Is religion nihilist?

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Hi everyone,

In short, is it nihilist to make experiencing a mere emotion (in this case joy) the entire object and goal of our existence? Does this mean religion is nihilist, because our purpose is to just be happy forever?

Or, is there a more important, non-nihilistic goal for us, according to your religion? Or, perhaps emotions aren't really nihilist at all?

Any ideas for solving this are welcome! I'm especially interested here because it totally annihilates Pascal's wager...

Thanks! :cool:

EDIT:

Thanks, jgweed! My definition of nihilism may not have been entirely correct. Perhaps a better way to pose my question is to ask "Does religion lead to a near-meaningless existence?"

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@jknilinux,

To be frank, most religions don't promise unending joy forever. It's only certain christians who believe that heaven is eternal bliss in the glory of the Lord.

Muslims tend to give a more earthly account of a garden of paradise - but joy still seems to be something experienced as a result of interactivity with the epicurian delights on offer there - rather than something you "just feel - forever and always".

Hindus tend to figure on reincarnation as a different form of life - the type of which is determined by how you behave in your current life.

Many religions have theorised on a rather bleak afterlife - such as Hades of the Greeks, or the Hel of the Norse.

Nilhilism seems to be characterised by an absence of belief - in any beliefs or values or goals and so on. I doubt any system that stresses such things can be Nihilist in the commonly understood sense. Nihilism is about facing certain austere truths in regard to unbelief - rather than the rather odd visions of zealous belief.

However, i do think very few believers actually think very much on what an eternity of pain or joy would be like.

It seems a rather strange desire to me - to spend the rest of eternity in some opiated dreamscape. The point escapes me.

As for Hell - surely if just one individual were to spend eternity in suffering it would make God directly responsible for more suffering than any earthly tyrant. Even the combined suffering directly or indirectly caused by people like Hitler or Stalin would merely run to - I dunno - a billion or so years at most.

That's nothing in comparison to an eternity.

So it strikes me that believers in afterlives tend to have rather unimaginative - yet odd - attitudes to an eternity of anything.

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@jknilinux,

Nihilism is the repudiation of all values as such, so it seems inappropriate to call religion (which does have values) Nihilist. Maybe the position should be restated to say that any or some religions encourage unhealthy, shoddy, or "wrong" values.

1 Reply

@jknilinux,

jknilinux wrote:

Hi everyone,

In short, is it nihilist to make experiencing a mere emotion (in this case joy) the entire object and goal of our existence? Does this mean religion is nihilist, because our purpose is to just be happy forever?

Or, is there a more important, non-nihilistic goal for us, according to your religion? Or, perhaps emotions aren't really nihilist at all?

Any ideas for solving this are welcome! I'm especially interested here because it totally annihilates Pascal's wager...

Thanks! :cool:

The ultimate goal of life is living.

=
MJA

0 Replies

@Dave Allen,

Dave Allen wrote:

To be frank, most religions don't promise unending joy forever. It's only certain christians who believe that heaven is eternal bliss in the glory of the Lord.

Muslims tend to give a more earthly account of a garden of paradise - but joy still seems to be something experienced as a result of interactivity with the epicurian delights on offer there - rather than something you "just feel - forever and always".

Hindus tend to figure on reincarnation as a different form of life - the type of which is determined by how you behave in your current life.

Many religions have theorised on a rather bleak afterlife - such as Hades of the Greeks, or the Hel of the Norse.

Nilhilism seems to be characterised by an absence of belief - in any beliefs or values or goals and so on. I doubt any system that stresses such things can be Nihilist in the commonly understood sense. Nihilism is about facing certain austere truths in regard to unbelief - rather than the rather odd visions of zealous belief.

However, i do think very few believers actually think very much on what an eternity of pain or joy would be like.

It seems a rather strange desire to me - to spend the rest of eternity in some opiated dreamscape. The point escapes me.

As for Hell - surely if just one individual were to spend eternity in suffering it would make God directly responsible for more suffering than any earthly tyrant. Even the combined suffering directly or indirectly caused by people like Hitler or Stalin would merely run to - I dunno - a billion or so years at most.

That's nothing in comparison to an eternity.

So it strikes me that believers in afterlives tend to have rather unimaginative - yet odd - attitudes to an eternity of anything.

Good post Dave, If I might add we are dynamic creatures and any belief in a realm of perfection would bore us eventually. That is why I am of the opinion it is the journey that constitutes life itself and the eternal nature of that journey where ever it may lead. Joy is looking forward to tomorrow and in the sensations that expectation renders. For what it's worth.

