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God Cannot Do the Impossible

 
 
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 11:05 pm
I thought of a pretty cool argument a while back, and I figured that y'all may like it. Obviously, I'm going to be arguing from Platonist Idealism.

If someone creates something, the logical sequence (even if there's no temporal sequence) is basically this:

Concept of the thing in the mind (Knowledge) -> Intention to create -> The act of creation

For example, take a carpenter. Before a carpenter makes a house, he first has to know what a house is. Knowing what a house is, he has to will to make one. Willing, he then creates it.

Likewise in God we find the same logical sequence. God knows all possibilities in knowing Himself. Knowing all possibilities in knowing Himself, He wills. Willing, He creates from all eternity.

Clear so far?

What is obvious from the above is that both knowledge and intentionality require a proper object. You must know a thing. You must intend that thing.

Going back to the idea of "the impossible." When I say "the impossible" I mean contradictions. I say that God cannot make it both rain and not rain at the same time in the same place under the same circumstances...and so forth and so on. Yet, there are those who say otherwise. To them I answer in this fashion:

Suppose for a moment that "the impossible" can be willed. Well...ok. Well what's being willed? "The impossible" is not. It is not an object. It is nothing. Ok. Therefore, if God wills the impossible, He must know, will, and create nothing.

Here's the problem though:

Summa Theologica, First Part, Question 14 wrote:
Since therefore God has nothing in Him of potentiality, but is pure act, His intellect and its object are altogether the same


God is the proper object (and the only object) of His intellect. If God knows nothing, then since God can only know Himself, God must be nothing.

Said another way: if God wills the impossible, then there is no God.

The moment you posit that God can will the impossible is the moment that you slip away into atheism.
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lakeshoredrive
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 11:21 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian wrote:

Said another way: if God wills the impossible, then there is no God.

The moment you posit that God can will the impossible is the moment that you slip away into atheism.


Good logic. And if God cannot do the impossible, then why call him God?

This only works, though, if you believe in the impossible. I believe that Nature is God, and nature rejects the idea of impossibility.
For example, you said that it cannot both rain and not rain at the same time. But define to me what rain is? When a certain amount of water falls from the clouds? How much water constitutes rain? There is also always moisture, or humidity, in the air. Is this rain? Where is the line drawn?
My answer, at least, is that no line can be drawn between raining and not raining. There is only an infinite spectrum between the two.
Bonaventurian
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 11:29 pm
@lakeshoredrive,
lakeshoredrive wrote:
Good logic. And if God cannot do the impossible, then why call him God?


The idea is that it's God's very Godness that prevents him from doing the impossible, insofar as God is defined as "He-whose-essence-is-to-be."

Quote:
This only works, though, if you believe in the impossible. I believe that Nature is God, and nature rejects the idea of impossibility.
For example, you said that it cannot both rain and not rain at the same time. But define to me what rain is? When a certain amount of water falls from the clouds? How much water constitutes rain? There is also always moisture, or humidity, in the air. Is this rain? Where is the line drawn?
My answer, at least, is that no line can be drawn between raining and not raining. There is only an infinite spectrum between the two.


This is all irrelevent, except perhaps for the first sentence. This works on a sheerly logical level. God can't make 2+2=5.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2008 06:09 am
@Bonaventurian,
excuse a me i have not studied philosophy but your questions beg the answer if there was a god he is the law..he is what he is..Its like saying im fred blogs but im not fred blogs...
0 Replies
 
jgweed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2008 11:05 am
@Bonaventurian,
Does it make sense to apply the concept of will to God? For then God must exist in time, since willing as we know it implies a desire for a future outcome, and since willing also implies potentiality?
Bonaventurian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2008 12:03 pm
@jgweed,
jgweed wrote:
Does it make sense to apply the concept of will to God? For then God must exist in time, since willing as we know it implies a desire for a future outcome, and since willing also implies potentiality?


I don't think so, as Bl. John Duns Scotus points out. If for Aristotle the God is the Divine Thinker who eternally thinks Himself thinking, then for the Bl. John Duns Scotus God is the Divine Willer who eternally wills Himself willing.

