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Is free will an illusion?

 
 
Abolitionist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 09:18 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
It also means that someone can go on some heinous orgy of looting and raping and claim that he had no control in the absence of free-will.


they still are held responsbile and prevented from doing the same again - but it would cause us to look at the conditions that created the behavior and try to prevent them as well
nameless
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2009 03:50 am
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas;41331 wrote:
The example of quantum mechanics as empirical evidence against determinism is pretty popular:
Determinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm sure a google search on the matter will yield a great deal of material.

Actually, QM shows the fallacy of empiricism as well as 'determinism' and 'causality'...
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2009 11:16 am
@Abolitionist,
Abolitionist;41367 wrote:
they still are held responsbile and prevented from doing the same again
They're not held responsible just because they constitute an involuntarily higher risk to people around them. Their punishment is based on their degree of volition (i.e. premeditation). That's why we differentiate manslaughter from murder, and differentiate degrees of each.

Quote:
but it would cause us to look at the conditions that created the behavior and try to prevent them as well
That applies whether or not you believe in free will.
Abolitionist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2009 11:28 am
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
They're not held responsible just because they constitute an involuntarily higher risk to people around them. Their punishment is based on their degree of volition (i.e. premeditation). That's why we differentiate manslaughter from murder, and differentiate degrees of each.

That applies whether or not you believe in free will.


we should determine punishment for the purpose of deterring crime

and not for retribution - some crimes are a greater threat to the rights of others

those who murder are different from those who perform manslaughter, those who murder are a greater threat all things being equal

if they have more volition involved they are judged to be a greater threat

that's why we need a re-evaluation of ethics, open to rational debate - to clarify the purpose and validity of laws

just because things are bad, doesn't mean they have to stay that way
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2009 12:28 pm
@Abolitionist,
I think that both of you make good points, but shouldn't we resolve whether or not their is a such thing as volitional free will to begin with?
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2009 10:12 pm
@hue-man,
The question, "do humans have free will?" begs the question, "what is free will?" In order the answer the first question, we first have to answer the second.

I hold that free will is a meaningless phrase except as a social construct and as the name for a feeling that we have. It is not a motive force that causes things. It is not any thing at all. Our actions are fixed in the same causal procession as all occurances. Free will understood as something which negates or vetos that causation would be 'magic.'
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 06:59 am
@nameless,
nameless wrote:
Actually, QM shows the fallacy of empiricism as well as 'determinism' and 'causality'...


Additionally it does not support free will.
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 08:03 am
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
Additionally it does not support free will.


Thanks for saying that. Quantum mechanics does not really support free will. I looked over it and it really doesn't; nor does it show that empiricism is a fallacy; in fact, quite the opposite. The only reason we know anything about quantum physics is because of the empirical method. In terms of free will, how can random resolutions of quantum level events provide people with any control over their behavior? Come on, be real.
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 11:24 am
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon wrote:
The question, "do humans have free will?" begs the question, "what is free will?" In order the answer the first question, we first have to answer the second.

I hold that free will is a meaningless phrase except as a social construct and as the name for a feeling that we have. It is not a motive force that causes things. It is not any thing at all. Our actions are fixed in the same causal procession as all occurances. Free will understood as something which negates or vetos that causation would be 'magic.'


I agree that if we seek to salvage the phrase it needs to be re-conceptualized. If it's not re-conceptualized, it needs to be discarded all together and replaced with something else; like intelligence, or the ability to rationalize, or knowing what's right and wrong, or being aware of the consequences of your actions.
0 Replies
 
nameless
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 04:48 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man;42603 wrote:
...nor does [QM] show that empiricism is a fallacy; in fact, quite the opposite. The only reason we know anything about quantum physics is because of the empirical method.

