Is religion nihilist?

@jknilinux,

But enjoyment itself is so unimportant!
Making enjoyment your goal in life is like making brushing your teeth your goal in life.

I don't think enjoyment has anything to do with my rejection of nihilism (where by nihilism I mean that there is no purpose). It has more to do with a modified Pascal's Wager saying that "if there's no point, then what you do doesn't matter, so act and live as if it matters. If there is a point, then what you do does matter, so act and live as if it matters." Nihilism is kind of like solipsism- why bother believing it? If it's true, so what?

DA: So, are you cyrenaic?

William: Why do you want to pursue enjoyment at all?

2 Replies

@avatar6v7,

avatar6v7 wrote:

trite but meingless.

Trite? Words of truth cannot be spoken enough.

=
MJA

0 Replies

@jknilinux,

jknilinux wrote:

MJA- how does that relate to the topic?

So, out of curiosity, does anyone here think happiness is our ultimate goal?

Nihilism is a belief in nothing.
And well, religion is a belief in something, isn't it?
So I don't think nothing and something relate, do you?
Accept obviously they're both words.

And surely happiness is ultimately related to the goal of a good life.

=
MJA

1 Reply

@MJA,

MJA wrote:

Nihilism is a belief in nothing.
And well, religion is a belief in something, isn't it?
So I don't think nothing and something relate, do you?
Accept obviously they're both words.

I refer you to my above comment.

0 Replies

@jknilinux,

jknilinux wrote:

But enjoyment itself is so unimportant!
Making enjoyment your goal in life is like making brushing your teeth your goal in life.

I don't think enjoyment has anything to do with my rejection of nihilism (where by nihilism I mean that there is no purpose). It has more to do with a modified Pascal's Wager saying that "if there's no point, then what you do doesn't matter, so act and live as if it matters. If there is a point, then what you do does matter, so act and live as if it matters." Nihilism is kind of like solipsism- why bother believing it? If it's true, so what?

DA: So, are you cyrenaic?

William: Why do you want to pursue enjoyment at all?

Forgive me, for I had to look up what "Pascal's Wager" was. Admittedly, I have no idea of all his works, but my "signature" does fall in line, I think, with how he thought. I do have a tendency to get lost in so many philosophical discourses, in that they are just too confusing. I don't like confusing. Simplicity is the ticket for me. For me personally, to believe in God is not a wager. It's as sure thing. Even if it weren't, I would opt for the "belief" side of the equation. In a heart beat. The wager to me is the other side of the equation. IMO.

But to answer your question, "Do I want to pursue enjoyment?" My answer would be determined by "at who's expense". If what anyone defines as enjoyment is at the expense of another, it is not joy, it is selfishness and greed. IMO. Frankly, life should be a joy even if that joy is merely a sense of "self worth". If one "seeks" joy, what do you do when you find it? As I have said, we are dynamic creations and forward momentum is what life is all about and the living of that life as long as it is not the expense of another's opportunity to "live" their life. It is about a balance and unity of which this planet has never seen but should strive to achieve. IMHO. Smile

William

1 Reply

@William,

William wrote:

Forgive me, for I had to look up what "Pascal's Wager" was. Admittedly, I have no idea of all his works, but my "signature" does fall in line, I think, with how he thought. I do have a tendency to get lost in so many philosophical discourses, in that they are just too confusing. I don't like confusing. Simplicity is the ticket for me. For me personally, to believe in God is not a wager. It's as sure thing. Even if it weren't, I would opt for the "belief" side of the equation. In a heart beat. The wager to me is the other side of the equation. IMO.

But to answer your question, "Do I want to pursue enjoyment?" My answer would be determined by "at who's expense". If what anyone defines as enjoyment is at the expense of another, it is not joy, it is selfishness and greed. IMO. Frankly, life should be a joy even if that joy is merely a sense of "self worth". If one "seeks" joy, what do you do when you find it? As I have said, we are dynamic creations and forward momentum is what life is all about and the living of that life as long as it is not the expense of another's opportunity to "live" their life. It is about a balance and unity of which this planet has never seen but should strive to achieve. IMHO.

William

A much needed injection of common sense.:a-ok:

0 Replies

@jknilinux,

jknilinux wrote:

DA: So, are you cyrenaic?

