The words of Jesus compared to that of the Old Testament

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;129615 wrote:

The closest Being to God is Jesus, who I think, reflects the very the nature and attributes of the one true God. He always spoke how he loved the "Great Spirit namely; the "Holy Father Spirit".

Jesus never referred to god as as Yahweh, the wrathful God of the Old Testament , he always spoke about his "Father in heaven" , and he emphasized that we are potentially gods in our own right

Wikipeda

Jesus presented a view of God as more lovingly parental, merciful, and more forgiving, and the growth of a belief in a blissful afterlife and in the resurrection of the dead.

His teachings promoted the value of those who had commonly been regarded as inferior: women, the poor, ethnic outsiders, children, prostitutes, the sick, prisoners, etc. For over a thousand years, countless hospitals, orphanages, and schools have been founded explicitly in Jesus' name.

Thomas Jefferson considered Jesus' teachings to be "the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man".

What do you think?

Jesus is an invent, a mutilation of history to control people. Some of his sayings seem so intelligent and loving, but they are nothing more than common sense statements. Then there is the other half of what Jesus says that is not loving nor intelligent, but you completely ignore these comments, these statements. You only want to see and hear what you want to and ignore the whole picture.

You know early in the history of the church it was forbidden to translate the bible so the common person could understand it? People were killed for suggesting the idea, that the bible be more widely offered. How strange of a behavior, and why would they want to do such a thing? Because the church wanted a monopoly on what could be taught, what would be talked about, what could be studied. The best way to keep control is to maintain it without offering any investigative study. It is clear now, they were right, that if the bible were widely studied, it would reveal that it does not contain divine insight, but instead old world beliefs. Outdated knowledge that corrupts the minds of people who should know better.

3 Replies

@Krumple,

Krumple;129623 wrote:

Jesus is an invent, a mutilation of history to control people. Some of his sayings seem so intelligent and loving, but they are nothing more than common sense statements. Then there is the other half of what Jesus says that is not loving nor intelligent, but you completely ignore these comments, these statements. You only want to see and hear what you want to and ignore the whole picture.

You know early in the history of the church it was forbidden to translate the bible so the common person could understand it? People were killed for suggesting the idea, that the bible be more widely offered. How strange of a behavior, and why would they want to do such a thing? Because the church wanted a monopoly on what could be taught, what would be talked about, what could be studied. The best way to keep control is to maintain it without offering any investigative study. It is clear now, they were right, that if the bible were widely studied, it would reveal that it does not contain divine insight, but instead old world beliefs. Outdated knowledge that corrupts the minds of people who should know better.

It really pains me to read comments like yours altering the truth into a mutilation and a lie. Jesus was the most remarkable person who everto have walked the earth, it is not just I that believes that, billions do so also so maybe the majority is right and you are absolutely wrong

But I concur that his beautiful life and words have been twisted beyond recognition by so called experts for gain etc

2 Replies

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;129633 wrote:

It really pains me to read comments like yours altering the truth into a mutilation and a lie.

What exactly have I altered? What have I mutilated? I can't rewrite the work, I am using the work to point out the whole picture. The whole picture does not support this belief that jesus is love. You can't tell me that threatening a person with the sulfur fire or the pit, is a loving stance. It's not. How did I mutilate that? I say you are ignoring those lines because you don't want to face the reality that it does not support what you want to believe it does.

Alan McDougall;129633 wrote:

Jesus was the most remarkable person who everto have walked the earth, it is not just I that believes that, billions do so also so maybe the majority is right and you are absolutely wrong

There are millions who believe that aliens have abducted people. There are millions who believe that an alien space craft crashed in Roswell New Mexico. Does that make it true?

Alan McDougall;129633 wrote:

But I concur that his beautiful life and words have been twisted beyond recognition by so called experts for gain etc

Maybe I am mutilating again, but I believe that the impression you have of Jesus's life, is the made up part. All these things that you cherish about his life have been doctored. The whole point was to get you to fall in love with this character, because he is the ultimate good guy and youll defend him with even your own life. That is the selling point and it works. I am saying there are things in the bible that point out that some things just don't pan out. Want me to mutilate another example?