For us there is certainly a disconnect between will and outcome...but for God there isn't. The will and the thing willed for God are entirely the same.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2008 01:10 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian wrote:
I don't think so, as Bl. John Duns Scotus points out. If for Aristotle the God is the Divine Thinker who eternally thinks Himself thinking, then for the Bl. John Duns Scotus God is the Divine Willer who eternally wills Himself willing.

For us there is certainly a disconnect between will and outcome...but for God there isn't. The will and the thing willed for God are entirely the same.
You have to describe this god for you to make these claims..you cant describe him then deny him..it only fits your description what about all the other descriptions? A submissive creator whose only desire is to create..can a painter fortell your interpretation of his works???
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2009 10:54 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Well the Biblical God said it is impossible for him to lie.

1) could god make a rock to heavy for him to carry ?

2) could god make pi equal to exactly 3 ?

3) could god destroy himself ?

40 could god make a circular triangle and so on and so on??
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 10:54 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian wrote:
God Cannot Do the Impossible


If God cannot do the impossible in the logic you used then God can't do anything. So what is God then?
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 11:08 pm
@Holiday20310401,
I get this feeling after I've made too many posts in the God threads that transcendence is an all or nothing process of logic. Human imperfection is the superposition, and is therefore sane.

Perhaps since God has no empirical evidence, we rely simply on metaphysical rationale which relies on logical perception, well at least there's no reasoning anyways otherwise those who claim to be reasoning their way to understand God must have some delusions or mental conditions making them believe something that is not. This logical perception (it's simply just thought oriented perception that skips partial- objective experience) is limited to binaric concepts, because well, perception reduces simply to that... opposites. And so, God is flawed simply from that. It is the like the max (or min) to a quadratic expression, expressed from the two roots relatively speaking, and we are all that is in the middle, lol.

I mean, transcendence is really what metaphysics is dealing with here. There is no analog, only this binaric all or nothing formula to picturing this "ultimacy" we call God, who is either at the bottom or at the top. It's a very primitive way of rationally asserting the divine, as if it behaves like a corpuscle. and coicindentally (yes I know jg, there's no real connection) but it's fun to point out that this sensation, analog as it is, motivates the irrational undefinable middle to the quadratic expression sort-to-speak, in that there can be an infinite number of points or coordinates, but only two roots (or one I suppose, not that it matters).

Yeah, and I'll end my gambit with something I thought up a while ago; interaction with transcendence is latent. Theists eat those words!!! Hahaha!!!
0 Replies
 
neapolitan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 12:24 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall wrote:
Well the Biblical God said it is impossible for him to lie.

1) could god make a rock to heavy for him to carry ?

2) could god make pi equal to exactly 3 ?

3) could god destroy himself ?

40 could god make a circular triangle and so on and so on??


1) God is supernatural, He doesn't have fingers to pick up rocks.

2) I don't know about making 3 out of pi but God did create the universe out of nothing that like saying God created infinity out of 0.

3) God is perfect logic, eternal and immutable. He would not destroy Himself because that would give Him an end but would contradict His eternal existance, it's illogical so He does not think such things. He is also immutable so He can not change from the perfect something to a nothing, it is not in His nature

4) Yes give God a plane and a cone and He can make you a circle, a triangle and even a parabola or a point etc.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 05:25 am
@Bonaventurian,
1) It is impossiblility to imagine an impossibility.

2) Everything that can exist must exist

3) Everything that can happen must happen

4) We must know what we do not know

neapolitan


Quote:

1) God is supernatural, He doesn't have fingers to pick up rocks.

2) I don't know about making 3 out of pi but God did create the universe out of nothing that like saying God created infinity out of 0.

3) God is perfect logic, eternal and immutable. He would not destroy Himself because that would give Him an end but would contradict His eternal existance, it's illogical so He does not think such things. He is also immutable so He can not change from the perfect something to a nothing, it is not in His nature

4) Yes give God a plane and a cone and He can make you a circle, a triangle and even a parabola or a point etc.
1) God does not have fingers?? based on this he is limited!!

2) you don't know what PI is but you say he created everything from 0, how do you now this??

3) If God is perfect logic, why did he make rabbits eat there own excrement, that in not logic?

4) I said can he make a square triangle and you did not answer that

5) If God is unable to destroy himself he is limited?

And finally how can you speak for God, you are a mere finite mortal , and he is an infinite eternal.