William

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@jknilinux,

jknilinux wrote:

Hi everyone,

In short, is it nihilist to make experiencing a mere emotion (in this case joy) the entire object and goal of our existence? Does this mean religion is nihilist, because our purpose is to just be happy forever?

Or, is there a more important, non-nihilistic goal for us, according to your religion? Or, perhaps emotions aren't really nihilist at all?

Any ideas for solving this are welcome! I'm especially interested here because it totally annihilates Pascal's wager...

Thanks! :cool:

It seems you are focusing on Christianity more than other religions, and to this I point out that God is the equivalent of good.

When one follows God, one does good, which does not sync with nihilism.

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@jgweed,

jgweed wrote:

Nihilism is the repudiation of all values as such, so it seems inappropriate to call religion (which does have values) Nihilist. Maybe the position should be restated to say that any or some religions encourage unhealthy, shoddy, or "wrong" values.

jgweed-

I quote the dictionary:

"Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical position that argues that existence is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value."

I suppose religion in the sense I'm looking at it is not perfectly nihilist, since we do have a purpose (to experience a certain emotion), but it does feel nihilistic. I just couldn't find a better word for the futility in life that results from making emotion your goal. Also, I think you might be equating "the value in living" with "moral values", but I could be wrong.

MFTP:
But what is "goodness"?

William:
So you're saying that our goal is not to experience an emotion forever, but to pursue the experience of that emotion forever. Joy is the carrot we mindlessly pursue but never achieve, then? That sounds even more nihilistic to me.

Dave allen:
Do you then agree that those certain christian denominations that promise unending joy are somewhat nihilist? Perhaps the fact that God causes equal amounts of suffering and bliss (as you pointed out) shows that the purpose isn't to just give as many people as possible unending joy?

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@jknilinux,

jknilinux wrote:

jgweed-

I quote the dictionary:

"Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical position that argues that existence is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value."

I suppose religion in the sense I'm looking at it is not perfectly nihilist, since we do have a purpose (to experience a certain emotion), but it does feel nihilistic. I just couldn't find a better word for the futility in life that results from making emotion your goal. Also, I think you might be equating "the value in living" with "moral values", but I could be wrong.

In christianity the greatest goal is to do good, not experiance joy

jknilinux wrote:

MFTP:
But what is "goodness"?

Is what you would now ask me. I could of course say what is pleasure(or joy if you prefer), but I actually have an answer to the question. Goodness is its own answer- when we do a 'pure' good deed, one motivated simply by the desire to do Good, good becomes its own justification, above and beyoned explanation.

2 Replies

@avatar6v7,

You're right- that's exactly what I'd ask you next!

You said:

"Goodness is its own answer- when we do a 'pure' good deed, one motivated simply by the desire to do Good, good becomes its own justification, above and beyoned explanation."

I don't think that answers my question on "what is good?". Could you explain?
Also, in the afterlife, are you saying our main purpose there will be to do good?

0 Replies

@avatar6v7,

avatar6v7 wrote:

In christianity the greatest goal is to do good, not experiance joy

It appears to me that Christians follow a code of ethics in order to attain eternal bliss at the right hand of God. "Do[ing] good" in Christianity seems to be a means unto the end.

Quote:

Is what you would now ask me. I could of course say what is pleasure(or joy if you prefer), but I actually have an answer to the question. Goodness is its own answer- when we do a 'pure' good deed, one motivated simply by the desire to do Good, good becomes its own justification, above and beyoned explanation.

What drives the "desire to do Good"? Generally I would say the desire to do Good stems from the selfish desire to feel good with oneself, or to feel the joy of Good within oneself. You'd have a hard time convincing me that Good is an end unto itself.

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@jknilinux,

rhinogrey-

So we do good to feel joy, and to feel joy is our purpose. Do you think this is nihilistic?

1 Reply

@rhinogrey,

rhinogrey wrote:

It appears to me that Christians follow a code of ethics in order to attain eternal bliss at the right hand of God. "Do[ing] good" in Christianity seems to be a means unto the end.

What drives the "desire to do Good"? Generally I would say the desire to do Good stems from the selfish desire to feel good with oneself, or to feel the joy of Good within oneself. You'd have a hard time convincing me that Good is an end unto itself.

If you have never done a good deed that has made you feel ****, then you have barely made a moral choice in your life. Sure good deeds will make you happy in the end, if they didn't there would be no justice in the world. But if you think that this is 'selfish' you are wrong. Selfishness ultimatly makes you unhappy, I can assure you.

