@Krumple,
Krumple;131029 wrote:I still think that beauty is subjective, I am just saying that beauty itself is not dependent upon the observer. There is a distinction here. Just like I don't share your outlook on god.
You dont share my outlook (i think you and i would both be surprised how much we do share, remember it is not our differences that bring us together even if they could and should, it is our beauty and as you have said beauty is both subjective and almost eveywhere we just cant see it all the time) but you are still willing to believe it is a possiblity, at least you are willing to allow me mine own vision, you believe it is wrong for you but you do not believe i believe it is worong for me, even when you ask me to prove it all you are doing is asking me to prove myself more to myself, we teach to know as much as learn to not know. Your willingness for me to be strengthend by your inquiry even if it weakens your is a very beautiful thing to do. Even if one thinks soemthing is ugly they should not treat it as anything other than beautiful. Or at the least able to become so.
Subjectivity is sight, right? so anyhting you see (or dont) is beautiful.
Which is why i could never say to you i dont believe you because all you are doing is giving me the access to prove myself even further. You can learn more from what you already know, just as you can teach more from what you dont.
Nothing is not beautiful.
Krumple;131029 wrote:
I don't see how you come to the conclusion that you do. From my perspective, god is a tyrant, a five year old that has the ability to destroy when ever he feels like it. That he will toss a perfectly good being into the trash bin for not believing in his evasive existence.
Whos the judge?
Maybe God doesn't, maybe that is our job. We are after all the crime unto ourselves. But are we after all the punishment? The only pain we cause God is when we ask for His forgiveness?
God throws nothing away. Nothing is ever lost.(but that which does not want to be found)
Hell or the trash bin God does not put you there, you do.
People can throw themselves away.
It is not God doing the throwing away, it is man disposing man.
Who ever told you God does this is wrong, God must give us every chance, God really needs us.
Begs the question can you ask for forgiveness whilst being punished? you are still conected to your body in hell even if made up of different stuffs (hell is made eternal body without the need for soul, instead of eternal soul without the need for body) but i jump ahead.
Krumple;131029 wrote:
Well if they are under the notion that what they believe is true, then by all means they could technically be believing a lie. I could lie to you and if you trusted me, you would believe that what I told you was true. That would mean you believe in a lie.
Still means that most of the world is delusional, not truthful.
The world is run by madmen giving birth to better men at being mad. Lies are easy to live by, truth is hard. Easy as in available. Hard as in hidden.
I could trust you, but as long as I dont trust myself i will not question you, i will question myself.
Krumple;131029 wrote:
Yeah you are right, getting a fresh look at something can give you new insight. But it can also make you not like it more too. Sometimes the more you investigate, the worse the conclusion becomes.
Truth is not always 'nice' and the more we look and investigate something the more lie we will have to battle just so as to see straight, but may always be beautiful? Can a lie be beautiful? That is what the word glamour is used for. A truth once observed may never be anyhting less than perfection, which means the world being as imperfect as it is means the world lives on lies, the human and 'unnatural' world anyway.
Truth is only hard to find because we have blinded ourselves.
I dont think one can dispute that nature is beautiful, no matter how terrible it is, all it does is tell the truth.
Nature does not lie, human nature does, which means the lie may be to be human is a lie?
One reason we liken ourselves to animals, because although we may htink we are diminishing our selves, we are shrinking in order to become true and beautiful once more, fit into the space truth made, not the vacume the created. People are terrible liars, animals and nature does not do this.
Krumple;131029 wrote:
True, but you can hide it within a cleverly disguised lie.
Truth is always there you just cant see it. We live by truth and we still dont know the all what keeps us alive.
Krumple;131029 wrote:
Yeah but shooting them only places yourself above them.
Can you give up your place by trying to take from another?
You cant take it from something else but you sure can give it away.
Krumple;131029 wrote:
Well I don't think anyone has the right to push you over, unless you give them permission to push you over.
Sometimes we need a good push?
However far we fall is up to where we were pushed from.
Where we think we stand.
Krumple;131029 wrote:
I wasn't trying to say you couldn't do something. I was just stating an observation that I noticed. From my perspective you said something and then later said something else that I saw contradict it, so I felt you didn't really believe what you had actually written.
No worries, sometimes i dont believe all what i say, but sometimes i have to say all what i believe. The only proof i have is my conviction.
Please if i ever do contradict myself, shine a light on it that i will have to explain myself.
We let ourselves get away with far to much.
You are welcome.
Krumple;131029 wrote:
I don't think you would notice him. No one would. As soon as he spoke, he would be institutionalized. Everyone thinks he will have some blazing fire in his eyes and a stainless white robe on. Flowing golden blond hair that waves gently even if there is no breeze. Golden tan flawless skin that glistens in the always sunny sky where ever he goes it never rains. Birds are always singing even if it's midnight. Flower bloom and the sent is always fresh and clean. Babies never cry in his presence. The people would always be smiling as if they were on morphine drips. His teeth perfectly aligned and white as pearls. His voice booms like a finely tuned bass guitar but it doesn't disturb the ears to listen. Butterflies always accompany him where ever he goes, even if into a lake to bathe. Water flowing off of him will make muddy stones glisten and sparkle. All creepy crawly insects and critters immediately transform into cute bunnies and more appealing things. When he steps in mud it transforms into solid pure dirt rich in minerals that any seed planted there would flourish for thousands of years and impossible to uproot.
