibly never elieviated must be exposed to let air get to the wound, you cant heal if you dont treat the wound.
Shame is possibly the scar tissue?
But guilt is still and always will be necessary.

I still think that beauty is subjective, I am just saying that beauty itself is not dependent upon the observer. There is a distinction here. Just like I don't share your outlook on god.

I don't see how you come to the conclusion that you do. From my perspective, god is a tyrant, a five year old that has the ability to destroy when ever he feels like it. That he will toss a perfectly good being into the trash bin for not believing in his evasive existence.

Well if they are under the notion that what they believe is true, then by all means they could technically be believing a lie. I could lie to you and if you trusted me, you would believe that what I told you was true. That would mean you believe in a lie.

Yeah you are right, getting a fresh look at something can give you new insight. But it can also make you not like it more too. Sometimes the more you investigate, the worse the conclusion becomes.

True, but you can hide it within a cleverly disguised lie.

Yeah but shooting them only places yourself above them.

Well I don't think anyone has the right to push you over, unless you give them permission to push you over.

I wasn't trying to say you couldn't do something. I was just stating an observation that I noticed. From my perspective you said something and then later said something else that I saw contradict it, so I felt you didn't really believe what you had actually written.

I don't think you would notice him. No one would. As soon as he spoke, he would be institutionalized. Everyone thinks he will have some blazing fire in his eyes and a stainless white robe on. Flowing golden blond hair that waves gently even if there is no breeze. Golden tan flawless skin that glistens in the always sunny sky where ever he goes it never rains. Birds are always singing even if it's midnight. Flower bloom and the sent is always fresh and clean. Babies never cry in his presence. The people would always be smiling as if they were on morphine drips. His teeth perfectly aligned and white as pearls. His voice booms like a finely tuned bass guitar but it doesn't disturb the ears to listen. Butterflies always accompany him where ever he goes, even if into a lake to bathe. Water flowing off of him will make muddy stones glisten and sparkle. All creepy crawly insects and critters immediately transform into cute bunnies and more appealing things. When he steps in mud it transforms into solid pure dirt rich in minerals that any seed planted there would flourish for thousands of years and impossible to uproot.

What about if there is nothing to be guilty for? Should we find them to blame?

What exactly does that mean, he dies every time? Um he would die every single millisecond then. What exactly does he experience? Chest pain, cardiac arrest? Choking? Slowly fades out of consciousness? What exactly do you mean?

What exactly does he suffer? The same torment you will receive in the recycling bin? Or is that when he cuts you free?

If anyone ends up in hell, then by all means send me there too. Id rather suffer with them even if I have done nothing to deserve to end up there. No being, what so ever should end up there no matter what they have done. Not child molesters, serial killers or rapists or politicians. No one. So if anyone is there, then by all means send me to. I would not want to be in heaven if even a single being was not allowed to be there too. I don't care if you say, they are sending themselves there, it does not matter to me why they would end up there, send me too then if they are going to hell.

Alright. But could you be convinced that you are the one making the choice when beyond your knowledge or noticing, that you were influenced to make the choice you made? A sort of unacknowledged mentally suggested choice?

I guess if the soul is the seat of suffering, we just need destroy the soul and suffering would end. Can the soul be destroyed?

I was saying more along the lines of guilty of a crime rather than the guilt of shame.

If you are accused of a crime, in which you had no part in, but someone shows up and pardons you of that crime but you must accept them doing so before it counts as a pardon, is that a fair requirement? You never committed the crime, so why should you apologize for committing the crime? You don't need to be pardoned if you are innocent.

I say you are calling yourself guilty of a crime in which you were not apart of, and believe that you require pardon. You believe that the pardon has worked and now you are free. But I am coming along and saying, you were free from the beginning, that was all just a hoax.

The closest Being to God is Jesus, who I think, reflects the very the nature and attributes of the one true God. He always spoke how he loved the "Great Spirit namely; the "Holy Father Spirit".

Jesus never referred to god as as Yahweh, the wrathful God of the Old Testament , he always spoke about his "Father in heaven" , and he emphasized that we are potentially gods in our own right

Wikipeda

Jesus presented a view of God as more lovingly parental, merciful, and more forgiving, and the growth of a belief in a blissful afterlife and in the resurrection of the dead.

His teachings promoted the value of those who had commonly been regarded as inferior: women, the poor, ethnic outsiders, children, prostitutes, the sick, prisoners, etc. For over a thousand years, countless hospitals, orphanages, and schools have been founded explicitly in Jesus' name.

Thomas Jefferson considered Jesus' teachings to be "the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man".

What do you think?