When Jesus was being led down the streets, with him dragging the cross on his back, where were his followers? You mean to tell me that every single one of them wimped out? This doesn't make any sense. Think about it. If what is written is true, then all those people that followed him would have placed their very existence in front of him. I know if I had witnessed just two or three of his miracles I would have been beating every guard I could before I was taken out. But not a single one placed themselves on the chopping block and that doesn't make any sense. So why don't you hear about them going to help him? Why no rescue attempt? Because that would have ruined the story. If you place any of the apolosles infront of him trying to save him from this sacrafice to come, it would have placed the apolsles above and beyond the hero of the story. They couldn't have that so you don't see it in the story. Since you don't see it in the story it points out that it is fabricated. It is fabricated because it does not depict true humanism. They should have been creating a riot to save Jesus, no sensable human would have let him suffer like that.

Even if you don't follow me on this here is one more aspect that could have happened. Let's say that they were scared to step in and save him because so many guards were around. All they had to do was wait until night, I can't imagine that they had hundreds of guards around the clock guarding the cross he was on. They could have plotted to sneak in and take him down without much notice. Or they could have propositioned some rich people and bribed the guards to turn their backs or take a break and taken him down. But you don't see this in the story because it would have ruined what the church wants you to believe. If jesus is rescued then he is the victim not the savior. But it defies the human pyschological behavior to allow someone you love to be sacraficed without doing something to help.

Yet no one, absolutely no one questions this or wonders why these followers didn't do anything, not a single person questions where they were. How could you sit by and allow this sort of thing to happen to someone that has taught you so much? Why? Because it's a made up lie.

2 Replies

@Krumple,

Krumple;129655 wrote:

What exactly have I altered? What have I mutilated? I can't rewrite the work, I am using the work to point out the whole picture. The whole picture does not support this belief that Jesus is love. You can't tell me that threatening a person with the sulfur fire or the pit, is a loving stance. It's not. How did I mutilate that? I say you are ignoring those lines because you don't want to face the reality that it does not support what you want to believe it does.

There are millions who believe that aliens have abducted people. There are millions who believe that an alien space craft crashed in Roswell New Mexico. Does that make it true?

Maybe I am mutilating again, but I believe that the impression you have of Jesus's life, is the made up part. All these things that you cherish about his life have been doctored. The whole point was to get you to fall in love with this character, because he is the ultimate good guy and youll defend him with even your own life. That is the selling point and it works. I am saying there are things in the bible that point out that some things just don't pan out. Want me to mutilate another example?

When Jesus was being led down the streets, with him dragging the cross on his back, where were his followers? You mean to tell me that every single one of them wimped out? This doesn't make any sense. Think about it. If what is written is true, then all those people that followed him would have placed their very existence in front of him. I know if I had witnessed just two or three of his miracles I would have been beating every guard I could before I was taken out. But not a single one placed themselves on the chopping block and that doesn't make any sense. So why don't you hear about them going to help him? Why no rescue attempt? Because that would have ruined the story. If you place any of the apolosles in front of him trying to save him from this sacrafice to come, it would have placed the apolsles above and beyond the hero of the story. They couldn't have that so you don't see it in the story. Since you don't see it in the story it points out that it is fabricated. It is fabricated because it does not depict true humanism. They should have been creating a riot to save Jesus, no sensable human would have let him suffer like that.

Even if you don't follow me on this here is one more aspect that could have happened. Let's say that they were scared to step in and save him because so many guards were around. All they had to do was wait until night, I can't imagine that they had hundreds of guards around the clock guarding the cross he was on. They could have plotted to sneak in and take him down without much notice. Or they could have propositioned some rich people and bribed the guards to turn their backs or take a break and taken him down. But you don't see this in the story because it would have ruined what the church wants you to believe. If Jesus is rescued then he is the victim not the savior. But it defies the human pyschological behavior to allow someone you love to be sacraficed without doing something to help.