I only have a little to go on - as this is the first time I have come across the term. I don't think so based on the introduction I read here:

Cyrenaics [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

I certainly don't regard myself as a hedonist - I tend to agree with Ambrose Bierce's view on such things.

DEBAUCHEE, n. One who has so earnestly pursued pleasure that he has had the misfortune to overtake it.

Quote:

As empiricists, they believe that all that we have access to as a potential source of knowledge are our own experiences. These experiences are private to each of us. We can have incorrigible knowledge of our experiences (that is, it impossible to be mistaken about what we are currently experiencing), but not of the objects that cause us to have these experiences. This results in their skepticism--their conviction that we cannot have knowledge of the external world.

I would say this is true.

EDIT: On second thoughts I think it is very much possible to be mistaken about current experiences - so I don't fully agree with them on this point.

Quote:

The Cyrenaics are unabashed sensual hedonists: the highest good is my own pleasure, with all else being valuable only as a means to securing my own pleasure, and bodily pleasures are better than mental pleasures.

But I'm not a fan of this sort of thinking.

I think really what I would value is a moral relativity, a flexibility toward beliefs. I like the philosophy of Schopenhauer and I'm a huge fan of John Gray (himself a big fan of Schopenhauer).

Nihilism strikes me as a freedom from belief - I think there is a base hypocrisy to it - in that it is a belief system too - but that sole hypocrisy strikes me as less apparent than the hypocrisy in other systems.

Because a true nihilist (if there could be such a thing) would start from a position of having no beliefs or values then he or she has to take what I see as a degree of responsibility for their behaviour - it has to be built up without using any excuses. I have always seen this as the aim of existentialism - you can't blame God or Satan or your parents or school teachers for what you are - ultimately you can only blame you.

And I think to some extent it helps you recognise that many of the most obvious and comforting things you might hold dear are just stories - it can give you a clearer sense of perspective.

For example I think William's idea that "the point of our existence is to create a reality in which all will enjoy life as they eagerly anticipate a better tomorrow" is a nice thing to believe in - I admire it and until a few years ago thought a similar maxim to "enjoy life and try and leave the world a better place" was a good one - but note how one man's better place is another's Hell. Humans differ in so many degrees about what "a better place" is.

I also worry, a little, if believing similar stories about, say, how we will all get wealthier, or how we can't significantly damage the environment, have got us into a rather awkward fix - and might mean a rather uncertain near future in which many will have to adapt their beliefs and values to survive.

In the meantime there is still love and humour and music and good food and all the other things that make life worth living - and I don't see how enjoyment on them depends on beliefs.

But I do accept that it is an austere way of looking things, and I reckon many might find it a gloomy or barren vision - but I personally, honestly find it liberating.

1 Reply

@Dave Allen,

But I am going to be generous and assume that you try and behave morally, so surely you believe in somthing more than pleasure?

1 Reply

@jknilinux,

I may get a little off topic here a little, but this just came to me and I want to post while it is still fresh, My apologies to the poster.

If I might interject something here perhaps it is the word "belief" people are having such a hard time with. Belief in "something" of the nature we aren't even close to understanding would naturally have it's antagonists. Considering it seems we are all from Missouri, (you know that state that's motto is "show Me") and we will not believe in anything until it comes up and bites us in the ass. It is understandable why "God" must give us a "sign" before we will believe. Now personally, I have seen my share and then some, but obviously there's a ton of folks out there who haven't. Let me give you just a little one. You'll love this one.

My inspection sticker has expired on my automobile and it is a crime in the state of Texas to drive on the streets without one. I just haven't gotten around tuit yet. I had to go the the market yesterday and the route I take is always the same and very rarely do I pay attention to anything on that route simply out of familiarity. But this time it was different. I noticed a "Crime Watch" poster that had always been there, it's just that I had never really paid attention to it before, not like I did this time. Instantly I thought about my inspection sticker and grinned because I knew it meant something. This is not the first time this sort of thing has happened to me. So I began to look out for the police. When I reached the next intersection, low and behold there he was. I maneuvered my vehicle in such a way that would block his vision to my sticker. In other words, I turned when I don't normally turn to insure that. Had I not been looking out for him, I probably would not have noticed him and continued on straight passing right by him giving him clear view of that poor, inspired sticker. Ha.