"As the heavens are higher that the earth, so are the thought of God above those of man"

The heavens , if this verse referred to the universe, is a heck of a lot higher than the earth. As far as we know some fifteen billion light years
0 Replies
 
DJMaux
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 08:38 am
@neapolitan,
wow yes someone else who believes god created infinity out of nothing!
As for it is impossible to imagine the impossible. Maybe for us but not for god.
Two things. One..Nothing is the only thing in the universe that is impossible but god can imagine nothing. Even nothing is a possibility.
Nothing is not nothing it is something. It is what it isnt.
Its one big paradox.
Also god can do the impossible because infinity is impossible but it exists.
For example there are an infinite number of numbers. So it should be impossible for god to imagine all numbers because they never end.
But god can imagine all numbers.God can do the impossible.
Because even an impossibility is a possibility.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 09:31 am
@DJMaux,
DJMaux wrote:
wow yes someone else who believes god created infinity out of nothing!
As for it is impossible to imagine the impossible. Maybe for us but not for god.
Two things. One..Nothing is the only thing in the universe that is impossible but god can imagine nothing. Even nothing is a possibility.
Nothing is not nothing it is something. It is what it isnt.
Its one big paradox.
Also god can do the impossible because infinity is impossible but it exists.
For example there are an infinite number of numbers. So it should be impossible for god to imagine all numbers because they never end.
But god can imagine all numbers.God can do the impossible.
Because even an impossibility is a possibility.
Its only unbelievable thats all it is not a paradox.the only paradox is that you just destroyed the image of god by your impossibilities..
0 Replies
 
ILYAS TOXANBAYEV
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 03:33 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian;38368 wrote:
I thought of a pretty cool argument a while back, and I figured that y'all may like it. Obviously, I'm going to be arguing from Platonist Idealism.

If someone creates something, the logical sequence (even if there's no temporal sequence) is basically this:

Concept of the thing in the mind (Knowledge) -> Intention to create -> The act of creation

For example, take a carpenter. Before a carpenter makes a house, he first has to know what a house is. Knowing what a house is, he has to will to make one. Willing, he then creates it.

Likewise in God we find the same logical sequence. God knows all possibilities in knowing Himself. Knowing all possibilities in knowing Himself, He wills. Willing, He creates from all eternity.

Clear so far?

What is obvious from the above is that both knowledge and intentionality require a proper object. You must know a thing. You must intend that thing.

Going back to the idea of "the impossible." When I say "the impossible" I mean contradictions. I say that God cannot make it both rain and not rain at the same time in the same place under the same circumstances...and so forth and so on. Yet, there are those who say otherwise. To them I answer in this fashion:

Suppose for a moment that "the impossible" can be willed. Well...ok. Well what's being willed? "The impossible" is not. It is not an object. It is nothing. Ok. Therefore, if God wills the impossible, He must know, will, and create nothing.

Here's the problem though:



God is the proper object (and the only object) of His intellect. If God knows nothing, then since God can only know Himself, God must be nothing.

Said another way: if God wills the impossible, then there is no God.

The moment you posit that God can will the impossible is the moment that you slip away into atheism.

God is the Absolute. God does not have lacks. God is ideal. And that, God has created all ideally and absolutely. This world created by God is ideal. This universe or the only one thing or is still other universes, anyway all of them are ideal. God the Wisest. God does not have anything superfluous. Enough one ideal world means. In it sense of uniqueness of life (Principle of one life) according to Ibn Arabi (1165-1240).

Bonaventurian;38368 wrote:
Originally Posted by Summa Theologica, First Part, Question 14
Since therefore God has nothing in Him of potentiality, but is pure act, His intellect and its object are altogether the same

I have found the same at Ibn Arabi which considered that the universe is an interaction of Divine Attributes. The matter as something separate of God does not exist. There is only God and bearing.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 03:56 pm
@Bonaventurian,
ILYAS TOXANBAYEV wrote:
I have found the same at Ibn Arabi which considered that the universe is an interaction of Divine Attributes. The matter as something separate of God does not exist. There is only God and bearing.
Another statement of fact that defies reason..oh dear..
0 Replies
 
ILYAS TOXANBAYEV
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 03:59 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian;38368 wrote:

Clear so far?

