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In a total empty infinitely huge void could one move?

 
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 12:47 am
@xris,
XRIS

Quote:
I just read, that you need three items travelling at the speed of light to observe the speed of light being more than their combined speed. I will take your word for it but i still cant see light being able to travel faster than itself..and if light cant go faster how can the objects be seen to be travelling faster. I thought the time space continuum stops you going faster than light.Thanks xris.


XRIS


I think you are correct about the necessity for a third observer!


I know you might be familiar with a lot of what I mention below, but I have expanded on it to make what we are discussing a little easier for our many guests who don't participate but read our forum

OK xris just to end off, nothing that contains matter energy etc can exceed the speed of light, even one proton would become as massive as the whole universe if sufficient energy was applied to push right up to light speed


As I am sure you aware the faster an object moves the move massive it becomes, and the mass just increases exponentially the closer one gets to the light barrier. If it did the impossible and reached light speed it would have to exceed the mass of the whole universe

This does not apply to the "space time" fabric which "objects like galaxies, stars or quasars are "imbedded" into it. Think of trampoline rubber fabric; put a few hundred white dots on it to depict the galaxies of the universe. Then hypothetically stretch the rubber fabric (space time) in every direction, the dots (galaxies) on the fabric are now much further apart even thought they have not moved relative to each other "through the fabric of the rubber" ,they have "moved with the fabric"


This stretching of the fabric is what we call expansion of the universe or red shift and it has being going on since the time big bang and is accelerating all the time. Galaxies have not really moved "through the fabric of space time", they are moving with it

. But the speed of light barrier still applies to them and the expansion or stretch between then is calculated by the red shift factor. The red shift can or expansion is not retriced by the light speed barrier, Red shift is just a tool for calculating actual distance


Calculating the red shift of light gives up the real distance between these receding galaxies, but the galaxies can and are being stretched apart by the fabric of space time at greater than light speed and of course some are/have "become invisible" due to the fact that expansion at the remote edges of the universe has exceeded light speed.

The photons of the light from these exceedingly remote objects can no longer reach us because as they are being outrun by the expansion of the universe, beyond the observable limit. Something like a torch light that is too dim to observe from a distance, but this analogy it not perfect , because the photons from a torch could still be observed if we had a good enough telescope etc.

So some primordial objects from the early quasars epoch are not visible to even by our very best telescopes and are receding every faster into the darkness and cold of the outer universe

.

We do not know what really is out there beyond the observable limits and that is why we are always creating better and better telescopes to find out what exist out in the abysmal dark of our universe

There are a few theories how the universe will end and one of them known as the Big Rip is being discussed by astronomers, in this scenario the universe expansion accelerates almost up to infinity and everything down to the very fundamental is ripped apart and decays out of existence. Leaving the universe the cold dark totally empty void that I wanted to discuss in this thread
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 09:27 am
@Alan McDougall,
The point is Alan when is a void not something.Surely these galaxies that are expanding with the universe are part of the expansion not apart from it.I do see the universe like any explosion and the resulting effects it has on the debris of the explosion.The only difference i can see is there is no outside gravity effect to drag matter to some other arena.I can see when it has reached it explosive conclusion matter will eventually start grouping together into larger and larger amounts until it becomes a gigantic black hole with another singularity.The only argument against this theory is there is no evidence of this happening before.It might only be created for one journey, the engineer might only need this universe the once.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 09:15 pm
@xris,
hey XRIS


Quote:
The point is Alan when is a void not something.Surely these galaxies that are expanding with the universe are part of the expansion not apart from it.I do see the universe like any explosion and the resulting effects it has on the debris of the explosion.The only difference i can see is there is no outside gravity effect to drag matter to some other arena.I can see when it has reached it explosive conclusion matter will eventually start grouping together into larger and larger amounts until it becomes a gigantic black hole with another singularity.The only argument against this theory is there is no evidence of this happening before.It might only be created for one journey, the engineer might only need this universe the once.


xris I think your problem it that you might be thinking that space is nothing. This thread was about that impossible state. But it has happily diverged into this discussion due to you Smile

But space is decidely something, it is like some great fabric, that can bend , distort and merge on iteself given sufficient energy that is. And like a fabric it can and does carry objects with it, galaxies are just one of them




The universe is not an explosion that the term big bang so wrongly suggests. It is the emergence of the universe bringing with it everything. It did not explode into a vast empty void it brought the void or space time, matter and energy with it.

You are correct galaxies are expanding with the universe and are part of that expansion.

But galaxies do not travel through the fabric of space time, "they are carried" with it as space expands, with a few exception


As I mentioned before, galaxies like our milky way and the nearby (on cosmological terms) andromeda galaxy are caught up in each others gravity and they are approaching each other through the fabric of space, but like twins they are also grasp in the cosmologic of the universal gravity. These two galaxies can never exceed the light speed barrier through the fabric of space that they have to move to reach and merge with each other by their combined colossal gravity .

Think of yourself as Usain Bolt (the Olympic Games sprinter). When he ran his almost unimaginably fast sprint he was really moving through the fabric of space, If you put a hypothetical rocket of infinite energy to help him speed up to beyond light speed he would become infinitely massive

He was confined the relativity the speed light limit, but at the same moment he was running on earth, also restricted to light speed, BUT the whole earth galaxy was on a boat on the Mississippi river (space time)



This boat will always move relative to the flow (expansion of the universe) of the river and will stay relative to any other boat on the river UNLESS:


Unless two boats come close enough to one another that a grappling hook (gravity) can be used to pull them together against the flow of the river


Expansion of the universe means exactly that. Within galaxies or say you and I are not expanding, expansion of the entire universe does not affect us here on earth; we are not getting slowly larger and larger.

Here in our locality we move through the fabric of space, Like people on a giant space ship. The earth is being carried by our galaxy by the expansion of the whole universe, but this does not effect what happens to movement on earth


Nothing can exceed the speed of light THROUGH the fabric of space. Again

Heck XRIS you made me think a little here,
[RIGHT][RIGHT] [/RIGHT][/RIGHT]
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 04:15 am
@Alan McDougall,
Sorry i thought it was you that did not understand that when i say void it was different to nothing.You where putting this rocket in a void and it did not appear like a void as i understood the void of space.The only trouble i have with this imagining the universe as an expanding balloon, what lies within the balloon or how deep is this skin of the balloon? When we look back at the origins of the universe we are seeing the very beginnings, what lies beyond that view.I dont think cosmologist truly understand what they are viewing themselves let alone convey their knowledge to us.When certain cosmologist say because of our position in the universe we could be confused about its shape and it could either be a torus or even hunting horn shape,i have to say what will it be tomorrow?
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