Yet no one, absolutely no one questions this or wonders why these followers didn't do anything, not a single person questions where they were. How could you sit by and allow this sort of thing to happen to someone that has taught you so much? Why? Because it's a made up lie.

Not all his follows abandoned his like you wrongly stated, he spoke you his disciple John while in agony on the cross,. "John he said to John behold you mother" (Speaking about Mary his mother who was also at the foot of the cross) "Woman he said to Mary his mother behold your mother"

As for the others of his followers abandoning his yes they did, just like you and I might have done if we were faced with a similar horrific fate that their lord was undergoing.

Remember the Resurrection , after Jesus rose from the dead these very same people often layed down their lives in the thousands out of their love for him. Why the heck should they die in the thousands in Nero's lion dens if the whole event as nothing but a silly lie

You seem to get angry when the person of Jesus is brought up in a thread, why is this?? If the whole thing is nothing but a lie then it is the most enduring lie in all of human history

The original definition of skeptic was a person who questions ALL beliefs, facts, and points-of-view. A healthy perspective in my opinion. Today's common definition of skeptic is someone who questions any belief that strays outside of the status quo, yet leaving the status quo itself completely unquestioned. Kind of a juvenile and intellectually lazy practice in my opinion."

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;129633 wrote:

... Jesus was the most remarkable person who everto have walked the earth, it is not just I that believes that, billions do so also so maybe the majority is right and you are absolutely wrong

...

Three things:

The majority of the world is not Christian, so the majority does not believe what you say, so you are factually wrong about that. If the majority is to be believed, Jesus was not so very special.
More importantly, going with the majority as a method of determining the truth is fallacious reasoning, known as argumentum ad populum. Anyone taken in by such terribly bad "reasoning" desperately needs to take a good logic or critical thinking class.
Finally, Jesus was an idiot, as depicted in the Bible. Consider, for example, his being upset by a fig tree not bearing fruit when it was not the season for it to bear fruit. One would think that a god, who supposedly created such things, would know about what he has done, and not be upset that the things in the world are as he himself made them to be. Also, if he were really a miracle worker, he could have made it bear fruit if that is what he wanted, but he was too stupid to think of it, and made it whither (according to the story; see Matthew 21:18-19). Instead of being productive, he acted like a stupid child. And that is the wisest and best of men! Rather than enumerate all of Jesus' many manifest flaws and stupid remarks, I will provide a quote from Bertrand Russell:

[quote]Defects in Christ's Teaching

Having granted the excellence of these maxims, I come to certain points in which I do not believe that one can grant either the superlative wisdom or the superlative goodness of Christ as depicted in the Gospels; and here I may say that one is not concerned with the historical question. Historically it is quite doubtful whether Christ ever existed at all, and if He did we do not know anything about him, so that I am not concerned with the historical question, which is a very difficult one. I am concerned with Christ as He appears in the Gospels, taking the Gospel narrative as it stands, and there one does find some things that do not seem to be very wise. For one thing, he certainly thought that His second coming would occur in clouds of glory before the death of all the people who were living at that time. There are a great many texts that prove that. He says, for instance, "Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel till the Son of Man be come." Then he says, "There are some standing here which shall not taste death till the Son of Man comes into His kingdom"; and there are a lot of places where it is quite clear that He believed that His second coming would happen during the lifetime of many then living. That was the belief of His earlier followers, and it was the basis of a good deal of His moral teaching. When He said, "Take no thought for the morrow," and things of that sort, it was very largely because He thought that the second coming was going to be very soon, and that all ordinary mundane affairs did not count. I have, as a matter of fact, known some Christians who did believe that the second coming was imminent. I knew a parson who frightened his congregation terribly by telling them that the second coming was very imminent indeed, but they were much consoled when they found that he was planting trees in his garden. The early Christians did really believe it, and they did abstain from such things as planting trees in their gardens, because they did accept from Christ the belief that the second coming was imminent. In that respect, clearly He was not so wise as some other people have been, and He was certainly not superlatively wise.