What is obvious from the above is that both knowledge and intentionality require a proper object. You must know a thing. You must intend that thing.

Going back to the idea of "the impossible." When I say "the impossible" I mean contradictions. I say that God cannot make it both rain and not rain at the same time in the same place under the same circumstances...and so forth and so on. Yet, there are those who say otherwise. To them I answer in this fashion:

Suppose for a moment that "the impossible" can be willed. Well...ok. Well what's being willed? "The impossible" is not. It is not an object. It is nothing. Ok. Therefore, if God wills the impossible, He must know, will, and create nothing.

Here's the problem though:



God is the proper object (and the only object) of His intellect. If God knows nothing, then since God can only know Himself, God must be nothing.

Said another way: if God wills the impossible, then there is no God.

The moment you posit that God can will the impossible is the moment that you slip away into atheism.

This universe and the person including are created by a perfection and optimality principle. Here all is ideal and rational. If the rain does not drop out somewhere, rain loss there not perfect means and it is not necessary in absolute sense. You tell here about probably real, for example, sweet of sea water. Sea water unsweetened because the world in which sea water is sweet, it will be nonideal world, that is will have lacks from the point of view of God, means from the absolute point of view.

DJMaux;41774 wrote:
wow yes someone else who believes god created infinity out of nothing!
As for it is impossible to imagine the impossible. Maybe for us but not for god.
Two things. One..Nothing is the only thing in the universe that is impossible but god can imagine nothing. Even nothing is a possibility.
Nothing is not nothing it is something. It is what it isnt.
Its one big paradox.
Also god can do the impossible because infinity is impossible but it exists.
For example there are an infinite number of numbers. So it should be impossible for god to imagine all numbers because they never end.
But god can imagine all numbers.God can do the impossible.
Because even an impossibility is a possibility.

Here there is an important question of philosophy. Whether God can learn itself completely? Or God is doomed to learn itself eternally, because God the infinite absolute?
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 06:01 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Does God evolve does he know everything the eternal past present and into the eternal future.

If he does he must be an unhappy chappy with no challenges of his own.

I think the universe could be an ongoing experiment be God
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 06:59 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian wrote:
I thought of a pretty cool argument a while back, and I figured that y'all may like it. Obviously, I'm going to be arguing from Platonist Idealism.

If someone creates something, the logical sequence (even if there's no temporal sequence) is basically this:

Concept of the thing in the mind (Knowledge) -> Intention to create -> The act of creation

For example, take a carpenter. Before a carpenter makes a house, he first has to know what a house is. Knowing what a house is, he has to will to make one. Willing, he then creates it.

Likewise in God we find the same logical sequence. God knows all possibilities in knowing Himself. Knowing all possibilities in knowing Himself, He wills. Willing, He creates from all eternity.

Clear so far?

What is obvious from the above is that both knowledge and intentionality require a proper object. You must know a thing. You must intend that thing.

Going back to the idea of "the impossible." When I say "the impossible" I mean contradictions. I say that God cannot make it both rain and not rain at the same time in the same place under the same circumstances...and so forth and so on. Yet, there are those who say otherwise. To them I answer in this fashion:

Suppose for a moment that "the impossible" can be willed. Well...ok. Well what's being willed? "The impossible" is not. It is not an object. It is nothing. Ok. Therefore, if God wills the impossible, He must know, will, and create nothing.

Here's the problem though:



God is the proper object (and the only object) of His intellect. If God knows nothing, then since God can only know Himself, God must be nothing.

Said another way: if God wills the impossible, then there is no God.

The moment you posit that God can will the impossible is the moment that you slip away into atheism.

Didn't your mother teach you watch out for dog do when you were a babe??? First of all; I've done the impossible... It happens all the time... Impossible is only a degree of difficulty.... As far as Medieval philosophers defining God; they were only defining their understanding of God, which was not much, and no one believed anyway... People believe out of ignorance... The more the person knows the less inclined they are to belief... We may never know enough to be totally free from belief, but no one by choice should dwell there... The water sucks and there is no beer...
0 Replies
 
ACWaller
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jan, 2009 10:27 am
@Bonaventurian,
What would your definition of a contradiction be?
0 Replies
 
 

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