Oh no, no, no!!
Some food for contemplation;

A Rational Cosmology: The Errors of Empiricism-Positivism

Excerpt;

"Very mildly put, empiricism-positivism holds, as its fundamental tenet, that any assertion, no matter how general, depends on some particular observation. The empiricist-positivist will claim that one cannot make any conclusions about space or time without first studying advanced quantum mechanics. He will claim that one cannot make any generalizations about human nature independent of the historical context of any given time period. [moment -n]

As a corollary to this inseparable attachment of empiricism-positivism to some specific observations, this doctrine holds that man cannot be certain about anything, since, because all conclusions depend on specific observations, some future observation always has the chance of refuting one's present appraisal of anything whatsoever!"

****************

Another source of food for thought can be found here; PRAXEOLOGY AND CERTAINTY
OF KNOWLEDGE.


****************

And here; A Refutation of Empiricism and Conventionalism Altogether - Demonstrated following a Heideggerian Inquiry into the Split between Knower and Known

****************

Ultimately, the death of the notion of the 'universality' of 'empiricism' is the discovery, by QM, of Consciousness and the double-slit data.
And the 'discrete quantum' nature of all (unique) 'moments' (universes), and their synchronicity.

****************

QM has also refuted all the structural foundational support for logic.
Not only does 'A'='A', but;
'A' also does not = 'A'
'A' also sometimes = 'A'
'A' also can be in two places (and 'states') at the same 'time'.
And it depends on the observer and the moment of observation. It is not possible to have the same context from moment to moment. So, 'repeatability' is a fallacious notion (other than a Perspectivally local phenomenon). As is that the same results are to be expected from different contextx and different Perspectives.
'Empiricism' works at a local 'macro' level, a locally pragmatic level, for some. But it remains, untimately, based on a (religious type of) 'belief'.

The double slit data refutes all 'universal claims' of 'A', and those assumptions that we hold so dear and makes us 'feel' so stable and warm about our 'perceptions' (naive realism).
'Classical science' (all branches) must either download the latest 'critical update' offered by the revelations of QM, or fade rapidly into obsolescence!
It's a new world!
0 Replies
 
Patty phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2009 06:17 am
@hue-man,
Of course there is freedom. Isn't it obvious enough? What makes us rational beings if we are not free? is that merely a capacity to know things deeper than other animals but still is doomed to be determined? Our transmutative power over matter or use of it shows the existence of an intellect, which after having sufficient knowledge of things and situations, freedom acts as the consequential agent of the intellect for its actuality.
0 Replies
 
Richardgrant
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 01:19 am
@hue-man,
Consciousness is all there is, everything we see out there is a reflection of that consciousness, man has free will and choice, but the creator within has the right to balance that choice, this way all creation is in balance at all times . We live in a perfect universe, where all is ONE. Richard
evangelion
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 04:00 am
@hue-man,
the fact that we are discussing wether we have free will or not is the ultimate proof that we have free will becouse if we didnt have free will we wouldnt be able to dicuss such subject
nameless
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 04:19 am
@evangelion,
evangelion;54163 wrote:
the fact that we are discussing wether we have free will or not is the ultimate proof that we have free will becouse if we didnt have free will we wouldnt be able to dicuss such subject

No. Completely illogical. Non-sequitur.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 08:24 am
@nameless,
Free will, if we all started with equal ability, taught morals equally and in general had a very similar upbringing, would that effect our free will ? or even if we where treated badly taught nothing of moral values would our free will be different.Im confused about the will to decide my own destiny and the mundane questions of life.Is it the decisions and the causes we make or is that we have the ability.If i ask two people to stab the next man that comes into the room, our expectations would be different if one was a priest and the other a maniac, but they both have "free will".We dont judge because they have free will but the causes of their decisions.Mundane activity in the brain that causes us to pick a cup up or knock on a door is nothing like the considered actions or moral decisions we all make at crucial moments in our life.
Phronimos
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 07:45 pm
@xris,
xris;54192 wrote:
Free will, if we all started with equal ability, taught morals equally and in general had a very similar upbringing, would that effect our free will ? or even if we where treated badly taught nothing of moral values would our free will be different.Im confused about the will to decide my own destiny and the mundane questions of life.Is it the decisions and the causes we make or is that we have the ability.If i ask two people to stab the next man that comes into the room, our expectations would be different if one was a priest and the other a maniac, but they both have "free will".We dont judge because they have free will but the causes of their decisions.Mundane activity in the brain that causes us to pick a cup up or knock on a door is nothing like the considered actions or moral decisions we all make at crucial moments in our life.