The Moral Problem

Then you come to moral questions. There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. Christ certainly as depicted in the Gospels did believe in everlasting punishment, and one does find repeatedly a vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching -- an attitude which is not uncommon with preachers, but which does somewhat detract from superlative excellence. You do not, for instance find that attitude in Socrates. You find him quite bland and urbane toward the people who would not listen to him; and it is, to my mind, far more worthy of a sage to take that line than to take the line of indignation. You probably all remember the sorts of things that Socrates was saying when he was dying, and the sort of things that he generally did say to people who did not agree with him.

You will find that in the Gospels Christ said, "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of Hell." That was said to people who did not like His preaching. It is not really to my mind quite the best tone, and there are a great many of these things about Hell. There is, of course, the familiar text about the sin against the Holy Ghost: "Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven him neither in this World nor in the world to come." That text has caused an unspeakable amount of misery in the world, for all sorts of people have imagined that they have committed the sin against the Holy Ghost, and thought that it would not be forgiven them either in this world or in the world to come. I really do not think that a person with a proper degree of kindliness in his nature would have put fears and terrors of that sort into the world.

Then Christ says, "The Son of Man shall send forth his His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth"; and He goes on about the wailing and gnashing of teeth. It comes in one verse after another, and it is quite manifest to the reader that there is a certain pleasure in contemplating wailing and gnashing of teeth, or else it would not occur so often. Then you all, of course, remember about the sheep and the goats; how at the second coming He is going to divide the sheep from the goats, and He is going to say to the goats, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire." He continues, "And these shall go away into everlasting fire." Then He says again, "If thy hand offend thee, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into Hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched; where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched." He repeats that again and again also. I must say that I think all this doctrine, that hell-fire is a punishment for sin, is a doctrine of cruelty. It is a doctrine that put cruelty into the world and gave the world generations of cruel torture; and the Christ of the Gospels, if you could take Him asHis chroniclers represent Him, would certainly have to be considered partly responsible for that.

There are other things of less importance. There is the instance of the Gadarene swine, where it certainly was not very kind to the pigs to put the devils into them and make them rush down the hill into the sea. You must remember that He was omnipotent, and He could have made the devils simply go away; but He chose to send them into the pigs. Then there is the curious story of the fig tree, which always rather puzzled me. You remember what happened about the fig tree. "He was hungry; and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, He came if haply He might find anything thereon; and when He came to it He found nothing but leaves, for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it: 'No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever' . . . and Peter . . . saith unto Him: 'Master, behold the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.'" This is a very curious story, because it was not the right time of year for figs, and you really could not blame the tree. I cannot myself feel that either in the matter of wisdom or in the matter of virtue Christ stands quite as high as some other people known to history. I think I should put Buddha and Socrates above Him in those respects. [/quote]
Why I Am Not A Christian, by Bertrand Russell

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Pyrrho wrote:

The majority of the world is not Christian, so the majority does not believe what you say, so you are factually wrong about that. If the majority is to be believed, Jesus was not so very special.

Careful. Even muslims consider Jesus to be special (a prophet of a kind). Going with the number cited on Wiki, christians together with muslims make up at best (2.1+1.3)*10^9 = 3.4*10^9 people. The world's total population is according to Wiki is 6.8*10^9 people. (3.4*10^9)/(6.8*10^9) is 0.5, that is, at least half the world's population think that Jesus is special. (This is assuming that all christians and all muslims do so. That seem to be a fair assumption.) Then we can add all the people that are not christians or muslims but still think that Jesus was special. I have no idea about that number but it is not 0. It is, I suspect a fair amount. So that adds up in total to at least half the worlds population (using highest estimates etc.) plus the loose. It may be the case that the majority of the world's population think that Jesus is special, though perhaps not as special as christians think he is.