Now if you knew me, you would know I don't get in a hurry for anything. I have a mental pace I am extremely comfortable with and will not let another human being interfere with that pace. If I do, it will be my choice. Irrational thought, or external influences that alter that mental pace, makes me vulnerable in some strange way as if I am no longer "paying attention" like I should. Just like when someone tells me "they have a lot on their mind" makes me feel sorry for them. I know what that is like and it sucks.

Sorry to get off on a tangent, but how nice would it be for others to experience these "little miracles". It comes down to ones state of mind and how much is one that mind. To believe for me is easy, and I can understand why it would be hard for others in that they are going so fast mentally, they would notice anything. Belief is all they have and without paying attention, in many cases it just isn't enough, but it is a start that will enable you to slow down a little if outside inertia will permit you. The problem is every body is going too fast.

Sorry if I got off topic a little, in that I have a tendency to do that. I hope it helped in some way. Smile

William

1 Reply

@William,

As always, william, you bring a thoughtful, outside-of-the-box approach to our philosophical conundrums. Thank you.

You have pointed out an aspect of certain religions that I all-too-easily ignore: their proofs of God in the small things in life. I've never really thought in that way. I need to think on this some...

3 Replies

@jknilinux,

The universe is not as dull and unresonsive to the human needs and soul as materialists would have it.

0 Replies

@avatar6v7,

avatar6v7 wrote:

But I am going to be generous and assume that you try and behave morally, so surely you believe in somthing more than pleasure?

Who should I take as a measure of how it is to behave morally, and what does morally mean? I think such things are highly relative.

I suppose it's undeniable that I believe in various things - like whether or not someone is telling the truth or whether or not something tends to be pleasing or right.

But I don't think there is a single belief that applies universally, that I would want to live my life by.

0 Replies

@jknilinux,

jknilinux wrote:

As always, william, you bring a thoughtful, outside-of-the-box approach to our philosophical conundrums. Thank you.

You have pointed out an aspect of certain religions that I all-too-easily ignore: their proofs of God in the small things in life. I've never really thought in that way. I need to think on this some...

Jknilinux, you see, that's what is beyond doubt in my mind for I have been fortunate to witness entirely too much. We are all part of the same macro/microcosm and it is all linked. There is no way anyone could deal with the magnitude of that synergy. You just couldn't handle it. But I can assure you, it exists. Just thought I'd throw that in. Thanks again for your kind response.

William

0 Replies

@jknilinux,

"The problem is every body is going too fast."

I believe that's true too!
Thanks William.

This story is a little off tangent too, but that's truly me.

Hawaii Time

I had heard much about Hawaii Time and was fortunate to learn and experience some time ago. I packed light bringing only my swim suit, sandals, and a couple t shirts. But unintentionally as well as unknowingly I had brought something else with me, my big city speed.

From the moment I stepped off the plane I was blown away by nature's beauty, and only wanted to be One with her, I wanted to be Hawaiian. The party I was with, the reason I was there, had been many times and wished to show me all her splendor. We hurried here and there and filled our days with great fun but the pace was too much. And the pace or race began to take its toll. While lying on the beach hurrying to get tanned I got terribly burned. My sandals wore holes in my feet; they weren't meant for racing. I tripped and fell over things all in haste. I was getting cut up and bruised, and a rash broke out. I nearly broke my leg and my girl friends too playing "From Here to Eternity" in the surf. Mmm. Nature's beauty was killing me. Or was it something else, was it only me?

About day five whilst contemplating how I didn't fit in with paradise very well, ouch, I decided to Dawn a snorkel and go float in the surf hunting for sea glass. I found that the ebb and tide and motion of the sea was so comforting to me I moved with it for hours. I was being rocked like a baby in a cradle. It was so peaceful, so beautiful and wonderful I moved as One with the sea.

I came out of water that day a changed man. I saw the sway of the palms was the sway of the sea. I can see the ocean and sky are One and the same. With only a day to spare before flying back to the big smoke, the big race, I came to understand the importance of time of pace. I could see now the true beauty of a hula dance beyond the dancers, I see the sea. I found Hawaii Time, I found One, I found the sea, I found the beauty of nature, of paridise is me.

=
MJA
One

0 Replies

Is religion nihilist?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know