Would it effect what we will/do? probably? Would it affect our will's freedom? No, unless our will was entirely predetermined, although some philsophers do contend that the two aren't incompatible, or at least that moral responsibility and determinism are not exclusive to one another.

Basically I think we look at a few things:

1) If X was coerced into acting as X did.
2) If X could have done otherwise.
and 3) if X acted in accordance with X's beliefs, desires, etc. In other words, if X did what X wanted to, when X's beliefs were X's own (and not say brainwashed or implanted into him by other agent). This ties into how much what X did was, in some sense, 'up to X.'

I also take it that we judge people based on whether or not we believe them to have free will, i.e. we'll either mitigate their moral responsibility or exempt them.
0 Replies
 
Patty phil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2009 02:40 am
@Richardgrant,
Richardgrant wrote:
Consciousness is all there is, everything we see out there is a reflection of that consciousness, man has free will and choice, but the creator within has the right to balance that choice, this way all creation is in balance at all times . We live in a perfect universe, where all is ONE. Richard



No, realty exists independently of a mind.
nameless
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Mar, 2009 03:08 pm
@Patty phil,
Patty;54354 wrote:
No, realty exists independently of a mind.

Really? Whatever your definition of 'reality', how can you ever 'know' that? There is no, nor can there ever be any evidence of anything 'external' of perception/mind.
All we perceive is perceived in mind. All the evidence demonstrates that there is nothing but that perceived. QM supports this. Logic supports this. Evidence supports this. What you have stated is a personal 'belief'.

Unless you can produce 'evidence', which is impossible, you needn't respond. There is no argument, and I do not critically discuss personal beliefs. They are that they are (in mind, like everything else).
Richardgrant
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Mar, 2009 04:59 pm
@nameless,
nameless wrote:
Really? Whatever your definition of 'reality', how can you ever 'know' that? There is no, nor can there ever be any evidence of anything 'external' of perception/mind.
All we perceive is perceived in mind. All the evidence demonstrates that there is nothing but that perceived. QM supports this. Logic supports this. Evidence supports this. What you have stated is a personal 'belief'.

Unless you can produce 'evidence', which is impossible, you needn't respond. There is no argument, and I do not critically discuss personal beliefs. They are that they are (in mind, like everything else).

The quickest way to end any discussion on creation is to demand proof of our excistance, where no proof is possible. We live in two worlds the seen and the unseen, cause and effect. where we see only the effect half of the cycle. Richard
0 Replies
 
Patty phil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Mar, 2009 07:58 pm
@nameless,
nameless wrote:
Really? Whatever your definition of 'reality', how can you ever 'know' that? There is no, nor can there ever be any evidence of anything 'external' of perception/mind.
All we perceive is perceived in mind. All the evidence demonstrates that there is nothing but that perceived. QM supports this. Logic supports this. Evidence supports this. What you have stated is a personal 'belief'.

Unless you can produce 'evidence', which is impossible, you needn't respond. There is no argument, and I do not critically discuss personal beliefs. They are that they are (in mind, like everything else).


Conceived and perceived are different words, and they have different meanings. When you conceive something, the mind forms the idea, wheraas when we perceive a thing, it is also an idea that is formed by how things came contact through our senses.

Though we cannot ultimately reject that all things may be simple sensations or ideas, it is absurd that one may post or join in a forum when he believes that he is the only reality.
 

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