1 Reply

@Emil,

It always makes me wonder: if you went into the Amazon jungle and were honored by a tribal person with the telling of what's important to them spiritually, would you stop them and say: Hey! wait a minute: you're talking baloney! Nobody else on earth believes that!

But yes, Yahweh is often thought of as a ruthless desert god, more to be feared and bargained with than loved. Jesus' message is obviously about love. The point is well taken, though: the story of the thirsty rich man in Gehenna is a poser. It doesn't seem to mesh well with: Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who've sinned against us.

2 Replies

@Arjuna,

Arjuna;130039 wrote:

... Jesus' message is obviously about love. ...

The supposed words of Jesus:

Matthew 10:

[INDENT][INDENT]34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.[/INDENT][/INDENT]

Luke 12:

[INDENT][INDENT] 51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.[/INDENT][/INDENT]

Luke 14:26

[INDENT][INDENT]If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
[/INDENT][/INDENT]

There are others, but I think the above is enough to make the point. The idea that Jesus is all about peace and love is the purest BS. It is just a propaganda lie that many Christians put forth, without regard to what is actually stated in the Bible. Jesus is about hate and division. Just read his own words.

---------- Post added 02-19-2010 at 04:07 PM ----------

Emil;130013 wrote:

Careful. Even muslims consider Jesus to be special (a prophet of a kind). Going with the number cited on Wiki, christians together with muslims make up at best (2.1+1.3)*10^9 = 3.4*10^9 people. The world's total population is according to Wiki is 6.8*10^9 people. (3.4*10^9)/(6.8*10^9) is 0.5, that is, at least half the world's population think that Jesus is special. (This is assuming that all christians and all muslims do so. That seem to be a fair assumption.) Then we can add all the people that are not christians or muslims but still think that Jesus was special. I have no idea about that number but it is not 0. It is, I suspect a fair amount. So that adds up in total to at least half the worlds population (using highest estimates etc.) plus the loose. It may be the case that the majority of the world's population think that Jesus is special, though perhaps not as special as christians think he is.

You need to reread what I was responding to: "Jesus was the most remarkable person who everto have walked the earth". Muslims do not believe that, so your numbers are way off. This, however, is a trivial point, as I already mentioned, because it is useful only if one accepts fallacious reasoning known as argumentum ad populum, which is very poor reasoning indeed.

3 Replies

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;129615 wrote:

sidered Jesus' teachings to be "the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man".

What do you think?

If you look at his best passages, they are indeed sublime. But note that Jefferson wanted private property and individual rights. I think that Jesus is an ideal to be pursued privately, not legally enforced. By which I mean I don't trust communists, etc. I'm not saying that you were suggesting the ethics of Jesus be legally enforced. It's just that Jefferson says one thing and acts in a different way. Were Jefferson's politics were closer to the Old Testament than the New?

0 Replies

@Pyrrho,

Pyrrho;130072 wrote:

Jesus is about hate and division. Just read his own words.

You're 100% correct regarding 50% of the story. Looking into the context of the scriptures you quoted will go a long way to describing how Christianity was born out of the experience of Jews (especially starting around 170 BC.)

And I have read it.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Krumple;129623 wrote:

Some of his sayings seem so intelligent and loving, but they are nothing more than common sense statements.

Have you read the New Testament lately? He says some wild things now and then. Yes, much of it is "common sense" now, but not all of it.

---------- Post added 02-19-2010 at 04:18 PM ----------

Pyrrho;130005 wrote:

Why I Am Not A Christian, by Bertrand Russell

Bertrand Russell was sometimes not so sharp. I view Jesus as a symbolic figure. He's a puppet in whose mouth both wise words and foolish words have been stuffed. But the better uses of the Jesus myth in our Western culture have been great. Our cathedrals, many paintings, much great music.