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@jknilinux,

jknilinux wrote:

rhinogrey-

So we do good to feel joy, and to feel joy is our purpose. Do you think this is nihilistic?

I'm not sure. I try not to attach labels to anything to the exclusion of anything else, because that's when you get yourself into hot water.

But to call this impulse nihilistic seems slightly shortsighted. I think anyone who would place blind faith in the hands of a religion has to see some inherent value in life, or their experience of life, or else why would they bother to seek this salvation? If there's no value to any of this, why would one take the effort to pursue a dogmatic ideal?

Forgive me if my understanding of nihilism isn't the most well-rounded, but those are my thoughts on the issue.

avatar6v7 wrote:

If you have never done a good deed that has made you feel ****, then you have barely made a moral choice in your life. Sure good deeds will make you happy in the end, if they didn't there would be no justice in the world. But if you think that this is 'selfish' you are wrong. Selfishness ultimatly makes you unhappy, I can assure you.

Don't be so quick to assume the presence of selflessness in the human experience. Define 'selfish.' Go a little deeper into the issue. Not only do I see myself as a thread within the greater fabric of humanity, I have come to experience myself in that way. The only way to experience humanity is through the Self, because there is no other gateway into experience. Perceiving mySelf as a thread of a larger cloth has helped me to harbor a general compassion for my fellow man, and my ethical development mirrors this sentiment. It is, however, only through my experience of mySelf and my Perspective that I can gain any insight into the human experience in general. Therefore, my conception of the Good can only be harbored through my own experience of it. A morally pure act which "makes me feel ****" (I think I understand what you mean by that) still seeks to enhance my experience of the Good through mySelf.

Selfish? Maybe not, but it's a semantical triviality. Everything is through the Self, there is no other.

1 Reply

@rhinogrey,

rhinogrey wrote:

Not only do I see myself as a thread within the greater fabric of humanity, I have come to experience myself in that way. The only way to experience humanity is through the Self, because there is no other gateway into experience. Perceiving mySelf as a thread of a larger cloth has helped me to harbor a general compassion for my fellow man, and my ethical development mirrors this sentiment. It is, however, only through my experience of mySelf and my Perspective that I can gain any insight into the human experience in general.

My problem with that is simply this; that if all we experiance is through the self, then surely that renders the concept of self meingless?

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@jknilinux,

Metaphysically speaking, I would agree. But at the end of the day, I still have to experience my own slice of the pie.

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@rhinogrey,

rhinogrey wrote:

Metaphysically speaking, I would agree. But at the end of the day, I still have to experience my own slice of the pie.

Then you have to recognise that in order for the self to exist it must exist in relation to exterior things, or how does it make sense as a concept.

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@jknilinux,

I clearly said that I see/experience myself as a thread within a greater fabric. I don't understand where you're going with this.

0 Replies

@jknilinux,

jknilinux wrote:

jgweed-

I quote the dictionary:

"Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical position that argues that existence is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value."

Dave allen:
Do you then agree that those certain christian denominations that promise unending joy are somewhat nihilist?

I don't think so - because surely they would in most cases point towards 'God's Plan' - which would imbue the eternal with purpose.

It strikes me as a bleak vision - but only because I don't have faith in a particular god - nor do I believe I could enjoy perfect eternal happiness whilst acknowledging eternal suffering (neither do many Christians for that matter - which is why I think the doctrine of Hell gets so much less press these days).

So I suppose I am serious when I say the proof will be in the pudding - if when I die my conciousness carries on in some form - and is given some kind of supplementary stage of existence to go through for which this life was just a testing ground - then I'll know.

But I personally suspect (and indeed, hope) that it'll die with my body.

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@Dave Allen,

But my point is that God's plan is bleak/nihilist because it uses happiness -an animal feeling telling me to keep eating and such- as an ultimate goal. Perhaps that's technically a purpose, but it's too bleak and meaningless for me. Kind of like saying our purpose is to learn how to build a car.

BTW, you're nihilist anyway, aren't you? Your last sentence seems to imply this.

2 Replies

@jknilinux,

jknilinux wrote:

But my point is that God's plan is bleak/nihilist because it uses happiness -an animal feeling telling me to keep eating and such- as an ultimate goal. Perhaps that's technically a purpose, but it's too bleak and meaningless for me. Kind of like saying our purpose is to learn how to build a car.

BTW, you're nihilist anyway, aren't you? Your last sentence seems to imply this.

The ultimate purpose is simply the Good, happiness being part of this

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Is religion nihilist?

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