You dont think the God of all that is could avoid a section?
I like this. At least your fantasy of what good God could be in good health.
Reminded me of this film;
YouTube - Princess Mononoke Trailer
YouTube - Princess Mononoke - Iris
YouTube - Princess Mononoke
Notice from the first the God of the forest, when Its foot touches the ground new life shoots forth.
Krumple;131029 wrote:
What about if there is nothing to be guilty for? Should we find them to blame?
You can blame the good for being good?
Krumple;131029 wrote:
What exactly does that mean, he dies every time? Um he would die every single millisecond then. What exactly does he experience? Chest pain, cardiac arrest? Choking? Slowly fades out of consciousness? What exactly do you mean?
What do you experience when you know you have done wrong?
What do you experience when you know you have tried to do right?
The last needed sacrifice means it never will end, not until that which was sacrificed for ends.
It means what it says, every time we wish to be forgiven and ask for forgiveness the karma needs to be rebalanced, something has been dealt something has been stolen without price being paid, He could pay that price, he dies so we should be forgiven. He dies so we need not suffer.
Maybe when we all die so does God?
Krumple;131029 wrote:
What exactly does he suffer? The same torment you will receive in the recycling bin? Or is that when he cuts you free?
He suffers the sin, when we sin we are not just sinning against one person or a crowd or a country we are sinning against God and for us to be forgiven means he must experience the sin from both the sinner and sinned against.
You would not want to put God through your sin so why do it in the first place?
People are horrible creatures when they are remembered for their horribleness, one person is much the same becuase they are not you, the horrible make it easy to sin against, God is not horrible, God is hard becuase God must be, God has to put up with alot.
Can you imagine what the Parent of a serial killer goes through? (not to mention what the killer must)
God is our father and mother, and when your real ones let you down you still need the love and respect for a parent to be part of your being, we still need to know that when we hurt we hurt more a person we hurt parents. Just as knowing we still have a parent means we will always be loved,
maybe this is why the world 'invented' God, the need for a good parent. We all need it.
Some sin is made without choice, do these have less of an impact when Jesus would have to relive and clean out these gutters?
Krumple;131029 wrote:
If anyone ends up in hell, then by all means send me there too. Id rather suffer with them even if I have done nothing to deserve to end up there. No being, what so ever should end up there no matter what they have done. Not child molesters, serial killers or rapists or politicians. No one. So if anyone is there, then by all means send me to. I would not want to be in heaven if even a single being was not allowed to be there too. I don't care if you say, they are sending themselves there, it does not matter to me why they would end up there, send me too then if they are going to hell.
I think this is beautiful, what a good outlook what a eutopia you have in mind and heart.
The point is you dont know what is right with out knowing what is wrong.
And you cant know something is wrong without there being a consequence.
We are born to bite, it is our parent who teachs us otherwise. The only indication that we are born to be good is that we are born to love. But we do still bite. And as long as you dont know what it is you are doing, you dont know you are hurting you are not sinning.
All knowledge is built to stop sinning.
We learn to know we are wrong.
Krumple;131029 wrote:
Alright. But could you be convinced that you are the one making the choice when beyond your knowledge or noticing, that you were influenced to make the choice you made? A sort of unacknowledged mentally suggested choice?
Sure i could, sure i still am, one reason i limit my influences.
Is ignorance preferable to bad influence?
Is a bad friend better than none?
Krumple;131029 wrote:
I guess if the soul is the seat of suffering, we just need destroy the soul and suffering would end. Can the soul be destroyed?
Can the soul be destroyed?
a question i have worked on is, what if you chose to end your existence, what if you chose to end your soul? Is it possible, and do we if we cannot destroy ourselves, do we ever have full ownership of what it is that makes us up?
If i cant kill myself, i cant live myself?
Krumple;131029 wrote:
I was saying more along the lines of guilty of a crime rather than the guilt of shame.
If you are accused of a crime, in which you had no part in, but someone shows up and pardons you of that crime but you must accept them doing so before it counts as a pardon, is that a fair requirement? You never committed the crime, so why should you apologize for committing the crime? You don't need to be pardoned if you are innocent.
I say you are calling yourself guilty of a crime in which you were not apart of, and believe that you require pardon. You believe that the pardon has worked and now you are free. But I am coming along and saying, you were free from the beginning, that was all just a hoax.
Must we accept we need to be forgiven before we can be so? God cannot forgive if you dont ask for it? Why not? Why must i ask? because you will know then thet you have wronged and that ther eis need for cleansing.
What if you do not need to be forgiven? no but you are in some sense forgiving them for their error.
Must we be forced to forgive?
Forced to accept forgiveness as what it is that will make us whole, again?
This is where judgement is corruptable, where justice is a foriegn body not the seat of your souls freedom.
You will always be free, it is not your fault they dont know it. Yet.
If all else fails become a martyr.