I agree that there are plenty of idiots out there with the name of Jesus on their lips. But this applies to Nietzsche or Bukowksi or anyone famous.

I suppose we agree that the man wasn't supernatural. I'm not sure he ever lived, except in some brilliant, if flawed, books.

0 Replies

@Krumple,

Krumple;129623 wrote:

Jesus is an invent, a mutilation of history to control people. Some of his sayings seem so intelligent and loving, but they are nothing more than common sense statements. Then there is the other half of what Jesus says that is not loving nor intelligent, but you completely ignore these comments, these statements. You only want to see and hear what you want to and ignore the whole picture.

You know early in the history of the church it was forbidden to translate the bible so the common person could understand it? People were killed for suggesting the idea, that the bible be more widely offered. How strange of a behavior, and why would they want to do such a thing? Because the church wanted a monopoly on what could be taught, what would be talked about, what could be studied. The best way to keep control is to maintain it without offering any investigative study. It is clear now, they were right, that if the bible were widely studied, it would reveal that it does not contain divine insight, but instead old world beliefs. Outdated knowledge that corrupts the minds of people who should know better.

Jesus Christ is no more an invent then the very concept of God. His essence transcends Christianity and can be dated back as far as Thales of Miletus. The "whole picture" of Christianity is far greater than what you seem to be proposing.

I would suggest you look a bit into the roots of Christianity instead of judging based on what you learned about it from fundamentalists growing up. Don't allow the confused beliefs of many current Christian denominations tarnish the entire history of the theology.

The reason it was suggested that the Bible not be made more readily available is evident upon looking at what religion has become. It is vastly misinterpreted and is now looked at as series of irrational myths that can only be understood through a modern objective standpoint.

0 Replies

@Pyrrho,

Pyrrho;130072 wrote:

You need to reread what I was responding to: "Jesus was the most remarkable person who everto have walked the earth". Muslims do not believe that, so your numbers are way off. This, however, is a trivial point, as I already mentioned, because it is useful only if one accepts fallacious reasoning known as argumentum ad populum, which is very poor reasoning indeed.

I know what I was responding to. Your wording was different and it was your wording, not his, that I was responding to. Besides, I did not claim that you were wrong. Nothing is inconsistent in our two posts, I think.

And there are quite a few more of these stupid things Jesus said (if he existed and the New Testament are his recorded words etc.).

0 Replies

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;129863 wrote:

Not all his follows abandoned his like you wrongly stated, he spoke you his disciple John while in agony on the cross,. "John he said to John behold you mother" (Speaking about Mary his mother who was also at the foot of the cross) "Woman he said to Mary his mother behold your mother"

This is your rebuttal to what I stated? That they just stood around while he hung there? How is that coming to his aid? This is just more additive to make you sympathize more for him. It doesn't answer my question at all, not even in the least bit.

Alan McDougall;129863 wrote:

As for the others of his followers abandoning his yes they did, just like you and I might have done if we were faced with a similar horrific fate that their lord was undergoing.

See that is where you are wrong. Maybe you would have responded the way they did, I know for certain I wouldn't have. I know because I have been in a position to pardon a person who I knew was innocent despite what everyone else thought. I placed my life on it and would have continued to do so. So don't lump me into what you would have done to try and convince yourself that the apostles did as they naturally would have done. It's against human behavior that all of them would have abandoned him like that, if he was who the scripture says he was. It doesn't make any sense for them to do that. But to make the story work, they had to make the apostles abandon him or else there wouldn't have been a sacrifice. Normally we call these plot holes.

Alan McDougall;129863 wrote:

Remember the Resurrection , after Jesus rose from the dead these very same people often layed down their lives in the thousands out of their love for him. Why the heck should they die in the thousands in Nero's lion dens if the whole event as nothing but a silly lie

Oh so after wards is more important? Well of course you are going to get this after wards. I mean he was already killed, served his purpose, now they need to back it up by using the apostles again. If you really want to bring this up as your argument, I have another for you. Why would Thomas doubt the resurrection? Didn't he witness like three dozen miracles prior to Jesus being killed? It goes against reasoning to question such a miracle once he has witnessed so many other ones. Think about it. He brought people back to life and cured diseases. He spit in a guys face and cured his blindness, after witnessing that I would have believed anything he did or would have done. But no, Thomas still doubted. It goes against reasoning, Thomas is made up characteristic to provide again an uncertainty to get you to sympathize. Thomas's stand point does not logically make sense and apologists have struggled with this for a long time, with failure always being the result. The only way Thomas could realistically doubt the resurrection is if he was a complete idiot.

Alan McDougall;129863 wrote:

You seem to get angry when the person of Jesus is brought up in a thread, why is this?? If the whole thing is nothing but a lie then it is the most enduring lie in all of human history

Why would you think I'm angry? I'm not angry. Is this what you have to tell yourself, as a defensive stance against what I state? That if I am somehow angry that what I have to say is now less valid? Your rebuttals were extremely weak, and you go on the attack saying I'm angry? I find that funny and it lends support to what I have stated. You know what I have stated is true, but you refuse to accept it because it would mean reworking everything you have ever known, believed and invested. That price is just too high for you to pay so you defend it with anything even if it doesn't make sense.

0 Replies

@Arjuna,

Arjuna;130039 wrote:

It always makes me wonder: if you went into the Amazon jungle and were honored by a tribal person with the telling of what's important to them spiritually, would you stop them and say: Hey! wait a minute: you're talking baloney! Nobody else on earth believes that!

Why not? That's what the missionaries did (and still do), isn't it?

1 Reply

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;130128 wrote:

Why not? That's what the missionaries did (and still do), isn't it?

Sure. Or you could get naked and dance around. I don't think it matters. It just seems weird to go all that way just to preach. But then, this forum isn't exactly a trip to the Amazon.

Let's all preach!!!

Synchronistically, I've been listening to CCR everyday on the way to work for the last month.

1 Reply

@Arjuna,

Arjuna;130079 wrote:

You're 100% correct regarding 50% of the story. Looking into the context of the scriptures you quoted will go a long way to describing how Christianity was born out of the experience of Jews (especially starting around 170 BC.)

And I have read it.

Which is to say, that it really is a lie to say that Jesus is all about love.

This reminds me of something someone said to me many years ago, about the way people evangelize Christianity, telling people it is all about love and goodness, only to have the hate revealed later on. In business, this is called bait and switch.

---------- Post added 02-19-2010 at 07:21 PM ----------

Emil;130098 wrote:

I know what I was responding to. Your wording was different and it was your wording, not his, that I was responding to. Besides, I did not claim that you were wrong. Nothing is inconsistent in our two posts, I think.

And there are quite a few more of these stupid things Jesus said (if he existed and the New Testament are his recorded words etc.).

My wording was, "If the majority is to be believed, Jesus was not so [emphasis added] very special." This means, by my wording, that I was referring to Jesus being "the most remarkable person who everto have walked the earth". I never said anything about whether or not most people thought that Jesus was merely special or not.

0 Replies

@Arjuna,

Arjuna;130130 wrote:

Synchronistically, I've been listening to CCR everyday on the way to work for the last month.

I've had the Lodi line stuck in my head for about two days now.
I guess it's better than "Seasons in the Sun" though.
Cursed earworms!
Earworm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've never understood the whole Missionary gig.

1 Reply

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;130134 wrote:

I've never understood the whole Missionary gig.

Missionaries in my opinion are for cultural genocide. They go in, and reform the tribes, and peoples of their small communities to adopt their religious beliefs. It ultimately destroys their traditional way of life or makes them lose a part of their native traditions. Some will try to incorporate old traditions but the missionaries know that once you plant the seed it is only a matter of time before you get total cultural reform. It's wrong, and they know it is wrong but it is all in the name of ignorance.

1 Reply

The words of Jesus compared to that of the Old Testament

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